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Lord Inquisitor
18-07-2011, 17:33
I know Storm of Magic isn't exactly watertight as far as rules go but I was wondering if I'd missed something in the book and if not how people were playing it and the pros and cons of each way.

1. Can cataclysmic spells only be cast by a wizard on a fulcrum? For example, if my Death mage gets onto a fulcrum and noone else has one, can all my wizards use the cataclysmic spells for their lores or only that one wizard?

2. If a fulcrum is assaulted and the occupying wizard is killed, can the fulcrum be then occupied by wizard from the assaulting unit? What if the wizard wasn't the one selected to fight (i.e. the occupying wizard was killed by a combat character)?

Matt.Wood88
18-07-2011, 17:38
To question 1: yes, only the wizard on the fulcrum can cast cataclysmic spells, and only from the lore he has.

To question 2: I would assume so, seeing as though they act like buildings but with only 1 model (wizard/runesmith) being able to occupy it.

Don't know if the second one is right as I don't have my SoM book to hand.
Hope this helps though!
Matt

Ramius4
18-07-2011, 17:42
To question 1: yes, only the wizard on the fulcrum can cast cataclysmic spells, and only from the lore he has.

Question 1. Not true. Any wizard can cast cataclysm spells, not just the ones in fulcrums.

The second part is not covered. I'd say yes personally.

The bearded one
18-07-2011, 17:42
Actually I have not found any rule stating you need to be on a fulcrum to cast cataclysm spells. Your army just needs to control a number of fulcrums in order to cast the different levels of cataclysm spells.

I'm not sure.. it's a bit of a strange thing.. fulcrums are buildings. If you assault a building and either kill or drive out the occupant, you can choose to go into the building with your assaulting unit. However I don't think you are allowed to put 1 specific model of your assaulting unit into the building. It's just one of those gaps in the core and storm of magic rules of things that simply aren't covered. The SoM FAQ better come soon..

NTJ2010
18-07-2011, 18:04
As others said, the caster does not need to control a fulcrum in order to cast cataclysm spells. Just have people in your army controlling the required amount.

As for the assaulting part, we've been playing it as if it's a caster that kills the wizard on the fulcrum (or runeperson) then they take it, otherwise no.
If the [assaulting] wizard is not in a unit then I'd say this is definitely true (as per the rules on assaulting buildings) but otherwise I haven't found a clear answer sense they'd have to leave their unit after the movement phase so not sure.

decker_cky
18-07-2011, 19:41
My gaming group has been playing that you need to be on a fulcrim to cast cataclysmic spells. It's one of those situations where GW likely thought it obvious, but forgot to actually write that. Arcane fulcrim miscasts are meant to be part of the risk of cataclysmic spells. I know that RAW doesn't actually state that, but I feel it makes for a better game.

NTJ2010
18-07-2011, 19:44
My gaming group has been playing that you need to be on a fulcrim to cast cataclysmic spells. It's one of those situations where GW likely thought it obvious, but forgot to actually write that. Arcane fulcrim miscasts are meant to be part of the risk of cataclysmic spells. I know that RAW doesn't actually state that, but I feel it makes for a better game.

I don't think they forgot because the High and Dark Elf spells make a lot more sense if they don't have to be on a fulcrum. (the dark elf one is basically attempting to destroy a fulcrum within 3"s of the caster, and one of the high elf ones creates a fulcrum for the caster to get on)

Lord Inquisitor
18-07-2011, 19:46
That's pretty much what I thought when I read through...there seemed to be the general feeling that you had to be on a fulcrum to get access to the cataclysmic spells but it didn't actually say it anywhere. Edit: Hmm, good point about the spells.

As for the charging fulcrum question, I think you have to permit a unit that charges a fulcrum and kills the wizard to plop a wizard in the unit on the fulcrum whether they are involved in the combat or not. Otherwise, the unit gets pushed back and has to wait until the next movement phase before the wizard can occupy the fulcrum - in which case if the opponent can move another wizard onto the fulcrum in HIS movement phase, it's impossible to actually take a fulcrum from the enemy!

decker_cky
18-07-2011, 19:48
The DE one doesn't make much sense, but making a new fulcrim beside another fulcrim works just fine. With supporting lore of shadows, the DE one works fine too.

I feel its a situation where GW easily could have forgotten to say you need to be on a fulcrim, but I don't think they'd forget to tell you if you didn't.

The bearded one
18-07-2011, 19:48
The DE spell alone is enough to assume you don't need to be on a fulcrum to cast cataclysm spells.. alongside the fact that the rules says "every wizard knows cataclysm spells in addition to their normal spells", and have no rule forcing you to be on a fulcrum. It'd be silly to assume you need to first build a fulcrum with the lore of shadows, then teleport onto it, and then cast this 25+ spell.


As for the charging fulcrum question, I think you have to permit a unit that charges a fulcrum and kills the wizard to plop a wizard in the unit on the fulcrum whether they are involved in the combat or not. Otherwise, the unit gets pushed back and has to wait until the next movement phase before the wizard can occupy the fulcrum - in which case if the opponent can move another wizard onto the fulcrum in HIS movement phase, it's impossible to actually take a fulcrum from the enemy!

It would make the most sense in order to let a game flow properly.

NTJ2010
18-07-2011, 19:55
It just seems clear to me that nothing requires you to have the caster on a fulcrum.
The way it describes Prescence, Equillibrium, and Dominance seems like it'd be hard to simply forget to include you need to be on a fulcrum.
Also makes it so slann are not screwed (they can only get fulcrums with skinks and bound wizards if they took temple guard). *shrug* unless GW says otherwise we are gonna keep playing it as you just have to have people holding it at my store.

Lord Inquisitor
18-07-2011, 20:15
I would play that a wizard normally unable to leave a unit would be allowed to do so in order to scale a fulcrum. The Slaan probably built the things in the first place!

FestHest
18-07-2011, 21:57
I have some other questions:
When on a fulcrum the model get a 3+ ward save. Does the wizards mount also get the save?

What happens when a grey seer on a bell tries to occupy a fulcrum?

AngelofSorrow
18-07-2011, 22:09
I have some other questions:
When on a fulcrum the model get a 3+ ward save. Does the wizards mount also get the save?

What happens when a grey seer on a bell tries to occupy a fulcrum?

the rule says the wizard gets the save, so I assume no. But maybe I missed something.

He can't. As he can't leave the bell and the bell cant leave the unit, and only 1 model can be on a fulcrum.
However he is a great platform from which to fire off cataclysm spells.

The bearded one
19-07-2011, 00:01
A wizard on a mount is 1 model. They are counted as a single charactermodel, page 104 BRB, so I would say yes. Yes it would get a3+ ward, all parts of it.

minionboy
19-07-2011, 00:34
A wizard on a mount is 1 model. They are counted as a single charactermodel, page 104 BRB, so I would say yes. Yes it would get a3+ ward, all parts of it.

The important part to remember here is that the wizard must be able to physically fit on the fulcrum. A lord on dragon for example, would have a difficult time standing on any fulcrum other than the eternity stair and balewind vortex, and that's only if you interpret "fits on" as "can balance on" with the base hanging off. Our group says fits on as the whole base needs to fit.

GodlessM
19-07-2011, 00:34
A wizard on a mount is 1 model. They are counted as a single charactermodel, page 104 BRB, so I would say yes. Yes it would get a3+ ward, all parts of it.

IIRC the rule says the wizard on a Fulcrum gets the ward save, not the model on the Fulcrum.

AMWOOD co
19-07-2011, 04:10
*Starts digging through models* Where's Galrauch? He needs to get in on this!

Edit: *Keeps digging* And Archaon! Need him too!

Lord Inquisitor
19-07-2011, 04:14
*Starts digging through models* Where's Galrauch? He needs to get in on this!

Ha! I was just thinking that. A wizard dragon with three breath weapons, a 3+ armour and 2+ ward save. Yeah, you're not getting that fulcrum.

Darnok
19-07-2011, 04:37
IIRC the rule says the wizard on a Fulcrum gets the ward save, not the model on the Fulcrum.

Then read again. It says "model", not "wizard".

Oberon
19-07-2011, 07:59
Ha! I was just thinking that. A wizard dragon with three breath weapons, a 3+ armour and 2+ ward save. Yeah, you're not getting that fulcrum.

With a simple 3+ wizard's duel you almost certainly can.

Spiney Norman
19-07-2011, 10:08
Then read again. It says "model", not "wizard".

Which is fairly important for when you have a runesmith on a fulcrum...