PDA

View Full Version : ward save? halberds? (WoC)



ivan55599
19-07-2011, 06:40
1. what is parry-save when people talk about warriors of tzeentch?
2. I've read some people using halberds with shields, but my logic and rulebook says that it requires 2 hands?:wtf:

NixonAsADaemonPrince
19-07-2011, 06:47
1: A quick check of the rulebook under Parry Saves in the equipment section will serve you very well.
2: While you are correct that the Halberd and Shield cannot be wielded at the same time (In fact the Halberd must be used as it is a special weapon) the Shield stills grants the armour save bonus outside of combat, which is obviously quite useful.

ivan55599
19-07-2011, 07:02
"hand weapon+shield=6+ ward save". but ward save is magic save, how it can affect in hand-to-hand-combat? I'm little confused, because I haven't yet played with magic or tzeentch (mainly against dwarves)

Bitten Black Sheep
19-07-2011, 07:34
There is no parry save when halberds are used.
The Mark of Tzeentch gives the warriors a 6+ ward which is stackable.
So the warriors get a 6+ ward from the mark. If they are using hand weapons and shields they will get a 5+ ward, parry + mark.

Bitten Black Sheep
19-07-2011, 07:35
PS Mr. Nixon
where is the Swiss seaside - is this how you stole the America's cup off us with a secret access to the sea?

ivan55599
19-07-2011, 07:45
There is no parry save when halberds are used.
The Mark of Tzeentch gives the warriors a 6+ ward which is stackable.
So the warriors get a 6+ ward from the mark. If they are using hand weapons and shields they will get a 5+ ward, parry + mark.

so in this case ward save...affects against magic? ---->shield blocks both normal and magic attack? does "ward save" itself mean more than just magic-save (resistance)?

Bitten Black Sheep
19-07-2011, 08:19
A ward save is a non-modifiable save against all wounds from any source, in addition to and after armour saves.
Magic Resistance is a bonus addition to ward saves but only against damage from magic spells.

Frosty_TK
19-07-2011, 08:22
A ward save is NOT limited to magic attacks, but instead usefull against ANY attack.
Magic resistance improves on ward saves, but the improvement only kicks in if the attack is a spell. Magic weapons, normal weapons, hazardous environment and your wifes frying pan may be saved by your armor or if that fails the ward save.
spells may be saved by the ward save plus any magic resistance present.

ivan55599
19-07-2011, 12:17
so if normal saves fail, you can re-roll those as ward saves? now I understand.

Munin
19-07-2011, 12:35
Armor saves and ward saves are totally different saves. IF a model has both then if he fails the armor save it can then use its ward save.

Ward saves helps against almost anything. However the Parry ward save (given by HW+Shield) only works in close combat.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
19-07-2011, 14:15
PS Mr. Nixon
where is the Swiss seaside - is this how you stole the America's cup off us with a secret access to the sea?

Yes I did and then I sailed off to hide in the dutch highlands :shifty:

The bearded one
19-07-2011, 16:48
The dutch have no highlands, in case anyone is wondering :p We've got small hills, nothing more.

A wardsave is basically a second save. In this case the parrysave provides a 6+ save, and the mark of tzeentch increases it to 5+. For example a chaos warrior with shield and the mark of tzeentch gets attacked, hit and wounded by a dwarf. You first take your 3+ armoursave. If you fail that, you take your 5+ wardsave.

Mike45
19-07-2011, 16:53
Can you use the halberds in the first round of combat with out the 6+ ward save then opt to swap for your hand weapon and shield in the second round and get the 6+ ward?

Surgency
19-07-2011, 16:56
no, you must use the halberds for the entire combat, as they are considered special weapons

Warrior of Chaos
19-07-2011, 16:57
1. what is parry-save when people talk about warriors of tzeentch?
2. I've read some people using halberds with shields, but my logic and rulebook says that it requires 2 hands?:wtf:

1. I'm thinking they are probably talking about the 6+ Ward Save granted by having the Mark of Tzeentch (which is stacks with other ward saves).

2. You can use halberds+shields, but only get the armor bonus against ranged attacks.

theunwantedbeing
19-07-2011, 17:02
Can you use the halberds in the first round of combat with out the 6+ ward save then opt to swap for your hand weapon and shield in the second round and get the 6+ ward?

First off, there is no weapon switching between rounds of a combat.

Secondly, you can only switch between special weapons. A hand weapon and shield is not a special weapon, a halberd is. So you are forced to use the special weapon all the time.

With the mark of Tzeentch on your warriors, you get a 6+ ward anyway.
With a hand weapon and shield on them, you get a 5+ ward save when parrying, because the mark of Tzeentch specifically states that it improves any ward save you already have by +1 (or provides a 6+ ward if you haven't got one).

Mike45
19-07-2011, 17:10
no, you must use the halberds for the entire combat, as they are considered special weapons

Can I choose what I want to use before the combat begins or I'm I stuck with the halbards?

Surgency
19-07-2011, 17:11
You're stuck with halberds

GodlessM
20-07-2011, 11:55
A lot of really basic questions that are clearly covered in the rules showing up these days.

Chicago Slim
24-07-2011, 14:34
Yep-- look up "Special Weapons", which I think is at the beginning of the Weapons chapter of the BRB (my rulebook's in my guest room, which currently has a guest in it, or else I'd cite a page #).

If a unit has a "special weapon" (which is pretty much anything other than a hand weapon), then they *must* use that weapon. The flavor-text is actually kind of cool: it takes extra training to learn to use a halberd, and so that's what the halberdiers will fight with (unless they have something *else* that also takes special training to use, like a spear-- I can't think of any examples of troops that have both halberd and spear, but the common example of "multiple special weapons" is Black Orcs, whose Armed to da Teef rule gives them both great weapons and extra hand weapons... and the ability to break the normal Special Weapon rules entirely, by preferring hand weapon and shield, if they also have shields...)

One notable exception to all of this is Brettonian cavalry, whose ARB specifically says that they can charge with a lance, and then switch to other weapons if they have them and choose to do so.

Point is: if you've got a cool weapon, you've got to use it (unless your specific rules say otherwise...)

T10
24-07-2011, 14:46
Check out the rules for lances.

OldMaster
24-07-2011, 15:13
The dutch have no highlands, in case anyone is wondering :p We've got small hills, nothing more.


Well, we've got rain. An awfully large amount of rain.

Heirube
27-07-2011, 16:05
With the mark of Tzeentch on your warriors, you get a 6+ ward anyway.
With a hand weapon and shield on them, you get a 5+ ward save when parrying, because the mark of Tzeentch specifically states that it improves any ward save you already have by +1 (or provides a 6+ ward if you haven't got one).

Is Mark of Tzeentch the only example of stackable wards? Only asking because I've never heard of that before. Otherwise it's usually Ward Save or Parry if you have both and failed your Armor Save against frontal close combat Wounding Hits, correct?

Ex. my hand weapon/shield skelly's have 5+ ward (Pha's Protection spell let's say) in addition to their 5+ Armor save (light armor and shield.) After suffering wounding hits from frontal close combat attacks at Str 3, they roll 5+ Armor save, any remaining wounding hits they then roll 5+ ward against but don't get any Parry Save since that would only be 6+ and the 5+ ward is used instead. Just making sure Parry doesn't typically stack with ANY ward save which would cause, in this case, the ward save to go from 5+ to 4+.

Thanks!

Lord Zarkov
27-07-2011, 16:08
At present MoT is the only ward save that stacks, and that is because it specifically states it boost any existing ward save as a separate point to it's own ward save. In other cases you must pick the best ward save as per the BRB

Tregar
27-07-2011, 16:25
Magic resistance ward save also stacks, and follows the same principle. For example, a guy with a 5+ ward save gets hit by a magic missile: he has a 5+ ward save. Now give him MR2: that increases it to 3+. Now give him Mark of Tzeentch: that increases it even more, to 2+.

Heirube
27-07-2011, 16:32
Excellent, thx Lord Z and Tregar!

ivan55599
27-07-2011, 20:42
"attacks/weapons are magical". things what I need to remember about them is ward saves and magic resistances. what else?

Tregar
28-07-2011, 00:16
You've put something in quotes that hasn't already been said. What are you referring to, ivan?

ivan55599
28-07-2011, 07:42
(to nothing). I mean for example daemons' attacks are magical. So what major things I need to know about it than ward save and magic resistance?

Frosty_TK
28-07-2011, 07:54
I'm taking a guess here:
If you want to ask whether magical attacks (e.g. close combat attacks or magical shooting attacks like skaven warpstone weapons) are hindered in any way by magic resistance: The answer is no.

Magic resistance helps against spells, and that's it.

Tregar
28-07-2011, 12:36
For example, Bloodletters have MR1 and 5+ ward save; this improves to 4+ ward save vs spells.

ivan55599
28-07-2011, 18:51
That I understood. But does magic- (daemonic- for example, not spells) attacks have then any special rules, if ward save affects also against everything?

Nkari
28-07-2011, 19:00
And just to be 100% clear..

Magic resistance can only be used against WOUNDS caused by magic spells.. It can not be used against anything that instantly kills you without doing any wounds.. such as Dwellers below.. etc..


As it is now imho, magic resistance is broken because it doesnt defend against half the stuff magic does.. unfortunatly..

Lord Zarkov
28-07-2011, 19:20
That I understood. But does magic- (daemonic- for example) attacks have then any special rules, if ward save affects also against everything?
No

Models with magical attacks sometimes have extra rules (killing blow from wight blades for example), but magical attacks themselves have no inherent properties - all boni or penalties are entirely provided by other rules that interact with them (e.g. ethereal is bypassed by magical attacks - but this is a property of ethereal, not magical attacks themselves)

Harwammer
28-07-2011, 20:57
@Lord Zarkov: does boni mean bonuses?

@ivan55599: Magic resistance works exclusively against wounds caused directly by spells. It won't work against wounds dealt by any other kind of magic attack (e.g. magic resistance won't save wounds caused by a magic weapon in close combat).

Akkristor
28-07-2011, 21:34
Slightly off topic, but slightly on topic.

Dragon Princes have Lances and Shields, and are mounted. during the 1st round of combat, they use the Lances. Afterwards, they switch to hand weapons, so do Dragon Princes, on the 2nd round of combat onwards, benefit from a 6+ ward save?

Lord Zarkov
28-07-2011, 22:29
Slightly off topic, but slightly on topic.

Dragon Princes have Lances and Shields, and are mounted. during the 1st round of combat, they use the Lances. Afterwards, they switch to hand weapons, so do Dragon Princes, on the 2nd round of combat onwards, benefit from a 6+ ward save?

No, the parry save only applies when on foot.

@ Harwammer: Yeah, I studied Latin when I was younger, old habits and all.

Frosty_TK
28-07-2011, 22:37
Only models on Foot can gain a parry bonus.

Akkristor
28-07-2011, 22:41
Only models on Foot can gain a parry bonus.

I thought as much, but I can't find anywhere in the core book that says so.

Tregar
28-07-2011, 23:09
Well, presumably you've found the section on parry saves on P88, so go and re-read it- all the way to the end this time ;)

Akkristor
28-07-2011, 23:15
aha! I guess i ended up just missing that last line there after the Frenzied stuff. thanks!