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adbower
06-04-2006, 15:54
Ok, here's the situation...


__AAABBB
__AAABBB
__AAABBB
CCXXXX
CCXXXX
CCXXXX

There are four units. A, B, and C against X.

Unit C is in the front of unit X.
Unit A and B are on the flank of unit X.

After a round of combat, the layout is as follows...

__AAABBB
__AAABBB
__AAABBB
CCXX
CCXX
CCXX

The question: Is unit B still in combat? Can they move away or declare a new charge on X?

Please let me know where in the rules this answer is derived from as I don't have my book with me at work.

Ivan Stupidor
06-04-2006, 16:29
This actually came up in a battle report (Chaos vs Dark Elves... I don't know the issue). They couldn't find a rule in the book to cover the situation, and they decided to resolve it thusly:

Units take appropriate tests (so, if Unit B somehow lost the combat, they would take a break test, even though they're not in base-to-base anymore). Any unbroken units that end up out of combat due to casualty removal may move as normal in their next movement phase.

neXus6
06-04-2006, 16:33
I know it's a long shot but wouldn't being in combat from more than one side just mean you have more than one frontage. Casualties are only "taken from the back" cause it's easier that way when engaged in the front. Wouldn't that mean that you just wouldn't take models that are engaged off?

Creating:
__AAABBB
__AAABBB
__AAABBB
CCXXXX
CCX
CCX

gukal
06-04-2006, 16:58
This comes up from time to time. It is best addressed by reference to the two Q&As below. Basically, a unit is released from combat once every enemy it has contacted (BtB) is destoyed or flees. If you've been fighting an enemy and a separation occurs due to casualties, you shuffle the combat so that you're back in contact.

**********************************

Q. I have two units attacking one enemy unit, one from the front and
the other on the flank. Due to casualties being removed, the enemy
unit now only has models in contact with the 'front' unit. Has this
legally brought my flanking unit out of combat and thus allow it to
make an overrun move?

A. No, there are still models remaining in the unit it is engaged in
combat with. In this case, the easiest thing to do is ‘fudge it’
slightly - just slide the flanking unit across a little so that it
is in contact with at least one enemy model.
S. Warhammer Chronicles 2004 page 112

*****

Q. I have two units attacking two enemy units all embroiled in a single
combat. During the combat one of my units wiped out the only enemy
unit which it was in base to base contact with. Does my unit still
count as being in combat, or is it free to act independently in
subsequent turns?

A. All units involved in a combat are subject to combat resolution and
resulting Break tests. However, if a unit is no longer in contact with
the enemy due to the elimination of the only enemy unit it was in
contact with, it does not count as being in combat in subsequent turns
and thus can charge, shoot, be shot at, and so on.
S. US White Dwarf #283 page 24 / UK White Dwarf #283 page 76

EvC
06-04-2006, 17:25
So in this situation the right thing would be to move A and B over a little?

Major Defense
06-04-2006, 17:42
So in this situation the right thing would be to move A and B over a little?No. The first of the two Q&As is for a single unit on a side of the reduced unit. I don't think that they want you to move models in unit A out of combat just for the sake of moving models from unit B into contact. So unit B moves on.


I know it's a long shot but wouldn't being in combat from more than one side just mean you have more than one frontage. Casualties are only "taken from the back" cause it's easier that way when engaged in the front. Wouldn't that mean that you just wouldn't take models that are engaged off?No.

neXus6
06-04-2006, 17:48
Well yes that is a fact models are taken from the back first only cause it is easier to do that than to take models off the front. :rolleyes:

And to me the "fudging it" could easily mean moving both units over a little.

Basicly what happens is whatever you and your opponent agree to at the time. If you agree to let B move then B can move, if you choose one of the other possible options then so be it. :)

Ganymede
06-04-2006, 18:42
Basicly what happens is whatever you and your opponent agree to at the time. If you agree to let B move then B can move, if you choose one of the other possible options then so be it. :)

Yep, that's the correct answer right there. That's how I've played forthree years now, by mutual agreement.

Festus
06-04-2006, 19:19
Hi

No. The first of the two Q&As is for a single unit on a side of the reduced unit. I don't think that they want you to move models in unit A out of combat just for the sake of moving models from unit B into contact. So unit B moves on.


... but note how the Q&A speaks about the *elimination of a unit*.

As long as there are models left in unit X (which B is in combat with), B has to stay in combat, and models from Unit X will have to stay in contact with unit B.

How exactly this works is not really addressed apart from *fudge it slightly*.

I'd simply slip units A/B or units C/X over a bit towards the middle.

Greetings
Festus

adbower
06-04-2006, 19:23
How would you "fudge it" if unit X is 20mm and A and B are 25mm?

To further describe my point... add what if there were three units?

__AAABBBDD
__AAABBBDD
__AAABBBDD
CCXXXXXXX
CCXXXXXXX
CCXXXXXXX

Does that mean D will sit there twiddling it's thumbs?

gukal
06-04-2006, 19:50
How would you "fudge it" if unit X is 20mm and A and B are 25mm?

To further describe my point... add what if there were three units?

__AAABBBDD
__AAABBBDD
__AAABBBDD
CCXXXXXXX
CCXXXXXXX
CCXXXXXXX

Does that mean D will sit there twiddling it's thumbs?


When the example becomes increasing complex, the notion of "fudging it" will become less and less satisfying. Eventually, you reach the point of just having to agree on the outcome.

In this case, since I charged a unit with four units and failed to break it (despite removing 5 ranks worth of models), I'd let the owner of beleagered unit X decide how to best shift the combat.

- Gukal

adbower
06-04-2006, 21:23
That made me laugh! :)

EvC
06-04-2006, 22:58
Maybe we should consider lapping round? So you move models from the back ranks of the front unit to the other side, then you move models from the flanking unit to the rear to keep them remaining in combat...

Major Defense
06-04-2006, 23:23
Maybe we should consider lapping round? So you move models from the back ranks of the front unit to the other side, then you move models from the flanking unit to the rear to keep them remaining in combat...That's not a bad idea!

Notice how "fudging" is always the very last resort that they mention using? I think that sliding all of the units over treads on other rule subtleties that I frankly find more important. For example, if a character in a challenge or a unit standard that was causing a 'models in contact' effect were on the edge of the unit getting shoved then the "fudgey" idea of sliding unit over will cause us to "fudge" the result of those actions and then everything gets all fudged up!

I don't think that it is unreasonable for the unit to just be out of combat. The second Q&A is stupid anyway. The overrun rule says that "if all of a unit's opponents are slain in the first round of close combat then it is allowed to make an overrun move" and obviously not all of the unit's opponents have been slain in that Q&A. So they were right but for all the wrong reasons. That's why the two Q&As seem contradictory.

Zilverug
07-04-2006, 07:52
Ok, here's the situation...
__AAABBB
__AAABBB
__AAABBB
CCXXXX
CCXXXX
CCXXXX

Unit C is in the front of unit X.
Unit A and B are on the flank of unit X.

After a round of combat, the layout is as follows...

__AAABBB
__AAABBB
__AAABBB
CCXX
CCXX
CCXX


As we play it, the layout after one round of combat would be

__AAABBB
__AAABBB
__AAABBB
CCXXXX
CCXXXX

and your problem wouldn't occur.

It's similar to bolt throwing the flank of a unit of chosen chaos knights: we are suddenly using files instead of ranks.

Pravus
07-04-2006, 08:13
The way I see it is that once in combat you would not normally change your formation (other than lapping round of course). For unit X I would say it retains its front rank width for as long as there are enough models to fill it. Once all of the ranks behind it are depleted only then will it start to shrink thus leaving the unit on the extreme edge isolated.

Major Defense
07-04-2006, 11:32
As we play it, the layout after one round of combat would be

__AAABBB
__AAABBB
__AAABBB
CCXXXX
CCXXXX

and your problem wouldn't occur.

It's similar to bolt throwing the flank of a unit of chosen chaos knights: we are suddenly using files instead of ranks.So you're saying that the way you play it is to ignore all of the rules and destroy unit X's ranks AND unit C's ranks in order to fudge a model from B into contact. Pardon me for saying but I think that idea sucks. I also noticed that you added to models to X and took two models away from C. Is this another 'models defecting' house rule you use?


The way I see it is that once in combat you would not normally change your formation (other than lapping round of course).Don't forget 'expanding frontage'.