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S_A_T_S
20-07-2011, 17:08
I am planning to use my Daemons to play some SoM over the summer, but I'm struggling with my 2k list:

Lord of Change // Flames of Tzeentch // 475
Herald of Slaanesh // Torment Blade // 95
Herald of Khorne // Battle Standard // 125
Herald of Tzeentch // Master of Sorcery // 125
Herald of Tzeentch // 115
20 Bloodletters // FC // 270
20 Daemonettes // FC // 270
30 Horrors // FC // 390
4 Flamers // 140

Dark Emissary 210
Fenbeast Lifebloom Silt 90
Giant 200

I look at this and think "I have a unit for each of my fulcrums, another to advance with the giant, flamers, fenbeast and LoC to attack the enemy fulcrums, but do I have too many wizards?" I plan on putting the Dark Emissary and a Tzeentch herald on a fulcrum each, but then I effectively have 3 more wizards running about. Even with 4D6 power dice, can I support 5 wizards? Does it matter? One of the tzeentch heralds has to stay with the horrors to give them 4+ ward, and the other heralds stay with their fellows to give them the relevant bonuses.

HalfBlood
20-07-2011, 18:02
Looks solid, I am not a big fan of daemonettes, so I would remove them and the herald. To increase flamer squad to 6, and then to add another squad of 6. IMO i would include master sorcery on LoC

dragonet111
20-07-2011, 18:17
Your herald with master of sorcery is 140 not 125.

The LoC being only Lvl 2 is useless. Add master of sorcery and/or spell breaker to both your Heralds of Tzeentch. It's always useful to have some spell breakers in your list. Even more during a SoM.

You can use the spare points to add more flamers. I think big units of flamers are going to be really good to get rid of a wizard on a fulcrum.

S_A_T_S
20-07-2011, 22:36
I like to use Life with Master of Sorcery, to get regrowth. I can easily swap that round, and drop the flames of tzeentch for a spell breaker.

I thought the LoC would be useful, as he is a monster and a magic user, so he can assault AND capture a fulcrum from an enemy wizard. The reason I didn't give him MoS was that he has Loremaster (Tzeentch). Glean Magic against someone on a fulcrum? Cataclysm spells on 7+? Yes please!

Halfblood, when I drop the daemonettes, I will have bloodletters protecting 1 fulcrum and horrors on the other and no other regiments, just monsters and flamers. Is that going to be good in SoM? I'm worried about large enemy regiments (O&G, Skaven) tying up my beasties and out manoeuvring me.

Skulltakerx
23-07-2011, 01:53
You do need MOS on your lord of change. Really don't need the bsb at this point level. Take off torment blade and add siren song to your herald of slaanesh. Great for redirecting enemy units and making that all important flank charge go off that you may need. On your MOS tzeentch herald add winged horror. Find the points you are going to need for the icon of sorcery on your pink horrors. +1 to cast for the unit is great. Especially if you are going to try to cast cataclysm spells with the horrors.

Ramius4
23-07-2011, 02:04
After having played a couple games I will quote the most important thing you asked by far.


but do I have too many wizards?"

Yes.

Even your Level 1 wizards in a SoM game have a minimum of 5 spells available per turn between seven sigils of summoning, the 3 cantrips and your normal spell. Then there's cataclysm spells, which you'll most likely be able to cast the presence and equilibrium ones most turns. That brings your level 1 wizards up to 7 spells to choose from when casting and possibly 8 if you get dominance...

You need 3 wizards max I'd say. 4 if you want a backup.

My first game using Empire I had brought a level 4 and a pair of level 2 mages. I counted the spells available to me on that first turn (with equilibrium) and it comes out to 26... With an average of 14 power dice each phase, there's just no possible way to cast even a third of them on any given turn unless you're a Slann with the extra dice.

HalfBlood
23-07-2011, 05:25
Even with the slann i feel its a hard bargin. I have played alot more storm of magic games and a rule that shocked me was when a player is rolling for cata spells, the spell cannot be casted with irrisable force. The caster must exceed the casting level, however when 2 6s are rolled the player must roll of the miscast table. With this said I feel you should bring less wizards, AND do NOT bring the spellbreaker. In the same section it says that dispel scrolls and such are not allowed to dispell cata spells. I figure players will be more likely to cast cata spells so why waste the points.

Another idea is to give HoK firestorm blade(great vs high armor units, and regen units + cheap price) give him armor of khorne aswell.

Buff up the Bl squad to 30, change flames of Tzeencth to twin heads, and give him master sorcery, now i read your post about the 7+ Glean magic. The reason i dislike this, is you still have to cast their spell so your paying 7+ followed by a 20-30+ which will most likely cause you to get a irrisiable force. Now the faq says the opponent cant dispel the spell caused by Glean magic, but i would say it would be better to just have a lore for yourself.

S_A_T_S
23-07-2011, 10:58
Ok, so general advice is "Too many wizards!", mainly based on there not being enough dice to cast all your spells. My major problem, I think, is that the horrors are wizard 4 and their Herald (to get 4++) is wizard 5. Horrors can't capture fulcrums and if they want to keep their 4++, neither can their Herald. The other 3 wizards (Emissary, LoC and 1st HoT) are there to cap fulcrums.

Should I then drop Wizard 5, HoT? This means the Horrors only get a 5++, not 4++, but gives me 115 points more to spend, reduces my channeling attempts by one and reduces the ridiculous number of spells I have to choose from every turn (that last one is a good thing, even though it doesn't sound like it).

If I drop him, what do I spend the extra points on? Two Heads for LoC? More Bloodletters? Beefing up the HoK? Siren Song? Even more Flamers? Someone mentioned giving a HoT Winged Horror. Wouldn't mounting them on a Disc be better? Same price, same fly rules, bonus 6+ armour save and extra attack. I only have 20 BL models and 6 Flamer models (not the biggest army, but I can't afford to spend too much, as I have a wedding to save for) but I could proxy some extras.

To address a couple of points above:
Halfblood, Glean Magic does NOT require you to spend dice casting the spell you steal. Pg.61 of DoC book - "The caster may immediately cast one of the target's spells as if it were his own - the spell is automatically cast as its basic casting value." I'd also like to point out pg.2 of the current FAQ:
Q. When a Tzeentch Wizard successfully casts Glean Magic, does
the enemy have the option of dispelling the spell cast by it? (p61)
A. No.
This means it is actually possible to cast a cataclysm spell with Irresistible Force.

Skulltakerx, Horrors can't claim a fulcrum, therefore they can't cast cataclysm spells.

Skulltakerx
23-07-2011, 15:35
Once they become a single model they can. But they would cast them at its basic casting value, as a "bound" spell.

dragonet111
25-07-2011, 06:29
I'm curious to know how you are going to justify this knowing horrors have to be at least 5 to be a wizard Lvl1??

Skulltakerx
25-07-2011, 08:07
Think of the blue scribesm they have no caster level but they are still wizards in a respects. Just cast at basic casting value.

In turn, the same would go for that lone pink horror. Its still considered a wizard, but when in a larger unit it gains casting levels. Granted lower than 10 you can't cast anything from the lore of tzeentch AB spells but you WOULD be able to cast the cataclysm spells.

Justification? Yes. Your thoughts.

dragonet111
25-07-2011, 09:15
Blue scribes are special characters with special rules (and they are Blue horrors not Pink, but arguing on that is a bit pedantic ;))

The FAQ says lvl0 sorcerer are still sorcerer (you can channel, ....). So your single horror should be able to cast cataclysmic spells.

But

the rules for cataclysmic spells say you have to generate/know spell/spells from a lore to know cataclysmic spells and a single horror generate no spell and thus doesn't know cataclysmic spells.

Edit. that and the fact that the FAQ says a Lvl0 wizard can't cast spell.

thesheriff
25-07-2011, 09:24
Blue scribes are special characters with special rules (and they are Blue horrors not Pink, but arguing on that is a bit pedantic ;))

The FAQ says lvl0 sorcerer are still sorcerer (you can channel, ....). So your single horror should be able to cast cataclysmic spells.

But

the rules for cataclysmic spells say you have to generate/know spell/spells from a lore to know cataclysmic spells and a single horror generate no spell and thus doesn't know cataclysmic spells.

Edit. that and the fact that the FAQ says a Lvl0 wizard can't cast spell.

However, when you roll 11-12 on the regular miscast table, and when you become a lv.0, you cease to be a wizard. So, counter argument prehpas?

And the Blue scribes isnt a wizard to my knowlege. Just a charecter that has an inate bound spell (like a treeman or treeman anccient has treesinging).

thesheriff

Dnjyrl
25-07-2011, 12:19
Problem i've come across with daemons in storm of magic is that they dont have any suitable magic users for teh fulcrams. Sure you can put teh heralds on them but htey arent great spell casters and also your wasting the locus rules which makes the units they join so much better.

Personally i'd take plague bearers of daemonettes and have a herlad of nurgle bsb so you have a rock solid unit. I also agree with Master of Sorcery and more famers

Skulltakerx
26-07-2011, 07:22
Problem i've come across with daemons in storm of magic is that they dont have any suitable magic users for teh fulcrams. Sure you can put teh heralds on them but htey arent great spell casters and also your wasting the locus rules which makes the units they join so much better.


Huh? There are plenty of wizards in daemons that you can use. lets see.....Kairos, LoC, Daemon Princes, Great Unclean Ones, and keepers of secrets, just in the lords. then there are HoTz, HoS, and HoN.

8 suitable casters that can rock if set up right.

Sectux
26-07-2011, 13:42
I have played 4 games against daemons lately. I can see where they have their weaknesses, as their heralds are setup to be mist effective in a unit, and cannot do that on a fulcrum. Just remember that although a unit of horrors cannot take a fulcrum, they can still duel an opposing wizard off of one. That can give you a great advantage to get those dominance spells off.

Try using the LoC as a fulcrum sitter, not a taker. As a Greater daemon he can still thunderstomp most things that try to get him, and as a T6 monster should be tough to kill. Keep him with tzeentch to get glean magic, and rock out with mega spells for cheap costs. Add in a herald with heavens to get foresight and comet (that is so effective against a single model on a fulcrum) and stand back and magic them off.

S_A_T_S
27-07-2011, 11:38
I hadn't really thought of Plaugebearers, but they would actually be a better choice than daemonettes if they are only going to sit back and defend... I think I just cut them out of my mind completely when it became 'regen OR ward' instead of 'regen AND ward'.

Using Horrors to magic duel is something I didn't think of, that's pretty good, but are you sure u wouldn't send the LoC out as a taker? I suppose keeping a monster back to help defend fulcrums (at least his own...) might be a good idea. I could always give that Master of Sorcery to the disc mounted herald.

Considering taking a chimera instead of the giant, at least for my first few games (mainly because I don't have a giant model, but do have the griffin from IoB - see that elf? He's actually another head...). I'm worried about the LD5 on him tho. Anyone got any thoughts?