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blackstork
21-07-2011, 11:47
Hello there,
In my last battle I placed 20 (yes! twenty) Warlock Engineers in unit of 10 Stormvernin. Heroes were first 4 ranks.
My opponent used bolt throwers and shot at my unit. My question is, shoud the bolt penetrates ranks of Warlock Engineers or only Stormvernins? If we have one/two heroes in unit, they are not a target, so...?

Mid'ean
21-07-2011, 11:55
Yeah. One or two in the unit. A unit/ranks made up of characters/heroes your engineers take the hits. If each rank is all characters you would randomize which one is hit. If they are all the same "Warlocks" then just put a hole in each one as the bolt goes thru.....:evilgrin:

theunwantedbeing
21-07-2011, 13:03
The bolt thrower rules are quite clear on this you know.
It's not even difficult to find in the rulebook it's on page eleventy-one.

Jolly Puggles
22-07-2011, 17:54
The real question is why, in the unspeakable name of the Horned Rat, did you have 20 Warlocks in a unit of Stormvermin? The only conceivable reason I can come up with is that you were fighting in a battle where points and army composition were not an issue and you wanted a unit of Warlock-Augmented Weapons. I've discounted the possibility of you wanting a unit of Warplock Pistoliers or Warprifles because Jezzails are cheaper and better than the Rifles and you don't need a Standard bearer for a unit of Pistoliers (and having a Standard Bearer is the only reson I can come up with for having them attached to Stormvermin rather than as an independant unit of characters). Even if I'm correct, it still begs the question of why...a unit of WS:3, S:4, A:2 characters at 60pts apiece is a flagrant waste of points (but then, under my premise, you're discounting point values). Even if you've gone for unequipped Warlocks, that's still 300pts (without counting the cost of the Stormvermin)...for the same price you could get three times as many Clanrats with Spear and Shield...that's three times as many models with a better armour save and fighting in more ranks at the same WS and S. The only thing the Warlocks have on the Clanrats is twice the number of Wounds per model...and even on that front the Clanrats win because, as a unit, they have more total Wounds than the Warlocks.

I know it's nothing to do with the question you've asked OP, but can you please explain? It's hurting my head!

EDMM
22-07-2011, 19:39
Wound Allocation?

Enemies can only do a maximum of 10 wounds to that unit in any combat phase, assuming the enemy models all strike at the same Initiative.

Enemies may indeed inflict less than that.

GodlessM
22-07-2011, 20:01
Wound Allocation?

Enemies can only do a maximum of 10 wounds to that unit in any combat phase, assuming the enemy models all strike at the same Initiative.

Enemies may indeed inflict less than that.

Not true at all. The command of the main unit have to go in the front rank meaning that attacks against them can go up to 10 wounds alone, and then any attacks allocated against individual Warlocks can increase that.

Trigger87
22-07-2011, 20:19
I think we can assume he didn't purchase any of the command upgrades for the stormvermin

Ravenar
22-07-2011, 20:46
Couldn't he have the unit upgrades and just simple "Make Way" at the start of combat with any 3 of the characters?

Kaiserdean
22-07-2011, 21:57
Couldn't he have the unit upgrades and just simple "Make Way" at the start of combat with any 3 of the characters?

BRB Page 92.

The three (or less) command models must always be in the front. The rest of the characters fill in behind.

If he has a full command and is five models wide, he'll have two Engineers in the front rank, then five in the next rank and so on.

Since there are five different models in the front rank, I think he would have to randomize to see if the bolt thrower hit a engineer or the unit in the first rank. Engineer in the second rank. Engineer in the third rank. Randomize in the fourth rank. Unit in the fifth rank.

Lord Inquisitor
22-07-2011, 22:17
Couldn't he have the unit upgrades and just simple "Make Way" at the start of combat with any 3 of the characters?

Yes, in combat. I've pondered this sort of madness with Skaven before. I make the front rank characters when using Ogres all the time but Skaven? Hmm.

decker_cky
22-07-2011, 22:18
Make way lets you push characters back still. It specifies that it even works on command models.

You know you'll run into someone with the sword of anti-heroes when you play that unit.

Kaiserdean
22-07-2011, 22:19
Make way lets you push characters back still. It specifies that it even works on command models.

You know you'll run into someone with the sword of anti-heroes when you play that unit.

That's true in combat, however, the OP's question was about bolt thrower shots.

TheRolfgar
23-07-2011, 04:26
That's true in combat, however, the OP's question was about bolt thrower shots.

And the bolt thrower rules are very clear as to what happens, it hits the unit (thats the regular rank and file units) regardless of where the characters are.

Yrrdead
23-07-2011, 04:38
And the bolt thrower rules are very clear as to what happens, it hits the unit (thats the regular rank and file units) regardless of where the characters are.

I think you might want to reread the bolt thrower rules.

blackstork
23-07-2011, 16:55
The real question is why, in the unspeakable name of the Horned Rat, did you have 20 Warlocks in a unit of Stormvermin? The only conceivable reason I can come up with is that you were fighting in a battle where points and army composition were not an issue and you wanted a unit of Warlock-Augmented Weapons. I've discounted the possibility of you wanting a unit of Warplock Pistoliers or Warprifles because Jezzails are cheaper and better than the Rifles and you don't need a Standard bearer for a unit of Pistoliers (and having a Standard Bearer is the only reson I can come up with for having them attached to Stormvermin rather than as an independant unit of characters). Even if I'm correct, it still begs the question of why...a unit of WS:3, S:4, A:2 characters at 60pts apiece is a flagrant waste of points (but then, under my premise, you're discounting point values). Even if you've gone for unequipped Warlocks, that's still 300pts (without counting the cost of the Stormvermin)...for the same price you could get three times as many Clanrats with Spear and Shield...that's three times as many models with a better armour save and fighting in more ranks at the same WS and S. The only thing the Warlocks have on the Clanrats is twice the number of Wounds per model...and even on that front the Clanrats win because, as a unit, they have more total Wounds than the Warlocks.

I know it's nothing to do with the question you've asked OP, but can you please explain? It's hurting my head!

The answer is in close combat... and my wallet. This unit suffer max 10 wounds in a round of combat and still has more ranks than enemy. I can use Stedfast and hold much stronger unit. And I don't have too many models (cash my dears...), so I didn't run with Clanrats. I put this unit before Dwarfs army. I hold a horde of Dwarf Warriors with powerful lord for a few turns, which probably made me winner.

NTJ2010
24-07-2011, 09:15
The answer is in close combat... and my wallet. This unit suffer max 10 wounds in a round of combat and still has more ranks than enemy. I can use Stedfast and hold much stronger unit. And I don't have too many models (cash my dears...), so I didn't run with Clanrats. I put this unit before Dwarfs army. I hold a horde of Dwarf Warriors with powerful lord for a few turns, which probably made me winner.

If anyone tried 20 engineers in a unit I'd say then those better be the models.
They can do more than 10 wounds per combat if they have models with different initiatives and assuming they are only fighting you on the front.

I was thinking of all the Eye of the Gods rolls but then I noticed it had to be in a challenge and I can't imagine the engineers accepting a ton...

wingate32
24-07-2011, 17:57
Just a quick question: What would happen if the stormvermins were killed by something. Would the Warlock engineers form their own unit and could another character, say a cheiftan, join their unit?

Think about it, a unit consisting of a warlord on foot surrounded by 19 warlock engineers :cool:

theunwantedbeing
24-07-2011, 19:02
Just a quick question: What would happen if the stormvermins were killed by something. Would the Warlock engineers form their own unit and could another character, say a cheiftan, join their unit?

Think about it, a unit consisting of a warlord on foot surrounded by 19 warlock engineers :cool:

It happens exactly as the rules say it happens.
They stay as a unit.

Character's are allowed to form units of just character's in 8th afterall.

wingate32
24-07-2011, 19:41
It happens exactly as the rules say it happens.
They stay as a unit.

Character's are allowed to form units of just character's in 8th afterall.

Great, thx. I couldn't find it anywhere in the BRB.

sulla
25-07-2011, 06:56
What a nightmare if the unit is hit by a spell that hits each model, say flames of the phoenix or soul stealer. Imagine trying to keep track of the wounds on each character...

Heeros
25-07-2011, 07:30
Character's are allowed to form units of just character's in 8th afterall.

Really? Can you give me a page reference? This gives me an interesting idea... I mean, who wouldn´t like über character units! (disclaimer: I know it would prolly suck :D )

Mr_Rose
25-07-2011, 23:04
Really? Can you give me a page reference? This gives me an interesting idea... I mean, who wouldn´t like über character units! (disclaimer: I know it would prolly suck :D )
Page 97, "Characters and Units" heading, first paragraph under "What unit can I join?" subheading, last sentence or two.

Feefait
26-07-2011, 01:31
If I played someone who did this... well I wouldn't, but say I did... and they tried to say the engineers couldn't be hit till I killed the stormvermin that'd end the game right there. That's maximizing cheese. Can you also please explain how 20 engineers bought individually is less than a box of clanrats or sv?
As far as allocating wounds on a unit of characters if its over 5 it should be treated as a unit of multiwound models, not characters. So if a spell does a wound to each and it does 10 wounds remove 5 heroes. Gah this whole thing hurt my brain.

Tregar
26-07-2011, 04:15
No need to stress out over this "tactic". It's spending 300 points to give a unit a tiny bit more survivability. Much better than topping up the Stormvermin to 60-80 models and making them a ridiculous deathstar that you'll probably never get any points from...

decker_cky
26-07-2011, 04:43
How is it better than anything? It means there's a ton of useless models you easily get 15 pts from. People take the Sword of Anti-Heroes too, so decently often, you'll be making opponents S10 A10 to carve through and get those points. Engineers don't really add anything to the unit to make it worth it.

Domandi
26-07-2011, 14:38
except that the hero with that sword can only attack one engineer(unless he can directly attack the stormvermin. So that is 10 S10 attacks on a t3 2w character.

decker_cky
26-07-2011, 15:25
He can allocate the attacks as he sees fit among models in base to base contact. 3 attacks on each of two engineers, and 4 on a third will likely mean 3 dead engineers.

Harwammer
26-07-2011, 21:50
That's 6 CR and a few VP earned! This is the problem with using characters as units; unlike proper units each character model killed gives away vp. Proper units don't give away even 1vp until the last model is gone.

Domandi
27-07-2011, 03:19
Decker, is that new in 8th? I know in 7th a single character couldn't distribute attacks. It was either all rank and file or all on a single character.

NTJ2010
27-07-2011, 07:10
Decker, is that new in 8th? I know in 7th a single character couldn't distribute attacks. It was either all rank and file or all on a single character.

That was around last edition as well. Page 75 of the 7th edition rule book has rules on dividing attacks.
Similar rules are on page 48 of the current rule book.

someone2040
27-07-2011, 07:33
He can allocate the attacks as he sees fit among models in base to base contact. 3 attacks on each of two engineers, and 4 on a third will likely mean 3 dead engineers.
Yeah, throwing in characters also means wounds don't cap out at 10 either. Due to different initiative steps, the Engineers have to step up. So you can kill more than 5 Engineers in 1 round if a faster initiative step kills any of the Warlock Engineers.

Tregar
27-07-2011, 13:36
How is it better than anything? It means there's a ton of useless models you easily get 15 pts from. People take the Sword of Anti-Heroes too, so decently often, you'll be making opponents S10 A10 to carve through and get those points. Engineers don't really add anything to the unit to make it worth it.

That was what I was saying. I was directly replying to Feefait who seemed needlessly upset over this tactic, when I said it's "better", I meant it's better for us who might have to face it, not that it's a stronger in-game combination.

Feefait
29-07-2011, 13:55
Don't get me wrong, in no way do I consider this a viable tactic. Any template or unit affecting spell will destroy the unit. A side or rear charge by just about anything will be it's end as well. You've got really bad combat characters with little to no armor backed by overcosted combat rank and file. Game wise it's easy to counter.

Where I take exception is that it is clearly designed to manipulate the rules and to create an advantage, which I find unappealing to play against. And saying that he did this because that's what he can afford monetarily is ridiculous. :) One of the orc player sin our group field the night goblins with 4 bosses and GW regularly, and that drives me nuts enough but I understand it. This I just don't get other than 'cheating' while not cheating. :)