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Malorian
21-07-2011, 15:16
So right now dragon characters have a few issues:

-Templates hitting both dragon and rider
-You can't hide them as easily
-Steadfast
-Wood elve dragons used to also have the issue that the lord riding them died very easily seeing as they had next to no armor.


So now I'm thinking about the wood elve dragon again.

-You can give your lord a 2+ through silvering steel
-You can give the entire model a 3+ ward (until failed) WE item to protect against cannons
-And the real weakness of wood elves is that they can play the run around game but then you are forced to get into combat to kill characters. The dragon can then get into combat, kill the characters, and actually then steadfast acts as a way to protect it from further shooting


Thoughts?

russellmoo
21-07-2011, 15:21
I think this might prove really devastating if you combine it with a treeman holding the unit up in the front, while the dragon hits the flank- you will chew through a large unit by the end of the game this way-

Ramius4
21-07-2011, 15:21
Except for the ward (which I've used and it's nice), there's nothing a WE dragon has over any other.

And the ward goes away very quickly by the way. You have a toughness 3 elf... 1 out of 3 of those ward saves fail.

Malorian
21-07-2011, 15:22
Except for the ward (which I've used and it's nice), there's nothing a WE dragon has over any other.

The role is a big one.

In most armies you don't want to just get stuck in and fight steadfast for 3 game turns, but in WE it fits in perfectly.

Oberon
21-07-2011, 15:30
So, nothing has changed expect all dragons are worse than before (all get the same benefits from breath&thunderstomp, but green breath isn't as good as others), and the only real thing that green dragons have that others don't, is the 3+ ward that might break?

Not impressed.

Other armies get better dragons (stats, breath weapons, special rules: S7 stardragons, twinbreaths of chaos, hating black dragons) and better riders (all of them pretty much), and most of them don't have to do the run around game to survive. HE dragons might be the only other ones where the rider provides protection for the dragon (dragon armour, 2+ ward vs fire), so yes that's a good point for green dragons. Can the lord do anything else when he has armour of 2+ and that fancy ward item, btw?

My vote still goes to chaos dragon. Second best statline after stardragon, best rider (either option) and the only really viable wizard rider, and 2 breath weapons (basically green breath and basic S4 breath).

Ramius4
21-07-2011, 15:31
The role is a big one.

In most armies you don't want to just get stuck in and fight steadfast for 3 game turns, but in WE it fits in perfectly.

I'm still not seeing why you think it's somehow better for WE lords to sit fighting a steadfast enemy over any other race...

I mean really... How are they any different than a HE or DE lord on a dragon? With the common items, WE have access to just as much armor, so the differences are extremely superficial. The stats are the same, etc.

You've stated your opinion, but no evidence to support the idea. Convince me.

Sexiest_hero
21-07-2011, 15:40
This is a great Idea. Other dragons may be "better" but the greenie gets a 3+ ward. The longer your dragon is stuck in combat, the longer time you have to shoot down the war machines. With them gone your dragon is golden. Remember fold 3+ ward is HUGE!

Spiney Norman
21-07-2011, 15:41
Are we forgetting the Annoyance of netlings?

You can make the character virtually impregnable in a challenge (6 to hit, 2+/3++ save) and once all the characters are gone from a unit there aren't many units out there that can deal with a T6 dragon, even over several turns.

Ok so maybe you don't want to pile into the front of chosen or swordsmasters, but a correctly tooled up forest dragon can take most basic units.

Malorian
21-07-2011, 15:44
I'm still not seeing why you think it's somehow better for WE lords to sit fighting a steadfast enemy over any other race...

I mean really... How are they any different than a HE or DE lord on a dragon? With the common items, WE have access to just as much armor, so the differences are extremely superficial. The stats are the same, etc.

You've stated your opinion, but no evidence to support the idea. Convince me.

For most armies all those points in a dragon must be used to support the rest of the force. If you take a HE dragon then you will be very much lacking in troops and so you will have to be using it very carefully and aggressively in order to compete with your opponent and avoid being bogged down while your opponent picks away at the rest of your army.

Wood elves opperate differently: They work best when avoiding combat. They don't need support since their sole goal is to run around and pick away at weak units for the eventual win.

Typically the downfall of this is the wizard blasting you with fire balls, but if the dragon takes care of it then you don't care how long the dragon is stuck in combat because the rest of the army is going to be free to run around with ease. In fact the longer the dragon is in combat the more time the rest of the army has to pick off the war machines that threaten it.

So it really comes down to how the army functions. An army of swordmasters and spearmen vs an army of glade riders and skirmishing archers.

russellmoo
21-07-2011, 15:49
The reason High elf players tend not to take a tooled up lord on star dragon has more to do with lacking points in their lord allowance more than anything else-

Let's face it- if you play high elves and you have to choose between an elf mage or elf lord- you're going with the mage-

My guess is in SoM games the star dragon is going to be taken a lot more- that or proxied as an emperor dragon-

Oberon
21-07-2011, 16:04
It seems like we are comparing dragons meant to do different things here? You speak of a dragon as a part of an army that is built to work with the dragon, I (and some others) speak of a dragon+rider on their own merits alone. Indeed, which is a better dragon? A more destructive dragon with a killy/casty lord, or a dragon with the sole purpose of getting in there and not dying/breaking right away as long as it suits the purpose?

Against each other the former is a clear winner, but in the bigger picture it isn't as clear. However, you could also argue that the WoC/HE/DE army could be built around the dragon, and therefore the worm would support the rest of the army like the green dragon can. Save for the 3++ of course, but even that can be broken.

Ramius4
21-07-2011, 16:12
The cost of a 'normal' dragon+WE lord is no different than for other elves.

All I'm saying is that from experience both facing and using a WE dragon with the 3+ ward, it's usually gone by turn 2. You can't depend on it. Then you're usually stuck with an elf who is typically even more vulnerable than his HE/DE counterparts.

Annoyance of Netlings is fine and all, but that also doesn't usually benefit a dragon lord past the first round of combat as he either kills the model he's fighting, or if he fails in that, loses to static combat res. As soon as your lord starts facing 8+ attacks back from the rank and file troops in base to base contact with him, the 3+ ward evaporates if it didn't already.

Malorian
21-07-2011, 16:22
Oberon, the DE dragon would work the same in an army of dark riders, and the pendant would protect the rider, but they have nothing to protect the dragon.


Ramius4, the ward might be gone by turn 2 but by then you are in combat and in fact combat is protecting you from warmachines while your armor is protecting you from the combat.

Best yet, in the new edition you have to kill both rider and dragon to get any points at all so even if they hack down the rider they still don't get squat :)

TsukeFox
21-07-2011, 16:25
Ya I have seen 3+ up wards fail on the regular-(scrying stone I am looking at you !!) and enough hits will make that sweet item crack. And the breath weapon is a joke. The ol treeman is a better buy.

Personally I am more impressed with the great Stag+tooled up wild rider+mounted lore of beast Mage to keep up and make the wild rider into a beassst.

Ramius4
21-07-2011, 16:28
Ramius4, the ward might be gone by turn 2 but by then you are in combat and in fact combat is protecting you from warmachines while your armor is protecting you from the combat.

Well go ahead and use it and lemme know how that works for you. I have several times, and it's much better sounding on paper than it is in practice.

In fact, 8th edition made it worse since you can't reduce the attacks back by killing the enemy...

Anyways, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm down on using the item. I'm not, as evidenced by the fact that I have used it on occassion. It's just no better, nor worse than any other dragon-lord I've encountered.

Oberon
21-07-2011, 16:28
If you're in combat by turn 2, do you actually *need* that breakable 3++ ward save? Especially when the dragon and the rider are superior without it.

RanaldLoec
21-07-2011, 16:39
Well for the Woodelve army the lord on a dragon does something only treemen or treekin can reliable kill high armour save targets.

It suffers from the same weakness any dragon with an elve on it. The rider is squishy and the dragon is a artillery magnet.

The key fact here is what are we using him for he needs to be in combat turn 3 at the latest as its four to five hundred points invested in the unit.

Lucky at my club we have a wealth of terrain and forests which actually can block line of sight.

This coupled with my dragons mission hitting a high points cost unit in the flank engaged in the front by Dryads, treekin or wildriders.

With this in mind I build my Woodelf lord thus:

Highborn, light armour, sheild, helm of the hunt, spear of the twilight, potion of strength or toughness or foolhardiness, stone of the crystalmere, dragon.

3+ ward to get to combat, 3+ armour save, on the charge 5 or 6 ws8 st5 or st8 killing blow attacks depending on the potion, 5 ws6 st6 attacks, 2d6 st2 breathweapon hits, d6 st6 thunderstomp attacks.

Yes the lord can die but this build is designed to get to combat by turn 2 and kill allot. It may take a few cannon balls and fail but that's no different to any ridden monster.

If your worried about survival in combat you can take the potion of toughness.

Some times the most competitive choice is not always the most fun.
Yes my lord and dragon have died before but oh is it fun when it works.

theunwantedbeing
21-07-2011, 17:03
, hating black dragons

Erm no, they don't get this because the mount never get's hatred off the rider.
:cries: (stupid Errata ruined my Dark Elves :mad::shifty:)

The advantage of the Forest dragon is simply that it's the only one who can have a proper save against artillery like cannons and the like, because Wood Elves have access to that 3+ ward for dirt cheap.

If you face lots of cannons then it's easily the best one simply as it's not so damned easily swatted off the table on turns 1-2.

As for actual setup of the thing, you took the dragon for the dragon, not the rider who is simply a bonus.
If you want to be hard to hit in combat then you'll have to forego the ward save and take the Dawnspear along with the Fimbulwinter Shard. -1 to hit to begin with, plus a further -1 if the rider deals any wounds means 6's to hit the model for the most part. It's like an all over, all combat Annoyance of Netlings :)

You can then give the rider a better save if you want.
Light armour & the Enchanted Shield is a 3+ armour save when sat on the Dragon, which isn't exactly bad at all.

Malorian
21-07-2011, 17:15
If you're in combat by turn 2, do you actually *need* that breakable 3++ ward save? Especially when the dragon and the rider are superior without it.

The 3+ ward is to make sure both rider and dragon make it to combat.

Even if a charm shield or Tz 3+ ward saves the character, if the dragon get wacked for a good amount of damage BEFORE combat then there is a much greater chance that it will be killed and the lord will just be ran down.

w3rm
21-07-2011, 21:31
If 3+ wards don't protect you at all then why do you still see plenty of woc disc riders? They have a lower toughness and less than half the wounds of a dragon + rider yet they still see plenty of tabletop action.

willowdark
21-07-2011, 21:36
They aren't the point sink that a Highborn+Dragon are.

Spiney Norman
21-07-2011, 21:37
The major downer on a Wood elf dragon for me is that currently I can't really conceive of a wood elf army working without a Spell weaver. Asrai need their lord level mages, not only to access the higher levels and gain the higher casting/dispelling bonuses but also to get access to lores that are actually worth casting from.

The lore of Loren is so utterly crappy by current standards that I just can't see an army working without access to either life or beasts (which are both excellent depending on your list construction).

IMHO a lord level mage for Wood elves is even more important than it is for high elves.

w3rm
21-07-2011, 21:44
They aren't the point sink that a Highborn+Dragon are.

At around 200 points theyre not chump change either. With the apparent ease a 3++ doesn't protect you why aren't they dying on turn 2 like all dragons apparently do?

innerwolf
21-07-2011, 22:29
Easy, that 3+ ward doesn't break on the first fail.

Malorian
21-07-2011, 22:35
Easy, that 3+ ward doesn't break on the first fail.

When a Tz character fails their 3+ ward from a cannon ball it typically only happens once as well ;)

Rochr
21-07-2011, 23:20
Against a cannon-heavy army most Tz should probably use the Crimson Armour too. Then it will take atleast three cannon balls to kill it anyway :) - Guess Im offtopic now.

stinkyslave
21-07-2011, 23:32
it seems to me that all dragons fail. but i play against a lot of shooty armies. dwarves woodelves and the like.

Trains_Get_Robbed
22-07-2011, 07:49
The major downer on a Wood elf dragon for me is that currently I can't really conceive of a wood elf army working without a Spell weaver. Asrai need their lord level mages, not only to access the higher levels and gain the higher casting/dispelling bonuses but also to get access to lores that are actually worth casting from.

The lore of Loren is so utterly crappy by current standards that I just can't see an army working without access to either life or beasts (which are both excellent depending on your list construction).

IMHO a lord level mage for Wood elves is even more important than it is for high elves.

Wholeheartedly disagree.

H.E are one of two armies in hammmmer that need a Lord level caster each game to compete. With H.E you build your army around your caster unlike with W.E armies. W.E can greatly benefit from a caster, however it isn't necessary to have a level 4. Yes, the lore of Athel Loren is terribad but, it does have a few spells of use, and if your smart with your deployment and movement phase, enemy magic and shooting shouldn't be taking more than half a unit a turn.

H.E on the other hand NEED magic to be on a level four. If you were to show up with an overpriced lizard being ridden by the greatest ponse in the land, your army of T3 A.S +5 COMBAT elves are looking death in the face, with what minimal save they have being taken away from what they fight.

The reason why having a few branchwraiths or a few lvl twos works exponetianally better for W.E, is because their army concept is mainly based on avoidence and combined arms until your heavy hitters hit combat ie; Treekin, Treeman. And whats not better than helping out your treeman by having a dragon in the combat as well?


Forest Dragons > than Star Dragons/Moon etc. . . due to army synergy and Lord Level Caster necessity.

If we're talking about SoM: Forest Dragon vs. Dragon Mage, then maybe we would have a better discussion and more clear cut winner (Dragon Mage) as opposed to a murky conclusion that all Dragons suck in 8th.

Jericho
22-07-2011, 16:40
The major downer on a Wood elf dragon for me is that currently I can't really conceive of a wood elf army working without a Spell weaver. Asrai need their lord level mages, not only to access the higher levels and gain the higher casting/dispelling bonuses but also to get access to lores that are actually worth casting from.

The lore of Loren is so utterly crappy by current standards that I just can't see an army working without access to either life or beasts (which are both excellent depending on your list construction).

IMHO a lord level mage for Wood elves is even more important than it is for high elves.
I have a hard time imagining Wood Elves without a L4 myself, but I know a player in Calgary who basically runs his MSU 7th edition list (including a pair of L1's) and he has been winning Best General/Best Overall at a number of events lately, including ones with fairly competitive environments.

Taking a L4 seems to work out best when you take a deathstar unit of Eternals as the core of your army. Way less useful if you revert to the more traditional WE tactics of MSU and harassing units.

Beasts and Life are great lores, but without any access to Loremaster or choosing spells, they are a gamble on a L4. If you get crap spells then good luck getting your money's worth out of that mage.

Malorian
22-07-2011, 16:50
I have a hard time imagining Wood Elves without a L4 myself, but I know a player in Calgary who basically runs his MSU 7th edition list (including a pair of L1's) and he has been winning Best General/Best Overall at a number of events lately, including ones with fairly competitive environments.

Taking a L4 seems to work out best when you take a deathstar unit of Eternals as the core of your army. Way less useful if you revert to the more traditional WE tactics of MSU and harassing units.

Beasts and Life are great lores, but without any access to Loremaster or choosing spells, they are a gamble on a L4. If you get crap spells then good luck getting your money's worth out of that mage.

Even in an MSU style list I would always take a lvl4 when possible. It's not so much for what they can cast but rather the need to stop magic and protect your small weak units. A lvl 4 with the wand to reroll dispell dice does a great job at that :evilgrin:


That said points would be tight with a dragon lord also in the mix...

Spiney Norman
22-07-2011, 17:18
Wholeheartedly disagree.

H.E are one of two armies in hammmmer that need a Lord level caster each game to compete. With H.E you build your army around your caster unlike with W.E armies. W.E can greatly benefit from a caster, however it isn't necessary to have a level 4. Yes, the lore of Athel Loren is terribad but, it does have a few spells of use, and if your smart with your deployment and movement phase, enemy magic and shooting shouldn't be taking more than half a unit a turn.

H.E on the other hand NEED magic to be on a level four. If you were to show up with an overpriced lizard being ridden by the greatest ponse in the land, your army of T3 A.S +5 COMBAT elves are looking death in the face, with what minimal save they have being taken away from what they fight.

The reason why having a few branchwraiths or a few lvl twos works exponetianally better for W.E, is because their army concept is mainly based on avoidence and combined arms until your heavy hitters hit combat ie; Treekin, Treeman. And whats not better than helping out your treeman by having a dragon in the combat as well?


Forest Dragons > than Star Dragons/Moon etc. . . due to army synergy and Lord Level Caster necessity.

If we're talking about SoM: Forest Dragon vs. Dragon Mage, then maybe we would have a better discussion and more clear cut winner (Dragon Mage) as opposed to a murky conclusion that all Dragons suck in 8th.

No offense, but MSU wood elves can't tree-sing their way to victory now. There is one spell in the lore of Loren that is worth using power dice to cast, and that is call of the hunt, the rest are utterly poor, and even call doesn't compare to the top spell in any of the BRB lores. The risk of taking only L2s/wraiths is that you might not end up with call and have no presence in the magic phase at all. With Life at least, there is only 1 bad spell (shield of thorns), which can be swapped out with the signature if you roll it, the only spell I wouldn't want with beasts would be Kadon because I'd almost never want to cast it, but again the sig spell is great for WE so no drama there.

Life has the best synergy with the WE list IMHO, esp since Treekin became auto-include choices, having said that beasts is a great lore as well, I've been experimenting with double weavers in larger games and so far it is working well.

RanaldLoec
22-07-2011, 22:47
No offense, but MSU wood elves can't tree-sing their way to victory now. There is one spell in the lore of Loren that is worth using power dice to cast, and that is call of the hunt, the rest are utterly poor, and even call doesn't compare to the top spell in any of the BRB lores. The risk of taking only L2s/wraiths is that you might not end up with call and have no presence in the magic phase at all. With Life at least, there is only 1 bad spell (shield of thorns), which can be swapped out with the signature if you roll it, the only spell I wouldn't want with beasts would be Kadon because I'd almost never want to cast it, but again the sig spell is great for WE so no drama there.

Life has the best synergy with the WE list IMHO, esp since Treekin became auto-include choices, having said that beasts is a great lore as well, I've been experimenting with double weavers in larger games and so far it is working well.

In SoM both life and beast lores suck compared to the tree singing, madrigal greening and living dead wood staff spam combination.

sulla
23-07-2011, 01:45
You can make the character virtually impregnable in a challenge (6 to hit, 2+/3++ save) and once all the characters are gone from a unit there aren't many units out there that can deal with a T6 dragon, even over several turns.
.
Really? Elves have mindrazor, chaos and dwarves have all s5 armies. Even wildform on gors will bring him down eventually.

The problem with ridden monsters is that many races can deal with even a dragon in 2 or 3 phases. Best case scenario vs many armies is that your dragon takes on their chaff and takes them out of the game. You certainly couldn't have him vs great weapon troops singlehandedly. So it's a 500pt unit that needs support, or is relegated to the support role itself.

TsukeFox
23-07-2011, 04:33
You know what-
the H.E. Dragon Mage Is the bestest. Dual wield them no less ! Bwhahaha

Spiney Norman
23-07-2011, 07:29
In SoM both life and beast lores suck compared to the tree singing, madrigal greening and living dead wood staff spam combination.

Perhaps, my comments were aimed specifically at regular 8th Ed core rules, but a life/beast weaver still gets the madrigal greening spell (all WE mages do regardless of their lore) and in SoM you're always going to have plenty of treesinging going on, treemen are a must and you're probably going to want at least 2 low level wizards to accompany your L4.

You're not seriously suggesting that anyone should play SoM without a Level 4???


Really? Elves have mindrazor, chaos and dwarves have all s5 armies. Even wildform on gors will bring him down eventually.

The problem with ridden monsters is that many races can deal with even a dragon in 2 or 3 phases. Best case scenario vs many armies is that your dragon takes on their chaff and takes them out of the game. You certainly couldn't have him vs great weapon troops singlehandedly. So it's a 500pt unit that needs support, or is relegated to the support role itself.

There are spells that can deal with just about anything, Mindrazor isn't just a problem for dragons its a problem for every unit in the game, and wood elves have always had a major problem fighting high elves. I fully accept that a Forest dragon isn't the auto-win button everyone seems to want, but its a valuable tool if you pick your target right

RanaldLoec
23-07-2011, 07:37
Perhaps, my comments were aimed specifically at regular 8th Ed core rules, but a life/beast weaver still gets the madrigal greening spell (all WE mages do regardless of their lore) and in SoM you're always going to have plenty of treesinging going on, treemen are a must and you're probably going to want at least 2 low level wizards to accompany your L4.

You're not seriously suggesting that anyone should play SoM without a Level 4???

Bound level casting of treesinging isn't as effective as it receives no bonus to the dice.

I was referring to the lores only I made no mention of levels and I never suggested not taking a level 4.

On a foot note I think zoats and truthsayers have peaked my interest.

Spiney Norman
23-07-2011, 07:48
Bound level casting of treesinging isn't as effective as it receives no bonus to the dice.

I was referring to the lores only I made no mention of levels and I never suggested not taking a level 4.

On a foot note I think zoats and truthsayers have peaked my interest.

Zoats are worth investigating, truthsayers (and dark emissaries come to that) are wildly over-priced. Most armies can buy a level 4 from their main list for the price of a L2 truthsayer and they have the added disadvantage of not being able to join units.

Hashulaman
23-07-2011, 15:31
I play WoC so I don't know much about Wood Elves. Is it possible to buff the Rider with items or augments like Flesh to Stone? Make him a bit more survivable?

sulla
23-07-2011, 22:05
There are spells that can deal with just about anything, Mindrazor isn't just a problem for dragons its a problem for every unit in the game, and wood elves have always had a major problem fighting high elves. I fully accept that a Forest dragon isn't the auto-win button everyone seems to want, but its a valuable tool if you pick your target rightI suppose that's my problem with them. At over 500pts, but still having to pick the right target makes for a pretty 'hit or miss' army choice IMO.

If you look at DE, who can also make a good dragon lord, good medium monsters riders on manticores or good monstrous cav rider on pegasus, the only one that really works in an all comers army is the pegasus rider; More than good enough vs war machines, skirmishers or small units but cheap enough to be expendable and can't get thye mount shot/hacked out from under them.

snottlebocket
24-07-2011, 14:08
Zoats are worth investigating, truthsayers (and dark emissaries come to that) are wildly over-priced. Most armies can buy a level 4 from their main list for the price of a L2 truthsayer and they have the added disadvantage of not being able to join units.

The SoM mages like zoats, truthsayers, emissaries and lammasu aren't expensive because they're mages. They're expensive because they give you access to lores. My orcs and goblins are consistently plagued by my opponents abomination. The ability to throw 6d6 fireballs at the cursed creature with a Fimir is well worth the cost.

A lot of them will probably end up standing on fulcrums for that 3+ ward anyway. The SoM mages all have a leadership of 8 which makes them a lot more resistant to magic duels than say my own goblin shamans or my opponents warlock engineers.

decker_cky
25-07-2011, 21:26
SoM mages also pay for things like regenerate (40ish pts?), +1 to cast (25-30 pts?), +2 to channel (15 pts) and slightly better stats than wizards that would be that expensive. Truthsayer I consider a worse deal because +1 to dispel isn't particularly good when you havea L4 elsewhere, but they actually add up to a lot more value and have great lore selection. There isn't a lot of L3 mages that could have 5+ ward, MR3, +1 to dispel and +2 to channel dispels for under 250 pts.

The SoM mages really aren't overpriced when you put them together, they just have a lot of forced upgrades that sometimes aren't worth it. Then again, truthsayers with default transformation (even with life) is nice in SoM, and having a 2+ ward against wizard duels is a neat little perk.

Spiney Norman
26-07-2011, 09:13
SoM mages also pay for things like regenerate (40ish pts?), +1 to cast (25-30 pts?), +2 to channel (15 pts) and slightly better stats than wizards that would be that expensive. Truthsayer I consider a worse deal because +1 to dispel isn't particularly good when you havea L4 elsewhere, but they actually add up to a lot more value and have great lore selection. There isn't a lot of L3 mages that could have 5+ ward, MR3, +1 to dispel and +2 to channel dispels for under 250 pts.

The SoM mages really aren't overpriced when you put them together, they just have a lot of forced upgrades that sometimes aren't worth it. Then again, truthsayers with default transformation (even with life) is nice in SoM, and having a 2+ ward against wizard duels is a neat little perk.

I'm looking at the possibility of a truthsayer/Dark Emissary to add to my O&G list to expand the lores available to me, but its somewhat galling that they cost the same as the Carnosaur I'm currently using.

Vsurma
26-07-2011, 10:08
Zoats are worth investigating, truthsayers (and dark emissaries come to that) are wildly over-priced. Most armies can buy a level 4 from their main list for the price of a L2 truthsayer and they have the added disadvantage of not being able to join units.

Some armies like the lizardmen I play are willing to pay extra to get access to new lores.

If your playing HE/empire/vamps/deamons then of course you would take your own mages with lore masters etc but for those that don't have access to other lores. If you want to play STOM you will want to consider the mages out there.

Spiney Norman
26-07-2011, 19:28
Some armies like the lizardmen I play are willing to pay extra to get access to new lores.

If your playing HE/empire/vamps/deamons then of course you would take your own mages with lore masters etc but for those that don't have access to other lores. If you want to play STOM you will want to consider the mages out there.

You know of course that Lizardmen have access to all the 8 battle magic lores right?

I'm considering a truthsayer for my O&G now, especially because he can have access to 2 magic lores simultaneously (beasts and life) which would give me access to both sets of cataclysm spells. Its a shame the Dark Emissary can't do the same trick.

w3rm
26-07-2011, 20:20
Guys this is about a dragon not about SoM mages...

snottlebocket
26-07-2011, 20:33
Guys this is about a dragon not about SoM mages...

Yes, quit having fun or saying interesting things and get back to the dragon.

w3rm
26-07-2011, 23:19
Yes, quit having fun or saying interesting things and get back to the dragon.

Well there are plenty of other threads out there about the viability of mages in SoM.

sulla
27-07-2011, 07:42
Yes, quit having fun or saying interesting things and get back to the dragon.It was a fair point. No need to bust out the sarcasm IMO...

Spiney Norman
28-07-2011, 08:39
Ok, back to the dragon.
Statement for discussion:
The VC Zombie dragon is the most viable dragon option in the current game, ergo the wood elf dragon is not.

shay
28-07-2011, 19:25
Im painting a wood elf dragon as of now. I think it should work pretty well against most armies. The 3+ ward save has already been mentioned, but I think that the Lore of Athel Loren has some good spells that could work in synergy with the dragon. "The Hidden Path" could protect it from cannons and with "Call of the Hunt" your dragon can be in close combat first turn, thus being protected from missile fire.

Trains_Get_Robbed
28-07-2011, 19:44
The V.C Dragon is not the most viable in the game because it crumbles. S.C.R the thing to death for a turn, the best Dragon in the current metagame is the Chaos Dragon which I would say has a sligt edge over the W.E Dragon due to its 2 breath templates one being T tests, which can decimate a unit.

w3rm
28-07-2011, 20:54
The V.C Dragon is not the most viable in the game because it crumbles. S.C.R the thing to death for a turn, the best Dragon in the current metagame is the Chaos Dragon which I would say has a sligt edge over the W.E Dragon due to its 2 breath templates one being T tests, which can decimate a unit.

Unfortunatley it is rarely seen in games below 3000 points. How many points is that sucker + the lord or sorc combined?

Malorian
28-07-2011, 22:05
Ok, back to the dragon.
Statement for discussion:
The VC Zombie dragon is the most viable dragon option in the current game, ergo the wood elf dragon is not.

Vampire characters need to be protected, putting a lord out on a dragon is NOT protecting him...

In 7th I might agree with you, but not in 8th.

sulla
29-07-2011, 01:10
Vampire characters need to be protected, putting a lord out on a dragon is NOT protecting him...

In 7th I might agree with you, but not in 8th.Yeah, you wouldn't do it for your general... so that means it would only be for your second lord choice. So that meanss pretty big games before a VC dragon becomes viable really.

Malorian
29-07-2011, 01:13
Not only for big games only (we're talking around 5K+) but again you are throwing away a vamprie lord.

Sure it might not be your general, but ALL vampires are critical in a vampire list and you can't just simply throw them away just to joy ride on a zombie dragon.

Probably only way I would do it is with the carstien ring so you could at least rejoin a unit when you die.

Anggul
30-07-2011, 20:35
I'm probably remembering this completely incorrectly, but I seem to remember something about being able to take a Wood Elf Dragon without a guy riding it, just flying around doing it's own thing. If true, this would help with the 3+ ward save thing.

w3rm
30-07-2011, 23:42
Not that I am aware of, unless we're talking SoM.