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Gratan
21-07-2011, 17:21
Hello,

I am thinking about starting a Skaven army. I've got a ton of Clanrats from IoB so this will be forming the main blocks of my Core. The rest I'll be adding a little at a time. I am aiming for 3,000 points as this is the point value I enjoy playing most.

This is a basic list, I have not finalized the magic items or gear on the Lord or Heroes. Everything else is pretty much what I want. Right now I have 715 points left to spend on gear and magic items and any other units with any points left over.

What do you think? What would you recommend?

Lords

Greyseer 440
-Screaming Bell

440 (excluding Magic Items/Gear)

Heroes

Chieftain 45

4 Warlock Engineers 60

BSB 70

175 (excluding Magic Items/Gear)

Core

Stormvermin x28 249
-Full Command
-Shields

CLanrats x29 165
-Full Command
-Spear
-Shield

CLanrats x29 165
-Full Command
-Spear
-Shield

Clanrats x29 150.5
-Full Command
-Hand Weapon
-Shield

Clanrats x29 150.5
-Full Command
-Hand Weapon
-Shield

4 Doomflayers 220

1,100 points (37%)


Rares

Doomwheel 150
Doomwheel 150

Warp Lightning Cannon 90
Warp Lightning Cannon 90
Warp Lightning Cannon 90

570 points (19%)

Total: 2,285 points

TsukeFox
21-07-2011, 17:57
Where are your slaves ??
Dump two of the warlocks for a doomRocket

Jolly Puggles
21-07-2011, 18:38
1) Warlocks, Wizards and Witches...oh my! 4 non-wizard Warlocks is a complete waste of time. More than 2 Warlocks with Wizard Levels could also be described as being "Redundant Auxilliaries". Scrap a couple of Warlocks and get a Warlord...the Warlord is a (relatively) cheap and effective boost to a unit.

2)Units of 30 aren't happy units. They're not quite sure whether to pretend to be a big unit or a small one. Commit to one or the other and go with 40+ per unit or go for minimum unit size. I'd advise 40 'Vermin, 2x 40 Clanrats and at least 2x 20 Slaves as a minimum. Expand from there at will! Personally, in my 3000pts, I have 2x50 Vermin, 2x50 Clanrats and 2x40 Slaves as a base upon which to build the rest of the army (which may include more Core Troops!) but I like a nice troop heavy army.

2a)Don't bother giving Stormvermin Shields. If you're that concerned about them surviving incoming firepower, give them the Banner of Swiftness to haul-A across the battlefield quicker. Otherwise, just buy more Stormvermin (for the price of equipping 40 Stormvermin with shields, you can get an extra 5 Stormvermin...if you're taking more casualties than that from shooting, then you're not advancing fast enough, your Slaves are in the wrong place and the unit's probably doomed anyway!).

3)Ye gods, not Doomflayers! Anything but Doomflayers. If you want cheap Weapon Teams, get Ratling Guns. I've tried using Doomflayers (using proxy models) and the one time I actually managed to get one into combat it was not...how should I put this...particularly impressive (if I recall, the actual comments I made about them at the time would make a sailor blush). I always take Warpfire Throwers; they're trickier to use that Poisoned Wind Mortars due to Move or Fire, but there's nothing quite like seeing entire units engulfed in chaos-infused napalm.

4)Clan Skyre's Engines of War. 2 Doomwheels and 3 WLC's will be devastating and effective...but (and this is just my opinion) is also a little dull. More importantly, it is extremely unreliable. Doomwheels either rampage around a lot or end up doing nothing. Warp-Lightning Cannons either wipe out whole units in one shot or barely register as a hair dryer. The kicker is the Arty-Dice Strength and random move (for the Doomwheel). There is nothing worse (barring blowing yourself up, of course) than lining up the perfect hit, only to find that every hit is S:2.
I'd advise switching out one or more of each of those two assets for some Jezzails; they're reliable, they rarely backfire and they're really really scary for knights and other heavily armoured chappies, so much so, that you will find that opponents will target those Jezzails with everything they have...which means they're not targeting the Doomwheel while it makes it's haphazard way towards enemy lines or the Grey Seer on his Bell. If he ignores them, any small elite units will swiftly find themselves seriously depleted by Jezzer fire. 1 Doomwheel + 1 WLC = 12 Jezzails (or 11 Jezzails including 2 Sharpshooters if you field them in 2 units) and that's a lot of reliable S:6 AP firepower. Did I mention that they rarely backfire?
If you're feeling really saucy and think you can make them work, Poisoned Wind Globadiers can seriously devastate enemy armour. Even a small unit will be underestimated, but if you can get them into position and keep them out of harms way, they can win you the game. I should warn you that they are tricky to use, though.
It all depends on who you're going to be facing really. Jezzails and Globadiers are really only worth taking if your opponent has anything heavily armoured (i.e. with an armour save of 4+ or better) with high points cost. I go up against Brettonians and Empire fierly regularly, so I get a lot of milage out of them, but if I were facing Wood Elves and Goblins then I probably wouldn't bother.

warplock
21-07-2011, 18:59
I would strongly advise against taking Poisoned Wind Globadiers. They are widely condemned and are not only are they horrendously expensive to buy -wise, they also severely under-perform on the battlefield, in my experience and in most other people's I've read about. They have thrown weapons (8" range :cries:) and BS 3, so in nearly all cases you'll be hitting on 6's, 5+ if you're lucky. Then half of those hits wound. So a unit of ten will average 1-2 wounds per turn of shooting. Nice if you have some knights grinding through your Slaves and you can keep dropping a couple each turn, but useless in nearly every other scenario.

Jolly Puggles
21-07-2011, 23:08
I would strongly advise against taking Poisoned Wind Globadiers. They are widely condemned and are not only are they horrendously expensive to buy -wise, they also severely under-perform on the battlefield, in my experience and in most other people's I've read about. They have thrown weapons (8" range :cries:) and BS 3, so in nearly all cases you'll be hitting on 6's, 5+ if you're lucky. Then half of those hits wound. So a unit of ten will average 1-2 wounds per turn of shooting. Nice if you have some knights grinding through your Slaves and you can keep dropping a couple each turn, but useless in nearly every other scenario.

They are horribly pricey to buy, due to metal miniatures, true. For some reason, they've not been errata'd to have Quick to Fire like every other thrown weapon in the game which, as you say, means that most of the time you'll need a 6 to hit. This means that they are both situational and hard to use. When you get the hang of them though (which, I'll admit, takes a while to get it down pat), they can win a game for you. They always wound on a 4+ and don't allow an armour save. They're also (along with pretty much every other Skaven weapon) Warpstone Weapons, which means they'll affect Ethereals and other things that can only be wounded by magical attacks. This makes them excellent for hurting things that you can otherwise struggle with. I'll admit, though, that they've been made largely redundant by the Poisoned Wind Mortar which is both cheaper and has greater potential (at the cost of reliability)...a shame, because Globadiers were one of the Skavens' first unique units and can be very effective.

The reason they're often dismissed is because they're not a "no brainer" like the HPA (just point it it the right direction and watch the carnage) or Jezzails (which, once deployed, have coverage of about 3/4 of the battlefield and never have to move). You actually have to engage your brain to use PWGs effectively and most people don't want to do that. If you're willing to take the challenge, though, they can work out to be just as effective unit as the other stuff and at a good deal cheaper; for the price of 1 (upgraded) HPA, you can get 25 Globadiers OR 14 Globies + Bombadier with Death Globe + Plague Wind Mortar and either way that's a hellavalotta poison gas. I'd take the Globies over the Abom any day of the week. I'll admit that the numbers probably don't back me up on this one, but I guarantee I can do more with those Globadiers than I'd ever do with the Abom, Warp-Lightning Cannon or even Jezzails (which are my pet-favourites!).

Gratan
21-07-2011, 23:44
Thanks for the advice all


Where are your slaves ??
Dump two of the warlocks for a doomRocket

I'm a bit ocd about somethings... I wont use metal minis so standard slaves are out, While IoB has models in it without armor on them and could make excellent slaves... There are only 12 out of 40 models that could be used this way... That would be way above my price range... With all the IoB skaven I have, I can field one unit of 20 slaves... but then the other units as a whole would be severely small...

Remember, the initial list was still 715pts short so a Doomrocket would be figured into those points, I hadnt forgotten the Rocket o'Doom!


1) Warlocks, Wizards and Witches...oh my! 4 non-wizard Warlocks is a complete waste of time. More than 2 Warlocks with Wizard Levels could also be described as being "Redundant Auxilliaries". Scrap a couple of Warlocks and get a Warlord...the Warlord is a (relatively) cheap and effective boost to a unit.

With the points I had left over (715) I was going to upgrade at least 2 of the warlocks for magic. I just hadnt spent the points yet.

Have a Grey Seer on a bell, I didnt know if I'd have the points for a Warlord after I got all the gear and magic items on the Seer. I'll look and see what I can get. I do have two Chieftans, one as General and one as BSB.


2)Units of 30 aren't happy units. They're not quite sure whether to pretend to be a big unit or a small one. Commit to one or the other and go with 40+ per unit or go for minimum unit size. I'd advise 40 'Vermin, 2x 40 Clanrats and at least 2x 20 Slaves as a minimum. Expand from there at will! Personally, in my 3000pts, I have 2x50 Vermin, 2x50 Clanrats and 2x40 Slaves as a base upon which to build the rest of the army (which may include more Core Troops!) but I like a nice troop heavy army.

I can definitely see the wisdom in this. I'll bump everything up to x40 units then. Again, see my OCD issues and Slaves above... Is it so wrong that I not use slaves?


2a)Don't bother giving Stormvermin Shields. If you're that concerned about them surviving incoming firepower, give them the Banner of Swiftness to haul-A across the battlefield quicker. Otherwise, just buy more Stormvermin (for the price of equipping 40 Stormvermin with shields, you can get an extra 5 Stormvermin...if you're taking more casualties than that from shooting, then you're not advancing fast enough, your Slaves are in the wrong place and the unit's probably doomed anyway!).

Its more about the look... I think they look pretty silly without their shields... I'll take the effectiveness/ppoints loss as long as they look good...


3)Ye gods, not Doomflayers! Anything but Doomflayers. If you want cheap Weapon Teams, get Ratling Guns. I've tried using Doomflayers (using proxy models) and the one time I actually managed to get one into combat it was not...how should I put this...particularly impressive (if I recall, the actual comments I made about them at the time would make a sailor blush). I always take Warpfire Throwers; they're trickier to use that Poisoned Wind Mortars due to Move or Fire, but there's nothing quite like seeing entire units engulfed in chaos-infused napalm.

Ok, no to Doomflayers then... Am I hurting myself if I dont take weapon teams? I hadnt realized they were metel/resin so they are out on that regard... Since I am going all plastic, that means I only have two choices, Mortar or Warpfire Thrower. Which is better/more effective? I know the Warpfire Thrower is a bit more situational (move or fire, template), but dont know which one to go with... I have two of each already... maybe I'll play with them both and see which works best for me


4)Clan Skyre's Engines of War. 2 Doomwheels and 3 WLC's will be devastating and effective...but (and this is just my opinion) is also a little dull. More importantly, it is extremely unreliable. Doomwheels either rampage around a lot or end up doing nothing. Warp-Lightning Cannons either wipe out whole units in one shot or barely register as a hair dryer. The kicker is the Arty-Dice Strength and random move (for the Doomwheel). There is nothing worse (barring blowing yourself up, of course) than lining up the perfect hit, only to find that every hit is S:2.
I'd advise switching out one or more of each of those two assets for some Jezzails; they're reliable, they rarely backfire and they're really really scary for knights and other heavily armoured chappies, so much so, that you will find that opponents will target those Jezzails with everything they have...which means they're not targeting the Doomwheel while it makes it's haphazard way towards enemy lines or the Grey Seer on his Bell. If he ignores them, any small elite units will swiftly find themselves seriously depleted by Jezzer fire. 1 Doomwheel + 1 WLC = 12 Jezzails (or 11 Jezzails including 2 Sharpshooters if you field them in 2 units) and that's a lot of reliable S:6 AP firepower. Did I mention that they rarely backfire?
If you're feeling really saucy and think you can make them work, Poisoned Wind Globadiers can seriously devastate enemy armour. Even a small unit will be underestimated, but if you can get them into position and keep them out of harms way, they can win you the game. I should warn you that they are tricky to use, though.
It all depends on who you're going to be facing really. Jezzails and Globadiers are really only worth taking if your opponent has anything heavily armoured (i.e. with an armour save of 4+ or better) with high points cost. I go up against Brettonians and Empire fierly regularly, so I get a lot of milage out of them, but if I were facing Wood Elves and Goblins then I probably wouldn't bother.

I'm a dull person anyway, so dull doesnt bother me. I think they fit my play style quite well.

Until they ever make plastic Jezzail teams, they are out of the selection... I wont do metal... I've not done a GW metal since they stopped using lead... I'm not about to start now...


Globadiers <snip>

Again, these guys are metal... I'm trying to stay all plastic (I'd forgotten the Doomflayers were metal/resin).

warplock
21-07-2011, 23:50
How do you feel about simple conversions? I made all my jezzails using the following recipe:
1x cavalry base
2x gutter runners
1x Kroot Rifle (ordered a box of just the rifle arms, from ebay)
1x giant shield (pavise) constructed from several normal Skaven shields glued together

With a bit of snipping, filing and 'artistic licence' you can quite easily make decent jezzail teams - I've made 6 this way and intend to do a lot more, it certainly beats paying 8+ per jezzail!

lovedinplaster
22-07-2011, 01:19
I thought all thrown weapons were quick to fire? Which means..globadiers have an affective range of.. 13"? Still wounding on 4+/4+, and they are the cheapest way to field the Pwm.. Only ever hated that thing once( two cannons, a warpfire thrower, and Pwm all misfired the same turn:-| )

Not to mention the deathglobe is just house. Which means firing that template globe into ANY unit.. And possibly hitting anyone you want.

Right now I field a unit of 5 globes, 6 jezzails, 10 gutter runners, two cannons and a doomwheel. The only armies I face are heavy armored(90% of their units have 4+ or better)

Jolly Puggles
22-07-2011, 01:42
Skavenslaves are really the biggest strength of the Skaven army and what defines them as different from every other army out there. They are a truly and realistically disposable infantry unit. At 2pts/model, you can field masses of them at a pittance of a cost. Consider exactly how cheap that is; for 100pts, you get a Horde unit 10x5. Sure, they have no armour and a measly WS:2, but they're still S/T:3 and if within 12" of the General are testing psychology against Ld:10 with SiN. To cause a Panic test (from full strength), your opponent needs to kill 13 of them; that's more individual models than is even in a typical unit of archers and even if they do manage to kill that many it still hasn't affected your rank bonus. Skavenslaves will die in droves, but in melee they will kill just as many enemies as Clanrats, if not more because fielding them in Horde is so much easier. If they do fail a Panic Test or get destroyed in combat, who cares? They cost you next to nothing and they aren't causeing Panic in your other units. Not only that but if they do break from combat, instead of simply running off the table, they inflict more damage on the enemy...most people pay through the nose for something like that. I've won battles with Skavenslaves alone, without getting my Clanrats or Stormvermin involved at all. It gets better though. If you field a Seer or Warlocks (as, indeed, you are), you're have access to Death Frenzy. Why burn precious points of Clanrats or Stormvermin from the automatic casualties that spell incurs, when you can use it on Slaves (who you expect to die anyway) to boost those 3 attacks per enemy in base contact to 5. Give them Spears for a measly 1/2pt each (woohoohooo, careful now, you're spending 125pts now...) and increase that 5 to a 6. Skavenslaves are a fearsome fighting unit, both offensively and defensively. If you lose them, you're losing nothing. There is no bad aspect of Skavenslaves. It's as simple as that and that is why they're such a vital aspect of any Skaven army.

Weapon Teams will give you a much needed bit of extra 'punch'. Skaven infantry is lacklustre at best. It might be cheap, but apart from high Initiative, that's all we have going for us. Warpfire Throwers can cut swathes of enemy infantry down. It's high Strength means that pretty much any common infantry (from Empire Swordsmen to High Elf Spearmen) will pretty much be insta-killed (or 'burninated' as I like to say) and it'll even worry tougher fare like Chaos Warriors or Saurus. The Poisoned Wind Mortar is a godsend inasmuch as you can move and fire. It also has the added benefit or ignoring armour, so it's brilliant for taking out knights and such. So which you go for really depends on who you'll be facing; infantry heavy or low Toughness armies like O&G, other Skaven, any Elves and Empire, I'd say go for the Warpfire Thrower. Against Heavy Cav and high T armies like Warriors of Chaos, Bretonnia and Dwarves, I'd take the PW-Mortar.


I thought all thrown weapons were quick to fire?

Yeah, they're supposed to (or, at least, should) be, but the Poisoned Wind Globe has yet to be updated from saying "are treated as Thrown Weapons" to "have the Quick to Fire special rules". One of the many oversights the errata team have yet to address in the Skaven book.

Emissary
22-07-2011, 18:05
Yeah, they're supposed to (or, at least, should) be, but the Poisoned Wind Globe has yet to be updated from saying "are treated as Thrown Weapons" to "have the Quick to Fire special rules". One of the many oversights the errata team have yet to address in the Skaven book.

I think anyone that says they don't get quick to fire when the Skaven book says "Globes are thrown weapons as per the Warhammer rules..." when thrown weapons get quick needs to lighten up. It's pretty clear.

Waycool484
29-07-2011, 03:23
Drop the doomflayers and put some weapon teams with the clanrats (warpfire throwers or poison wind motors work well) also save some points to spend on slaves. No Skaven army should ever have a doomwheel without a unit of slaves nearby!

lovedinplaster
29-07-2011, 16:23
I agree, the doomwheel loses out in combat vs elite units, and is a waste of points spent in combat with weak infiltry. You'll need a combat block to put up numbers so your doomwheel doesn't get wasted

Ratling guns are not as bad as peoe think. Especially with 8th edition rules putting so much importance on big blocks. It can easily take out a chariot or other single pieces of importance. It is either ignored, and left to wreck Havoc, or is targeted instead of something important.

sons of osiris
29-07-2011, 17:11
wow you guys no your skaven stuff :) reading throgh this just helped out alot for me.cheers.

Jolly Puggles
29-07-2011, 17:29
Ratling guns are not as bad as peoe think. Especially with 8th edition rules putting so much importance on big blocks. It can easily take out a chariot or other single pieces of importance. It is either ignored, and left to wreck Havoc, or is targeted instead of something important.

The biggest gripe people have about the Ratling Gun is that it's not as good as it used to be. When it used to Auto-Hit, it was a good multi-purpose alternative to the Warpfire Thrower, because you could Spray-and-Pray large infantry units or snipe independant models. Now, it's only good for targeting independants because it can't muster enough firepower to justify targeting anything but the smallest units. This doesn't sit well in my mind because the words "snipe" and "minigun" are not often used in the same sentance without "can't" in there somewhere as well!

As it stands, of the 4 Weapon Teams, the Ratling Gun has to come 3rd because of the fact that after the risk of determining how many shots you're going to get, you then have to halve it because of the Engineers' lousy Ballisitc Skill...you might as well treat each dice you roll as a D3 when you're rolling for number of attacks. Barring Misfire, the most shots you'll get is 21. On average 10 of those will hit, only 6 or 7 will wound and anything with an armour save of 4+ or better still gets a save. That's the best it will do. More typically, you'll only get about 9-12 shots, 4-6 hits and 3-4 wounds...on a good day. If it were Move and Fire, like the Mortar, it might be worth taking, but because you have to take the time to set up your shot due to Move or Fire, it's a lot of effort for really unspectacular results. I'll admit, the Warpfire Thrower has some of the same problems (combined with the most lethal Misfire Chart in the game!), but when a Warpfire Thrower works it's actually impressive. When a Ratling Gun performs at its peak, you're left going "oh, is that it?". I've never once seen a Ratling Gun do anything more than a dozen or so casualties over the course of a battle, but I regularly see Warpflame devastate whole units and even armies.

sons of osiris
29-07-2011, 17:46
so ratalings and warpfires arnt worth taking? o.O

Jolly Puggles
29-07-2011, 19:08
so ratalings and warpfires arnt worth taking? o.O

Ratling Guns aren't worth it. Warpfire Throwers are harder to use that Poisoned Wind Mortars, but against low Toughness opponents, like Elves and Empire, are truly devastating. If in doubt, though, just go for the Mortar...you'll almost always get good results

lovedinplaster
03-08-2011, 01:05
Does the poison wind mortar still hit 4+ center and 5+ for the rest? Or was this changed with 8th edition rules? It's true warpfire thrower is best vs elves.. The army it's worst against because of fast cav and heavy middle fire. I normally field 2 warpfire, and a globe unit with a Pwm.. But my boneripper is my 3rd warpfire..

Even with the 5+ hits on the mortar.. I've had more success in two games with that thing than I have my entire career of gaming.. But all my opponents play heavily armored troops.