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Dragonreaver
24-07-2011, 21:35
My question is, is there a situation that anyone can think of where both saves are allowed, it would matter if a ward save was taken BEFORE an armour save?

The reason I ask is (and I'm fully aware of how trivial and irrelevant this is :D), it's always made more sense to me and a mate of mine to take the ward save FIRST, since that's usually an un-natural save such as quick reflexes, magic wards, or parries, that prevent the attack from hitting home in the first place. Whereas an armour save is a test to see if the armour holds up when it IS hit.

So therefore: To Hit -> To Wound -> Ward Save -> Armour Save makes more sense to us. Although possibly only to us. In the entire world.

There are drawbacks of course (you'd need to roll more dice in total, as units are much less likely to pass ward saves than armour saves, so a greater number will need to roll both doing it this way). But we were wondering if this approach would make any rules go squiffy, or lead to unexpected circumstances. I can't see how, but...

Lord Inquisitor
24-07-2011, 21:40
My question is, is there a situation that anyone can think of where both saves are allowed, it would matter if a ward save was taken BEFORE an armour save?
There are a few isolated cases where it would matter. For example, the Opal Amulet in the rulebook.


So therefore: To Hit -> To Wound -> Ward Save -> Armour Save makes more sense to us. Although possibly only to us. In the entire world.

Tell you what would make even more sense:
To Hit -> Ward Save -> Armour Save -> To Wound.

After all, the arrow doesn't actually wound you until it has gone through your armour.

RMacDeezy
24-07-2011, 23:12
i believe i saw in a rick priestley interview from way back that they decided to make the save the last throw in order to give the owning player a feeling of having a little more control over his models, a chance to "save" them.

Necromancy Black
25-07-2011, 06:16
Basically the real order is Attacking player does all his rolls -> Defending player does all his rolls.

It's easier then breaking up the order of who rolls what and when.

Sturen
25-07-2011, 11:21
And don't forget the Luckstone, it gets a little better with that change. Any rules that give a benefit to wards or armour on the first wound or for the last wound ect. get stronger (armour saves) or weaker (ward saves).

Nubje
25-07-2011, 13:32
But if the ward save is before the attack hits could you not also state that it should be:
Ward save -> to hit -> armour save -> to wound..

The ward save should be a reflex or magic thingy and if this doesn't "dodge" we should look if the attack actually hits. Or are we looking at this way too seriously? ^^

Dragonreaver
25-07-2011, 17:44
[COLOR="Magenta"]Tell you what would make even more sense:
To Hit -> Ward Save -> Armour Save -> To Wound.

After all, the arrow doesn't actually wound you until it has gone through your armour.

Correct though you are, even the most anally retentive person I know (aforementioned friend :p) even has to concede that passing all those dice back and forth between us so often would slow the game down too much. :P Besides, I kinda agree with Rick Priestly (as paraphrased in an earlier post in the thread); I like having a save against stuff after they've been "wounded". It'd be way less fun to roll your saves first and then let your opponent roll after to see how many of the rest die horribly. It's bad enough when you have no ward save and his strength negates your armour. The phrase "roll to kill" is one I hate hearing my opponent use. _

Having looked up the Opal Amulet though, it does seem it would make that and similar items a lot less useful. It would be silly to use up a costly one-use item, only for your mundane armour save to end up saving you anyway...

Hopefully this will convince him that the game works like that for a reason. ;)



But if the ward save is before the attack hits could you not also state that it should be:
Ward save -> to hit -> armour save -> to wound..

The ward save should be a reflex or magic thingy and if this doesn't "dodge" we should look if the attack actually hits. Or are we looking at this way too seriously? ^^

I see your point on this one but, before you've rolled to hit, you have no way of distinguishing between missed shots and "dodged" shots. So you'd have to roll a boatload of ward saves, then you'd have no way of knowing which of the models that failed their ward save actually got hit.

Say you fire 40 arrows at me, and I roll 40 ward saves and fail 30 of them, then you roll to hit and only hit with 25 arrows... how do we know which of those 10 successful ward saves were from models that would have been hit anyway?

It makes perfect sense to both of us that a model has to be hit by something in order to be saved from that hit. ;) We (moreso him, but he cba to register an account) were just wondering what effect switching the saves around would have.

The more I think about it though, the more I realise that it's not only a very trivial and silly change, but also quite a bad one.

Dux
25-07-2011, 17:56
There are some items where that would make a difference.
Two I can remember:
DE have an item that gives a ward save and for every one you pass the enemy gets hit.
Brets have an item that grants a 2+ save when the bearer is down to 1 wound. If you roll wards second you can roll all armor saves together.

I'm sure there are more.

Lord Inquisitor
25-07-2011, 18:03
Correct though you are, even the most anally retentive person I know (aforementioned friend :p) even has to concede that passing all those dice back and forth between us so often would slow the game down too much. :P Besides, I kinda agree with Rick Priestly (as paraphrased in an earlier post in the thread); I like having a save against stuff after they've been "wounded". It'd be way less fun to roll your saves first and then let your opponent roll after to see how many of the rest die horribly.
Eh, I think a bit part is just that's what we're used to. Flames of War, if you're shooting troops in bulletproof cover, you roll to hit, they roll to save, then the firer rolls firepower checks if he can penetrate the cover, which is roughly equivalent to the "to wound" step. So it goes To Hit -> Save -> "To Wound". You get used to it very quickly.

Then again, I'm not sure Flames of War is a great system either. I find the infantry save an entirely superfluous roll. Since all infantry get a 3+ save, you could just adjust the "to hit" roll and hit Conscripts on 4+, Trained on 5+ and Veteran on 6+ and you could cut out infantry saves and a whole step with much the same probability of success. I can only assume it is in there for exactly the reason you're saying - to give the defender the feeling they have a chance to "save" his units.

BEEGfrog
26-07-2011, 18:29
I see your point on this one but, before you've rolled to hit, you have no way of distinguishing between missed shots and "dodged" shots. So you'd have to roll a boatload of ward saves, then you'd have no way of knowing which of the models that failed their ward save actually got hit.

Say you fire 40 arrows at me, and I roll 40 ward saves and fail 30 of them, then you roll to hit and only hit with 25 arrows... how do we know which of those 10 successful ward saves were from models that would have been hit anyway?



Determine 40 arrows are shot -> 10 saved by ward -> 30 rolls to hit -> 16 hit -> 16 AS -> 6 saved -> 10 rolls to wound (kill!) -> 5 dead.

The probability of the result stays the same, but, as has been pointed out, it affects some items.

Dragonreaver
26-07-2011, 23:28
Edit: Ignore. I worked it out while editing the post and it worked out perfectly. So uhhh. yeah, I guess it works. :p

Lord Inquisitor
27-07-2011, 00:59
Ha! It feels different but if you think about it mathematically, it has to work.

The probability of a given arrow (BS2, no modifiers), wounding a T3 opponent with a 5+ save and a 6+ ward is as follows

1/3 (prob of hitting) * 1/2 (prob of wounding) * 2/3 (prob of failing armour) * 5/6 (prob of failing ward)

The math works out the same whichever order you put the steps.

1/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 1/3 * 5/6 * 2/3 * 1/2

NTJ2010
27-07-2011, 03:57
The Stone of the Crystal Mere would be affected by the order of the saves.
If the wood elf character has a armor and that stone he/she is much better off getting the ward save second, seeing as if they fail the ward save once it is gone forever.