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Sanguinus
25-07-2011, 13:23
i was wondering as beastmen are children of chaos couldn't they have marks of chaos this could represent say nurgle claiming them as his own. I think that Gors could really benefit from the 1+ to the toughness characteristic that comes with the nurgle mark :confused:

Ramius4
25-07-2011, 14:42
First off, the Mark of Nurgle hasn't given +1 Toughness for about 10 years now since 5th edition...

And no. Beastmen can't get marks of chaos in their most recent army book.

Jack of Blades
25-07-2011, 14:47
First off, the Mark of Nurgle hasn't given +1 Toughness for about 10 years now since 5th edition...

And no. Beastmen can't get marks of chaos in their most recent army book.

The mark of Nurgle used to give +1 T? hmm... so the marks made sense in the past, well that's cool to know :)

streetsamurai
25-07-2011, 14:48
IIRC Beastmen could only get mark in the 5th or 6th edition chaos book.

They couldn't before as they were considered the undivided children chaos.

Prefer them not getting mark, was a bad concept and didn't fit with them imo

Ramius4
25-07-2011, 14:50
The mark of Nurgle used to give +1 T? hmm... so the marks made sense in the past, well that's cool to know :)

Yes... when the Hordes of Chaos book came out in 6th and suddenly it gave the unit Fear... Yes fear... I was confused to say the least.

But the current mechanics for Nurgle make just as much sense as +1 Toughness to be honest.

decker_cky
25-07-2011, 15:13
IIRC Beastmen could only get mark in the 5th or 6th edition chaos book.

They couldn't before as they were considered the undivided children chaos.

Prefer them not getting mark, was a bad concept and didn't fit with them imo

There was marked beastmen in the realms of chaos books, so that can't be right.

Dragonreaver
25-07-2011, 18:02
Plague Marines in 40k get +1 Toughness (effectively, compared to regular CSM), so that might be where the confusion came from.

And Fear seems to make sense (granted, I don't know what the other marks infer). Makes them potentially more effective in combat (especially against things that should be afraid of them, like your average Imperial militiaman and goblins (although Skaven have probably seen worse, to be fair :p)) without making them a PITA to kill across the board.

To be honest, +1T for something smelly, diseased and rotting to bits never really made sense to me anyway. If I didn't have a shower for six months, I'd probably be a lot easier to kill once you got over the stench. Definitely not HARDER to kill. So Fear works for me (it stinks so bad and is so utterly visually revolting it makes you want to throw up, or get away from it).



Oh, and as for the original topic, Beastmen aren't in either of the Chaos books, and Marks aren't in the Beastmen book. Soooo. I'm gonna go with a 'no' on that one. :P GW seem to want to make Beastmen a standalone force, separate from "Chaos". They can be Chaotic if you want them to be. You can have Chaotic Dwarfs if you want to model them that way. But they're not part of the "Chaos" army any more, so they shouldn't have marks.

A lot of things would "really benefit from +1 Toughness". Doesn't mean they should be able to take (what is essentially) an upgrade from someone else's book. :P

If, when GW revisit Beastmen, they decide to re-include Marks of Chaos as an upgrade, then fair enough. But until then I think GW is trying to get away from that and give Beastmen their own, non-Chaosy character. At first glance, their very nature seems Chaosy, but you could say that about Skaven or Ogres too. Within the Warhammer world, they're no more Chaos than Wood Elves, really. They're shamanic tribes of bestial bipeds that live in the woods and are really good at ambushing prey. Their prey just happens to be 'everything'. Remove "live in the woods and are really good at ambushing prey", and that sentence could've been about Orcs and Goblins. Nobody's ever claimed THEY should have Marks of Chaos.

It's commonly believed that Beastmen aren't that great right now, but that's always 'commonly believed' about at least one army at any given point in time.

Jolly Puggles
25-07-2011, 18:11
To be honest, +1T for something smelly, diseased and rotting to bits never really made sense to me anyway. If I didn't have a shower for six months, I'd probably be a lot easier to kill once you got over the stench. Definitely not HARDER to kill. So fear works (it stinks so bad and is so utterly visually revolting it makes you want to throw up, or get away from it).

+1 T was supposed to represent a certain immunity to pain...the favoured of Grandfather Nurgle, being so used to the agonies of the multitudinous diseases and general pestilence they've been infected with, can happily shrug off wounds that would incapacitate mere mortals and carry on fighting. You must remember that once a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, they are not neccesarily 'dead', as such, but are rather incapable of contributing further to the battle due to wounds.

I see no reason why Beastmen shouldn't be able to get a Mark of Chaos, fluff-wise (they've been able to in previous editions), but under the current rules it's a big phat "no".

Jack of Blades
25-07-2011, 20:10
But the current mechanics for Nurgle make just as much sense as +1 Toughness to be honest.

Not really... why would a Nurgle follower be harder to hit? and why does it make it harder for a halberdier to hit a marauder but a high elf is unaffected by Nurgle's blessings? and what kind of blessing is it to be surrounded by a cloud of flies, is that the blessing? what does the blessing in itself do? why would it be harder to hit someone just because lots of flies surround him? why would people worship Nurgle if he doesn't do what his fluff says he does, instead he makes flies surround you? :wtf:

T10
25-07-2011, 21:19
The current Mark of Nurgle isn't particularly impressive. Modifying WS when attacking the marked model is rarely very effective. Some few models will hit on 4+ instead of 3+, and some few models will hit on 5+ instead of 4+. Sure, the Mark of Nurgle is undoubtably the best choice for a unit bearing the Banner of Rage, but that's about it.

Dragonreaver
25-07-2011, 21:26
Sure, the Mark of Nurgle is undoubtably the best choice for a unit bearing the Banner of Rage[...]

... which in and of itself is a bit unfluffy. Although having paid all those points for the Mark of Nurgle, I understand why you'd gladly march under something called the Banner of Rage. :p

Sanguinus
25-07-2011, 21:34
thanks for the info i just thought that you got the 1+ toughness because i have a really old chaos book and even though the beastmen are chaos undivided there is a bit on the ungor raiders page ( a squareish box in the bottom right) that says some beastmen take delight in carrying the plagues of the forest created by nurgle and also it says that the very same beastmen become immune to pain blessed by chaos. So that made me think they might be able to.

Harwammer
25-07-2011, 22:24
Dragonreaver: The Beastmen are the true children of Chaos.

Dragonreaver
25-07-2011, 22:37
Dragonreaver: The Beastmen are the true children of Chaos.

Yes, but does the child have to grow up to be just like daddy? Does something Chaos created have to be thought of as evil and chaotic?

Bit deep for a rules discussion perhaps. :D

Harwammer
26-07-2011, 09:48
Yes, but does the child have to grow up to be just like daddy? Does something Chaos created have to be thought of as evil and chaotic?

Bit deep for a rules discussion perhaps. :D

Very deep! Oddly whether beastmen are chaos or not does come up quite often in this forum though. Partially due to the Brahmir Statue (sp?) of the Ogre Kingdoms.

Here's a couple of my previous responses to the subject...
From 'tongue in cheek':
While Beastmen have received gifts from Chaos the feeling is no longer reciprocated... Beastmen and Chaos have split up... Indeed the beasts have filed a restraining order to avoid attracting the undesired attention of the eye of the gods.

Any statements linking beastmen with either skaven or chaos will be treated as deformation...or the more considered:
as hinted above, I still consider Bm a chaos army. Fluff wise they are still totally in league with chaos and even receive units and gifts explicitly denoted as chaos. You'll notice model-wise there are lots of horned variants of the chaos star: fluff, rules and models all chaos aligned.

(pg3)
"INTRODUCTION
The Beastmen are the true Children of Chaos"
"So profound is the Beastmen's hatred of order and reason that they seek to drag the world kicking and screaming into a barbaric and primal age"
"The terrible profanities they commit in honour of the ancient, thirsting gods they worship"
"Gifts of Chaos your mighty characters can receive should Chaos judge them Worthy"

Pretty explicit they are chaos there... Let's look at page 6
"ORIGINS OF THE BEASTMEN
Beastmen willingly embrace their heritage of Chaos... For since the birth of their race they have belonged body and soul to the Ruinous Powers."
"They are not creatures of nature ... They are a twisted product of Chaos... Belong to Chaos as fully and completely as a shark belongs to water".
"Chaos... Chaos ... Chaos... Chaos...Chaos ... Thus was the race of Beastmen born into the world"

There's also a little box on the page concerning:
"THE REALM OF CHAOS"
"Though born of Chaos, they are native to the forests"

Basically the entire book continues thus, I don't really see how you can argue Beastmen aren't Chaos when it is so incredibly/repeatedly explicit! Indeed the fluff even gives shout outs to the Gods, such as, "By the power of the being Man names Nurgle, the Beastmen are enamoured of such foulness, for that which doesn't kill them makes them stronger".

In summary your opponent is being cheesy using the statue (but that's what it's there for) but you're being cheesier trying to claim beastmen aren't chaos. Yea, it's hard with it screwing over your Ld tests, but if it's a tailoring game you could be blasting him with pits and suns or maybe using more frenzy based builds (if you don't mind screening or checking for restraint).

So a bit of food for thought there on whether Beastmen are a chaos force or not.

T10
26-07-2011, 10:12
... which in and of itself is a bit unfluffy.

"Fluff" with regards to the traditional animosity between the Chaos Gods was abandoned in the WoC book. I can understand why: it is both more flexible and does away with the need for separate "themed" item/gift options.

And then again, if you really want "fluff", sub-optimal themed combos are still available. Nobody is forcing anyone to take the mixed-God combos.

Sanguinus
26-07-2011, 23:36
A lot of things would "really benefit from +1 Toughness". Doesn't mean they should be able to take (what is essentially) an upgrade from someone else's book. :P
.

that may be but it's the fact that the beastmen are closesly connected to chaos that confuses the issue. Really if something makes sense you can usually do it in warhammer so really unless it says diretly that you can't it doesn't seem logical to not be able to give them marks.

Ravenar
27-07-2011, 08:07
that may be but it's the fact that the beastmen are closesly connected to chaos that confuses the issue. Really if something makes sense you can usually do it in warhammer so really unless it says diretly that you can't it doesn't seem logical to not be able to give them marks.

Except for the fact that the marks are in one [current edition] army book, Warriors of Chaos, and the Beastmen have their own army book without marks in it. Combining army books is as bad as swooping.

Harwammer
27-07-2011, 12:07
Sanguinus although there is scope to paint/model/fluff God marks into a beastmen army there is no mechanism to implement marks in the current rules (beyond taking items/gifts that reinforce theme).

Sanguinus
27-07-2011, 13:05
fair enough i just thought that there could be some logic and sense i guess to be able to give marks of chaos to beastmen i can understand your answer on this Harwammer and have gotten a decent enough answer this seems to be a rather debatable subject because of fluff and other such things :p