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Sanguinus
25-07-2011, 22:49
What would be the best way for beastmen to combat the high elves always strike first rule minotaurs can use impact hits but what about gors and ungors. How can i nullify the advantage of the Elves?

tmarichards
25-07-2011, 23:15
Chariots will deal large amounts of damage before the ASF comes into play, and High Elves simply can't afford to lose models at the rates that chariots will kill them. Whittle down their numbers this way, then engage.

Wildform spam will also help- T5 infantry will be very survivable against Swordmasters, and White Lions just don't have the attack output to outmatch you in combat.

wingate32
25-07-2011, 23:26
Another viable way is to use way more models than he. Thanks to steadfast you can remain a round or two and HE's main problem is their low toughness. Even if Swordmasters/White lions kill 10-13 gors in a round you will strike back and kill the same amount. Remember that HE units is way more expensive and that he doesn't have access to any spells that raises your Toughness. Wyssans is great.

Sclep
26-07-2011, 00:01
Don't HE have access to lore of life?

metalloveman
26-07-2011, 01:50
Taking a cygor can really help, because High elves have really over priced shooting and don't like having rocks thrown at swordmasters or spearmen. White lions on the other hand are harder to deal with, against them I suggest to drowning them or tying them up with a huge group of ungor. If your fighting phoenix guard good luck. Their Heavy cav is just like any other and chariots are always good vs any kind of elf.

On the magic front using lore of shadows to lower their I and Ws can make their combat units not so scary as well has mindrazoring your own units. the pit of shades and the pendulum are kinda useless though.

beasts I wouldn't take unless you have a doom bull

death is nice for sniping out the arch mage and soulblight is a game winner, never cast purple sun against elves(duh)

I'd probally stick with shadow

oCoYoRoAoKo
26-07-2011, 08:18
Ive actually got a game later today vs High elves with my beasts (Beastlord+GBS, 3 Shaman Shadowspam, BSB, 30 Bestigors, 40 Gors + 40 Ungors, 2 Razorgors, Ghorgon, 2 x ungor Skirmishers VS Dragonlord, 2 Shadow mages, BSB, Banner of Sorcery, Phoenix Guard SC, 2 x 25 Seaguard, Phoenix Guard, 2 x Bolt Throwers).

The general plan is to hold up the phoenix guard for a while with the ungors - 15 attacks from the PG should equal approx 8 kills/turn vs approx 1 kill/8 ranks of steadfast gives about 2-3 rounds of combat with them out of the game.

This just leaves the two blocks of Seaguard and the Dragon/Bolt Throwers.

The main problem here is the debuffs from the lore of shadows. If i can get in early enough with the Razorgors/Ghorgon it is fairly easy to kill off those mages. The Seaguard will die in droves to hoarded Gors/Bestigors (7 wide on both gives 12vs6 kills and 13vs4 kills respectively). The Dragon, i dont quite have a plan for except have my Beastlord rip it's face off (magically buffed of course).

All in all, it depends on who gets the first turn. If i get it then i can reduce the BS of the Bolt-Throwers/Seaguard to get me there in one piece. If my opponent does, then he can reduce my toughness/movement to kill more stuff.

Gotrek
26-07-2011, 12:16
miasma lowers I means they loose the reroll.
chariots go before ASF
big steadfast ungors can hold them for quite a while
wildform on gors/bestigors means they'll have a hard time wounding you.
you should have at least twice the number of their troops.
elves can't handle atrition battles very well becouse they're made out of paper and expensive while you can and should go on that sort of combat.

these advices in any combination should help out againt them.

GenerationTerrorist
26-07-2011, 22:08
When I play against Beasts with my HE, the three things I actually fear seeing most on the opposite side of the table are:
- 50%+ of the Core filled with Chariots
- Horde of Bestigors
- Mino-Bus of Doom

I seriously struggle to deal with the above, as my Swordmasters/LSG die in droves before they can do enough damage back to the Chariots, and the two ranked units are equally (if not more so) killy than my own units and also decidedly tougher.

Not sure why everyone seems so down on how strong Beastmen are as an army, because they always seem to put up a very decent showing in games I've seen them so far in 8th Edition.

oCoYoRoAoKo
27-07-2011, 10:16
Ive actually got a game later today vs High elves with my beasts (Beastlord+GBS, 3 Shaman Shadowspam, BSB, 30 Bestigors, 40 Gors + 40 Ungors, 2 Razorgors, Ghorgon, 2 x ungor Skirmishers VS Dragonlord, 2 Shadow mages, BSB, Banner of Sorcery, Phoenix Guard SC, 2 x 25 Seaguard, Phoenix Guard, 2 x Bolt Throwers).

The general plan is to hold up the phoenix guard for a while with the ungors - 15 attacks from the PG should equal approx 8 kills/turn vs approx 1 kill/8 ranks of steadfast gives about 2-3 rounds of combat with them out of the game.

This just leaves the two blocks of Seaguard and the Dragon/Bolt Throwers.

The main problem here is the debuffs from the lore of shadows. If i can get in early enough with the Razorgors/Ghorgon it is fairly easy to kill off those mages. The Seaguard will die in droves to hoarded Gors/Bestigors (7 wide on both gives 12vs6 kills and 13vs4 kills respectively). The Dragon, i dont quite have a plan for except have my Beastlord rip it's face off (magically buffed of course).

All in all, it depends on who gets the first turn. If i get it then i can reduce the BS of the Bolt-Throwers/Seaguard to get me there in one piece. If my opponent does, then he can reduce my toughness/movement to kill more stuff.

For some information, the battle went as expected. Ungors for ranks + Gors for damage saw off the phoenix guard and the seaguard at once (phoenix dont have nearly enough damage output and when you are killing 15+ seaguard a turn with gors its only a matter of time before they break.

The mages died as expected on turn 2 against the ghorgon and razorgors. Overall, it was a loss on my side (by 300 points) but if my GBS didnt decide to explode against that phoenix guard character (6 wounds :/ )it would have been an easy draw.

warplock
27-07-2011, 10:28
when you are killing 15+ seaguard a turn with gors its only a matter of time before they break.

I glance through the Beastmen book from time to time and have even made a couple of lists in the past, but this makes me think I might have misread something about Gors - even 7 wide with AHW and rerolls from primal fury I only have them killing 2/3 as many Seaguard as that on average in 2 combat phases. 2 S3 attacks each? Have I forgotten something :shifty:

drear
27-07-2011, 10:37
you need to find ways to shut down the magic phase, as its HE's bigest boon. without it they are t3 low armour save infantry.

oCoYoRoAoKo
27-07-2011, 14:11
I glance through the Beastmen book from time to time and have even made a couple of lists in the past, but this makes me think I might have misread something about Gors - even 7 wide with AHW and rerolls from primal fury I only have them killing 2/3 as many Seaguard as that on average in 2 combat phases. 2 S3 attacks each? Have I forgotten something :shifty:

Seaguard 7 wide is about the same amount of Gors in B2B. As long as they have extra hand weapons you get 29 attacks (40 gors in horde formation + champ, Beast-Banner BSB).

We have:
(29*.5) + (14.5*.5)= 21.75 hits
(21.75 * 2/3) = 14.5 wounds
(14.5 * 5/6) = 12.08 kills/Turn

+ another 3 kills from the BSB.

Note, this is at S4 (As i dont know anyone who doesn't bring a beast-banner BSB in their main Gor unit). If they were at strength 3 it would be:

(29*.5) + (14.5*.5)= 21.75 hits
(21.75 * .5) = 10.875 wounds
(10.875 * 4/6) = 7.25 kills/Turn

Thats 5 more kills per turn just by having strength 4. Over the course of the game you can easily make back the 200 points of the BSB on those extra kills alone.

Of course, once you add in even -1WS from shadows, the kill-count can go much higher.

Sanguinus
27-07-2011, 14:21
thanks for the help this will help a lot i have a game coming up against a friend who plays high elves and since i haven't been playing very long that strike first rule is a bit daunting to say the least :)

LordoftheBrassThrone
29-07-2011, 11:42
I don't know the Initiative of the dragon, but if you're having problems with it, pit of shades it. As a template attack it hits the dragon and the rider now. If the dragon has the I4 I remember, it might kill one of them. Or the pure risk factor might draw out loads of dispel dice :)

warplock
29-07-2011, 15:00
I don't know the Initiative of the dragon, but if you're having problems with it, pit of shades it. As a template attack it hits the dragon and the rider now. If the dragon has the I4 I remember, it might kill one of them. Or the pure risk factor might draw out loads of dispel dice :)

I thought you used the highest initiative, which would be the rider's, hence only fails on a 6.

popisdead
29-07-2011, 18:42
Gors are half the price of HE elite. With the Beasts Banner and Wissan's they are deadly.

The Stone of Spite removes HE mages.

Miasma drops Init.

Shard of the Herdstone allows for spamming Wissan's and Miasma

http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?act=idx has more answers :P