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Spiney Norman
26-07-2011, 10:18
From the SoM book, p. 32
"Any wizard who generates one or more of their spells from the lore in question will also know any cataclysm spells associated with that lore".

and p. 132
"When selecting spells, a Truthsayer can exchange one spell for the Transformation of Kadon, instead of the usual signature spell."

So if I elect to choose the Lore of Life with my Truthsayer, and exchange one of the spells for Transformation of Kadon I am generating spells from the Lore of Life and the Lore of Beasts. Following the logic that should mean my truthsayer knows the cataclysm spells from the lore of Life AND the lore of beasts, yes?

Lord Zarkov
26-07-2011, 11:40
It appears so

drear
26-07-2011, 12:56
apprently yes o.o

i think it was intended to mean he could always switch if he took beasts as his lore.
but its worded badly.

so id play it as yes he has both lores bigger spells (*:

Dahmon999
26-07-2011, 18:14
It could be argued that he isnt generating the Kadon spell but trading for it.

generate
1. to produce or bring into being; create

ex·change
1. To give in return for something received; trade: exchange dollars for francs; exchanging labor for room and board.
2. To give and receive reciprocally; interchange: exchange gifts; exchange ideas.
3. To give up for a substitute: exchange a position in the private sector for a post in government.
4. To turn in for replacement:

BEEGfrog
26-07-2011, 19:06
But the exchange is part of the generation process so RAW is both sets of bigger bangs

someone2040
27-07-2011, 07:37
apprently yes o.o

i think it was intended to mean he could always switch if he took beasts as his lore.
but its worded badly.

so id play it as yes he has both lores bigger spells (*:
I personally disagree. It was certainly intended this way, as there is fluff about Truthsayers being able to shapeshift to defend themself.
I think it's also an interesting idea to be able to have a signature spell not of the same lore.

I don't know if it's intended or not, but I would say that the Truthsayer does get the Cataclysm spells from both lores if you do take Transformation.

hashrat
27-07-2011, 12:59
Was thinking about the same thing for Dark Elves using Shadow as an example, RAW says I get the big spells for Dark and Shadow, but surely this wasn't RAI?

It does mention "unless stated otherwise", but nothing is stated, so right now my DE fire sorcerress, has both fire and dark SoM spells.

Doesnt feel right.

Lord Zarkov
27-07-2011, 13:08
Was thinking about the same thing for Dark Elves using Shadow as an example, RAW says I get the big spells for Dark and Shadow, but surely this wasn't RAI?

It does mention "unless stated otherwise", but nothing is stated, so right now my DE fire sorcerress, has both fire and dark SoM spells.

Doesnt feel right.
Remember Power of Darkness doesn't count as a Dark Magic spell, so you won't get the Dark Magic Catacysms if you take another lore

hashrat
27-07-2011, 13:27
I think that page 32 is confusing me, 2nd paragraph. 2nd sentence.

A wizard that generates one or more of their spells from the lore in question, will also know cataclysm spells from that lore *Simple enough*


The next sentence explains that others, are not associated with a particular lore, but rather races and realms. These are listed on page 49. *Simple*

Next sentence and the stickler.
Unless otherwise stated, all Wizards from the relevant WF army book, know all lores and spells associated with it.

Ok, the 1st one is obvious, a Fire mage knows the Fire Cataclysm spells.
2nd is easy, Bretonnians always know their spell regardless.

3rd point, well Dark Magic, is infact the primary DE magic, therefore quite clearly associated with them.

If as you suggest, it specifically means power of darkness, that clears it up. It makes sense.
I can see how it confused me though :) because RAW seems to suggest we all know Dark Magic even if we aren't using it.

I'll stick to your take that it means power of darkness specifically.

Lord Zarkov
27-07-2011, 15:23
Some of the race specific spells are associated with a specific lore (Dark Magic, High Magic, Lore of the Vampires, Lore of Nehekhara, Lore of Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh, Lore of the Wild, Spells of the Big/Little Waagh, Lore of the Great Maw, Spells of Plague/Ruin, etc), and others are associated with a specific army (Brettonia, Wood Elves, Lizardmen).

In the case of the former you need to have spells from that lore to get them (so if you take another lore you don't get them, even if you have something like PoD or Invoc as they don't count as part of the Lore).

In the case of the latter every wizard in the army (except skinks) gets them, regardless of what Lore they take.

Spiney Norman
28-07-2011, 09:30
I think that page 32 is confusing me, 2nd paragraph. 2nd sentence.

A wizard that generates one or more of their spells from the lore in question, will also know cataclysm spells from that lore *Simple enough*


The next sentence explains that others, are not associated with a particular lore, but rather races and realms. These are listed on page 49. *Simple*

Next sentence and the stickler.
Unless otherwise stated, all Wizards from the relevant WF army book, know all lores and spells associated with it.

Ok, the 1st one is obvious, a Fire mage knows the Fire Cataclysm spells.
2nd is easy, Bretonnians always know their spell regardless.

3rd point, well Dark Magic, is infact the primary DE magic, therefore quite clearly associated with them.

If as you suggest, it specifically means power of darkness, that clears it up. It makes sense.
I can see how it confused me though :) because RAW seems to suggest we all know Dark Magic even if we aren't using it.

I'll stick to your take that it means power of darkness specifically.

I think you're trying to wring too much out of that actually. There are 4 cataclysm spells that are tied to ARMIES rather than lores, 1 for Bretonnia, 1 for Slann ONLY and 2 for wood elf mages (presumably to make up for the fact that the lore of Athel loren has been completely ignored by SoM). These are ALL listed on p.49, it should be noted that the dark magic/high magic spells are not among them, fairly obviously because these cataclysm spells are tied to lores NOT races.

In context the following sentence only pertains to the spells listed on p.49 because it is a continuation of the previous sentence.
"Unless otherwise stated, all Wizards from the relevant Warhammer army book know all of the spells associated with that army"

This certainly does NOT include all dark elf wizards knowing the dark magic cataclysm spells. I would speculate that the "unless otherwise stated" clause is there to account for the Great Leveler spell, which is only usable by slann rather than skinks priests.

Any Dark elf players claiming that all their mages know the Dark magic cat spells because they automatically get the power of darkness spell deserve a slap just as much as any high elf player that claims his mages get the high magic cat spells because they know drain magic.

Lord Zarkov
28-07-2011, 12:39
The "Unless otherwise stated, all Wizards from....." line is also preceeded by "Others, and these are clearly marked, are not associated with a particular spell lore, but rather with races and realms and, by extension, the armies that fight for those races and realms (these spells can be found on p49)."
Emphasis mine

Only three sets (4 spells total) of spells are on p49, and these are all clearly marked with a little spiel about how they are known by the entire army. Only these spells are known by their entire respective army, the others are not!