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knightime98
27-07-2011, 09:04
If a ranked unit charges a skirmish unit - Does the Skirmish unit form on the unit that charged?

The rule book shows the Skirmish unit forming a block, however, it does not say or show how the ranked charging unit forms compared to the skirmish unit.

In essence, 6th and 7th edition the skirmishers always formed on the ranked unit. In 8th edition it appears that a ranked unit now will form on the Skirmish unit... ??? This is really a big change in the rules..

Just trying to make sense out of it..

Pages with references would be very helpful. Many thanks for your efforts...

Bitten Black Sheep
27-07-2011, 09:14
All quite clear on page 77 (although a bit messy)
The skirmishing unit bunches up so it looks and acts like a regular unit when charging or being charged.
They then follow all the normal rules so yes a charging ranked unit aligns to a skirmishing unit. A charging skirmishing unit would align to ranked unit.

Fubar
27-07-2011, 09:29
Skirmish rules are on page 77, it's all covered on there. They form up around the centre model and you position them as you would do normally.

knightime98
27-07-2011, 09:53
I was just making sure that what I was reading was making sense....

The problem with the game that I was in .. is that the skirmishers were blocking another charge... not so much a big deal.. however, when the skirmishers bunch up - they contract and make the charge illegal because it was now out of charge arc... so, this was a bit precarious. I attempted to charge the unit that was now in the charge arc that the skirmishers were blocking.. It became a failed charge anyhow..

Long story short, just now figuring out how the skirmishers work in 8th as I just assumed they were the same as 6th and 7th..

Bitten Black Sheep
27-07-2011, 11:54
Thats what I meant when I said it was a bit messy.
They bunch up and can suddenly be out of the charge arc.
Definitely very different to previous editions and made to operate more like regular units.
No 360 shooting either which can catch you out until you get used to it.

T10
27-07-2011, 14:26
The problem isn't that the skirmishers move out of the charger's forward arc when they bunch up: That restriction applies to declaring the charge, not on the charge move.

The problem is when the bunched-up skirmishers cannot be reached with the max-90-degree-wheel limit on the charge move. In this situation the charger's cannot legally make contact with the target. What is sure to annoy the charging player is that the opponent can wilfully create this kind of "impossible charge" situation.

-T10

knightime98
27-07-2011, 23:07
I hate that type of rules lawyering....

In a nutshell, if anyone tried to do that.. I'd simply say, that what they are doing to evade the charge is "fleeing"... That really is what they are doing - evading the charge. Now that the unit that you want to charge is out of the way - you can redirect to a unit that is in your charge arc.. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Which is what I was trying to figure out as the skirmish rule for 8th took me by surprise for this game. Until now, no one has brought it to my attention that skirmishers - "bunch up"...

1. So, the skirmishers move out of charge arc..
2. Redirect as the charge is illegal now against the skirmishers.

Seems simple enough and that's essentially the way we played it.

Yrrdead
28-07-2011, 02:43
Could you illustrate for me how one could "bunch up" enough to prevent a successful charge. I haven't seen anyone do it in 8th either , though I don't play against a lot of skirmisher units.

When I've tried to do it on scratch paper I've been unsuccessful. It seems (to me) that it is very very difficult to do.

Surgency
28-07-2011, 03:03
It seems (to me) that it is very very difficult to do.

its very difficult to do, but can potentially happen. The only way I can see it happening is when a unit can only be contacted corner-corner. I believe its also possible when using terrain to your advantage

knightime98
28-07-2011, 04:58
Hard to illustrate but I'll try..

Skirmishers

X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
.....................................^[charge arc]

Now, bunch the skirmishers up and the ^ is the extreme of the charge arc.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
................................^[charge arc]

oops the skirmishers are now out of your charge arc. They contracted OUT of your charge arc... It's not difficult at all considering they are up to 1 inch apart. You have 8 or 10 wide - you half it to about 5 inches to play with when you bunch up on either side of the middle. Actually it gets to be quite easy if you move only 1 or 2 models very close to the unit you want to block and put it right in front. When they declare the charge those one or two models move 3 inches and easily out of the charge arc now...

You have to think a bit outside the box of actually literal thinking with this abstract diagram.. if you catch my drift..

and I didn't even think of this until just now that the skirmish player can form ranks (though he can not claim them. This will allow the unit to contract even further.

XXXXX
XXXXX
..............^[charge arc]

Yrrdead
28-07-2011, 07:26
Uhm charge arc is irrelevant as T10 already pointed out.

And the bit about making ranks is wrong. You cannot do this. What makes you think skirmishers have this magical ability to essentially reform prior to a charge? The compacting down I get but making ranks just because?

Did someone pull a fast one on you?

I think that you are making a mountain of the proverbial mole hill.

knightime98
28-07-2011, 10:09
No one pulled a fast one on me. The book shows the skirmishers ranking up!

Did you even take a look ?

You can rank them up however you like so that you get the supporting attacks!

Please be for real when you ask the question....

T10 simply stated that the charge can be 'impossible' to make.. which is exactly what I was displaying.

Why is it that people want to argue ? I for one would not allow the opponent to manipulate the situation so that oh... you can't charge my skirmishers who are blocking you.. so that you can't charge the unit behind it either...

Simply put NO! I'm charging whatever is in the way! Don't do the double talk !

Like I said, you can't have your cake AND eat it too!

What is your proposed solution to the situation if you'd be so kind as to enlighten me..

T10
28-07-2011, 10:22
It seems (to me) that it is very very difficult to do.

Remember that when the unit bunches up the leftmost and right most models will move towards the center of the unit: the wider the unit (in of number of models) the further the models will move since there are more gaps to close.

To get away from the chargers the skirmishers will need sufficient "bunch up" move to bring them behind the chargers unit front.

Imagine a single rank of skirmishers facing the enemy unit's left flank, 1" away. If the skirmishers' leftmost model is just barely within the enemy's forward arc then the enemy can declare the charge, but if that model moves about 1.5 inches when the skirmishers bunch up then the enemy will not be able to complete the charge.

knightime98
28-07-2011, 11:03
Which is precisely what was going on with my particular situation.

The player argued that I had a 'failed charge' because it could not be completed. I argued that his skirmishers are no longer in the way and 'redirected' to the unit that I originally wanted to charge. My charge distance was not enough after we were done bickering like a bunch of gnoblars. So, I moved the unit up the failed distance leaving the skirmishers in the flank.

Surgency
28-07-2011, 14:07
Imagine a single rank of skirmishers facing the enemy unit's left flank, 1" away. If the skirmishers' leftmost model is just barely within the enemy's forward arc then the enemy can declare the charge, but if that model moves about 1.5 inches when the skirmishers bunch up then the enemy will not be able to complete the charge.

Thing is, though, the Skirmishers have to tighten their formation when they declare a charge reaction..

1) Unit A declares a charge on Skirmishers in Loose Formation
2) Skirmishers declare a hold reaction
3) Skirmishers tighten their formation
4) Calculate charge range (this is the only thing that can cause a failed charge)
5) Unit A wheels to face their charge target
6) Unit A moves into contact with Skirmishers

Keep in mind that their position when the charge is declared is how you'll determine what facing you hit. So if you start in the front arc, but the skirmishers contracting causes them to present the side arc, you'll still hit the front arc


and I didn't even think of this until just now that the skirmish player can form ranks (though he can not claim them. This will allow the unit to contract even further.
[charge arc]

You can't change ranks with a skirmishing unit when charged. Page 77, Skirmishers and Charging specifically says that the number of ranks, files, and facings do not change

Greyfire
28-07-2011, 14:59
The player argued that I had a 'failed charge' because it could not be completed. I argued that his skirmishers are no longer in the way and 'redirected' to the unit that I originally wanted to charge.
By the rules it was a failed charge. You can only redirect when the charged unit flees. They didn't flee so there's no redirect. If they contract so much that you can't reach them (I can only imagine this happening with beastmen - most players hereabouts don't field huge units of skirmishers with anything but them anymore - but it could happen) then it's just a failed charge.

Note that this can also cause a skirmishing unit to fail it's charge since the charge distance is rolled after the unit contracts.

Take advantage of it in the future. You forced the skirmishers to shrink in size. Maybe a second unit could take advantage of them no longer being in the way to reach your primary target. Sound like the perfect job for a small unit of five models.

Greyfire
28-07-2011, 15:15
Hmmm.... I hadn't realized that skirmisher charging skirmisher could make for difficult charges. Skirmisher A charges skirmisher B. B contracts around center model on front rank, say taking the unit from 7" down to 4". Unit A must also do the same. Now there's may be enough space to make a long distance charge on an angle fail.

That's something to remember the next time I play beastmen with my lizards. :)

T10
28-07-2011, 17:15
4) Calculate charge range (this is the only thing that can cause a failed charge)


Presumably the restriction on how the chargers move also count for something. Since the target unit moves (by bunching up) after the otherwise legal charge is declared, the situation may arise that the charge move cannot be completed. This isn't all that different from a charging unit that finds its path blocked by another unit that moved after the charge was declared and before the charger makes its move: this could be an enemy unit that has fled from a different charge, or even a friendly unit that has made its charge move before this unit.

The point is: it's not just the charge range that counts; you need to get there as well!

Surgency
28-07-2011, 17:34
well, true. Other units can get in the way. I'm just pointing out that by the time you get to step 4 the charge is valid, it was in your arc at the time the charge was declared, and the rules don't tell you to check to make sure the unit is still in your arc. Once you roll distance, you wheel and go

T10
28-07-2011, 19:33
Under normal circumstances yes; the target unit usually does not move after the charge has been declared (except when fleeing).

The only other circumstance I can think of is if the target unit must wheel to close the door against a different charge.

Yrrdead
28-07-2011, 23:24
You can't change ranks of skirmishers when making a charge reaction. I'm not sure how to say that to get you to understand. That is the only point I've made.

I asked for some assistance with how this could be accomplished which T10 and surgency helped out with. Though it is still very difficult and mainly relies on a conga line in the flank to accomplish this, otherwise the mechanics of how charges are made prevents this from happening. Though the addition of some helpful bits of terrain could make this slightly more viable.

As to my proposed solution....I don't have one because there isn't one. This isn't a "problem". The rules adequately cover this situation. This seems to be an extremely rare situation that if someone pulled it off intentionally then awesome. They are a much better player than I am.

My feeling at this point is that you don't like this and want to house rule it. Hey its your game , do what you like.

vinush
29-07-2011, 09:41
Aren't skirmishers now deployed with 1/2" gaps between their bases as opposed to last edition where they could be further apart?

I stopped using my empire archers because I couldn't get my head around the skirmisher rules, but now that I'm playing Lizardmen I really need to get to grips with them.

What this situation as presented here has become is a paradox. Unit A declares a charge against unit B. Unit B stands, thus contracting to normal ranked formation. Unit A can no longer reach unit B to charge. Unit B then reforms to their original spaced out deployment, making them a viable target once again.

Common sense in this situation would be to bunch them up so that they are still a viable target (move them all in towards the model closest to the charging unit as opposed to the centre of the front rank).

However, this is all assuming that Unit B wasn't just a massive conga line of models used to screen the rest of the army, because if it was, this tactic really sucks in the current edition as should they be wiped out, then the amount of mass panics this would cause is unreal!

THE \/ince

Surgency
29-07-2011, 12:20
What this situation as presented here has become is a paradox. Unit A declares a charge against unit B. Unit B stands, thus contracting to normal ranked formation. Unit A can no longer reach unit B to charge. Unit B then reforms to their original spaced out deployment, making them a viable target once again.

If you fail because of charge distance, then you move your unit the required distance, and move on to the next charging unit. You don't get to bounce back and forth between failed and successful charges.

As was stated before by myself and T10, there are only a few very specific situations that will cause a charge against skirmishers to fail outside of charge range

Greyfire
29-07-2011, 15:48
Unit B then reforms to their original spaced out deployment, making them a viable target once again.
The skirmishers won't be able to spread back out until their next move phase, not in the charge phase of their opponent. They won't tighten up and then relax. See the last paragraph on the first column of page 77 of the big book. So there's no conflict that I can see.

I have a few problems with the new skirmisher rules but it's more of a personality conflict. I have to admit the rules are fairly tight (IMHO and as demonstrated by T10 and Surgency's responses).

Es Mors
06-08-2011, 21:43
Hey guys, I can make everything worse!

From the BRB, page 77: "If skirmishers declare a charge (or a charge reaction that does not involve fleeing) they immediately tighten their loose formation into a 'normal' formation ..."

Now, from page 16 (notice the first occurence of the word "or"): "An enemy unit that has had a charge declared against it must hold or perform a charge reaction - shooting at the chargers or retreating from the threat."

And from page 17: "There are two types of charge reaction: Stand and Shoot and Flee! A unit that does not make a charge reaction is always considered to Hold."

If we are to take the rules literaly, the only time skirmishers bunch up when charged, is when they stand and shoot (since hold isn't a charge reaction). :wtf:

vinush
06-08-2011, 21:57
That's just mental!

THE \/ince

MLP
07-08-2011, 08:24
Personally I would use a house rule making the skirmish unit reform on the model that was the closest to the enemy(or one chosen to be charged by the enemy).

This is what I would think would happen in a actual situation. An enemy would charge the skirmish unit, the rest of the skirmishers would go to help their buddy who's munching on rusty axes.