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Dark_Warrior
28-07-2011, 23:02
Hey guys,

I have a few lists for 3k. I have played all three of them extensively (the dragon one being played considerably less), and between the three I have only lost a couple times. I do however, feel that there could be an improvement in them to bring them up to a more competitive setting. I am far from the best player and I know that, so that would be why I am sharing these lists with the community to get some feed back and criticism, and if possible, ways to improve on them to bring them up to a more competitive setting. Thanks

The first list is focused on mainly foot troops.

Lords
-Dreadlord w/ sea dragon cloak, soul render, Blood armor, Pendant of Khaeleth, Crown of command (246). General

-Supreme Sorceress w/ level four, sacrificial dagger (285) shadow

Heroes
-Master w/ bsb, Halberd, Armor of darkness, Dawn stone (159)

-Sorceress w/ level two, dispel scroll (160) fire? not really sure

-Death Hag w/ cauldron (200)

Core
-40x Corsairs w/ additional hand weapon, full command, sea serpent standard (450) Master and Lord go Here

-45x Warriors w/ full command, banner of murder (355) Level Four goes in here

Special
-18x Black guard w/ full command, Razor standard (314)

-18x Black Guard w/ Full command, banner of eternal flame (279)

-Cold one chariot (100)

-Cold one Chariot (100)

Rare
-War Hydra (175)

-War Hydra (175)

Total = 2998

-not really sure on the level two. Any thoughts on her?
-yes, no shooting. Reason behind this is that I can never figure out how to best use our shooting units
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The second list is focused on a big block of knights and less foot troops.

Lords
-Dreadlord w/ sea dragon cloak, heavy armor, shield, cold one, Whip of Agony, Pendant of Khaeleth, Crown of command (280). General

-Supreme Sorceress w/ level four, sacrificial dagger (285) shadow

Heroes
-Master w/ bsb, Lance, Cold one, Heavy Armor, Shield, Sea dragon cloak, hydra banner (214)

-Sorceress w/ level two, dispel scroll (160) not really sure again. possibly fire

-Death Hag w/ cauldron (200)

Core
-40x Corsairs w/ additional hand weapon, full command, sea serpent standard (450) Level two will possibly go in here

-40x Warriors w/ full command, banner of murder (320) Level Four goes in here

Special
-18x Black Guard w/ Full command, banner of eternal flame, iron curse icon (284)

-14x Cold one Knights w/ full command, banner of Hag Graef (453) Lord and bsb go in here obviously

Rare
-War Hydra (175)

-War Hydra (175)

Total = 2996

-Once again no shooting for the same reason as above, can't figure out how to use them effectively
-The level two bothers me in this list. She hasn't really done anything so I'm considering dropping her. Thoughts?
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The third list is similar to the second but only with a dragon instead of a lord on cold one.

Lords
-Dreadlord w/ Great weapon, Black Dragon, Armor of Darkness, Pendant of Khaeleth, Crown of command (561). General

Heroes
-Master w/ bsb, Lance, Cold one, Heavy Armor, Shield, Sea dragon cloak, hydra banner (214)

-Sorceress w/ level two, Tome of Furion (150) Dark

-Death Hag w/ cauldron (200)

Core
-40x Corsairs w/ additional hand weapon, full command, sea serpent standard (450)

-40x Warriors w/ full command, banner of murder (320) Level two goes in here

Special
-18x Black Guard w/ Full command, banner of eternal flame, iron curse icon, Blood Armor of Tower Master (299)

-14x Cold one Knights w/ full command, banner of Hag Graef (453) Bsb goes in here

Rare
-War Hydra (175)

-War Hydra (175)

Total = 2997

-Ok, there is no level four in this list because the dragon lord took up most of my lord points. This worries me, am i good on magic defense?
-The lore on level two is Dark so i have Chillwind and possibly Bladewind to help with war machines. Is that good?
-This list isn't as competitive as it can be, and definitely the weakest of the trio. I need help on this one.
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Ok, so I apologize for long post, didn't mean for it to be so long. Like I said, comments, criticism and most importantly advice, are welcomed and encouraged to help me bring these to a more competitive standing. As far as models go, I have everything in the book except crossbowmen (I know, it's sad.) so no worries there. Alright, thanks in advance, I'll reply back to you all for your comments. That's it, critique away!

tmarichards
29-07-2011, 00:00
I think I'll do 3 separate posts, one for each list- will be easier to read that way, as well as easier for my to focus! So, list 1:

I think you'd benefit from putting the Dreadlord on a peg, and swapping his armour and magic weapon for the Sword of Might and Dragonhelm. This'll give you a nice way to hold up nasty stuff you don't want to fight, or getting rid of monsters. He's far from essential in your list, but he is certainly more competitive than your current Dreadlord.

At 3000pts, you also have the points to put Lifetaker on the level 4, which I would recommend.

The best place for your BSB is the Cauldron, the Master BSB isn't optimal at all. In fact, there are very few situations where I would consider a Master being anything other than superfluous. I would drop him altogether.

I'd also just make the Fire mage a level 1. I've said several times in my battle reports thread (link in my sig) that I find her to be one of the best things in my list. She's not there so much to kill things as to draw out dispel dice by chucking a 2D6 or 3D6 Fireball at squishy things- think small units (especially of ethereals, fast cav), skirmishers or lightly armoured elites. This frees up your level 4 to power through a substantial Shadow magic phase in the face of less resistance.

40 Corsairs is a few too many in my opinion, I'd not go above 30 or maybe 35 tops, even at this points level. The champion isn't really necessary.

Split the warriors into 2 units- take one of 20-24 (I'd usually say 15-18, but you're playing with 600 more points than I usually write lists for) with just a musician, and maybe a standard bearer if you plan on playing the scenarios. This is where your mages will stay, and a good place for it is in the centre of your deployment zone, pretty much on the baseline. This is how I've used the bunker in my last few games, and it's worked fairly well (again, link to the games in my signature).

Personally, I'd then drop the rest of the warriors for 3 units of 10 xbows with musicians. However, if you don't want to run them, then combining the warriors into one big block will be fine.

I'd save the Banner of Murder for a Black Guard unit personally. I'd also be inclined to drop one unit of Black Guard for a unit of 25 Witches with standard bearer, musician and flaming banner. However, I can't really find a place for Black Guard in my lists any more.

Chariots are ok, but shades are probably better when you're already rocking 2 hydras I think. At 3000, I'd like 3 units of 10.

I think you could also benefit from at least 2, maybe 3, units of 5 harpies.

tmarichards
29-07-2011, 00:03
Onwards to list 2!

Put the Dreadlord onto a dark steed and give him the Sword of Might and Dragonhelm. That way, he can still run with the Cold Ones but can also run around doing his own thing if needs be.

Lifetaker on the Shadow 4 would be nice, and the Fire only needs one level in my opinion.

I don't usually rate the Hydra Banner BSB, but seeing as you're really going after the knight route, it's not so bad.

Other than that, same thoughts on the special and core as above.

tmarichards
29-07-2011, 00:10
And now the logical continuation...

Whip of Agony would be nice on the Dreadlord, you can also get him a decent armour loadout with full mundane and Dragonhelm- this gives him a 1+ save, and a 2+ ward vs flaming, for roughly the same number of points as the Armour of Darkness.

With a dragon, you really need something to charge in and take the challenge. You're also very short on magic defence. To help against both of these, I would suggest a Master on a Dark Peg with lance, heavy armour, shield, Cloak of Hag Graef and Whip of Agony. I ran this combo (Dreadlord and Peg Master) at Tempest: Ragnarok with some relative success (again, you can find the games in my signature, Be sure to watch the preview video, which explains why I ended up taking a dragon in the first place).

If you don't want the mounted hero, units of 5 dark riders with a champion will also serve the same purpose, albeit far more expensive and more vulnerable.

I don't really think the extra spell is a good idea on the level 2, I'd be inclined to go with a scroll, and maybe even just a level 1- you'll get precious little magic off, and the 35pts could probably be better spent elsewhere with regards to how much magic they'll stop. Use the Ring to shut down the opposing magic phase.

Other than that, I think you'll be able to guess what I would suggest...

Hope this has been useful, if you're at all interested in my thought process behind selecting an army then feel free to check out these 2 videos, where I go about selecting the 2400pts list I have been using with relative success for a while (it has evolved slightly, as you'll see if you watch and of the more recent games):


1/2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLFzuwmhaio
2/2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnTweFIqdbM

Dark_Warrior
29-07-2011, 00:43
@tmarichards first thanks for your responses. They were exactly the kind of advice I was looking for.

So for the first list, I see what you are saying about the Lord. I forgot to add that in my first post, but he doesn't really do anything for me in that list so I'm glad you found a solution for that. Would it still be viable to give him a lance instead of sword of might? I only ask because that is how he is modeled.

Good call on lifetaker, I forgot all about that item.

So, the bsb cauldron. Now, I keep hearing about this, but is it really all that great? I tried it once and it did ok, but nothing spectacular. I found the extra character in corsairs seemed to be more effective. If i was to run cauldron bsb, what is the most effective way to play it?

Sorceress lvl 1 seems like a solid thing to try just to suck up dice.

Its funny that you mention 35 corsairs. that's how i was running them, but they never did enough to justify their points. I used to run them 7x5. For a smaller unit like that how would you run them and still keep up their effectiveness?

Spearmen, I like the two units, problem is when i run a unit of 20, it gets hit by warmachines and other shooting too fast, especially if it has a lvl four in it. Should I hide it behind other units or something else? What about giving Lvl four iron curse so they have protection against warmachines too?

Like I said, no xbow models so probably just going to make a unit of 30 warriors instead.

Banner of murder on Black Guard. if I do that should I give spears another banner or leave them with out one? id have 45 points for banners at that point.

Harpies and shades have never really done anything for me. Unless I'm using them wrong, they just seem like free vp's to my opponent. (I do play against a lot of bretonians, chaos, and empire. even though I want an all comers list its hard to test those units in particular).

second comment.

For the lord, even if he's on a cold one he can still run around on his own, yeah he's moving slower but then he is still up with the rest of my army. Or is there another reason to take the steed?

See above for thoughts regarding wizards

If not hydra banner on bsb in this list, any other suggestions for the bsb? cauldron again?

see above for thoughts on special/core

third comment:

how can i take the whip and helm? isn't helm 10 points? I could be wrong, no book on hand.

If I'm taking Whip on lord, how does the peg also get it? or did you mean, I Could give lord whip, but not necessary? if that's the case, I agree, seems solid.

I see what you are saying about the sorceress. Where is the best place to put the ring? I'm assuming knights?

See above for thoughts on core/special/

Thanks alot for your input, it did help out. I will be sure to check out those videos. Thanks again.