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Pendragon
30-07-2011, 02:42
If a character equipped with a charmed shield and a great weapon (or halberd, or any other weapon that cannot be used with a shield in close combat) takes his first hit in close combat, does the Charmed Shield still let him (possibly) disregard it, as he isn't using it.

I'm leaning towards yes here, but I'd like the opinions of others.

shakedown47
30-07-2011, 03:04
There is currently no rules-supported verdict that I know of for your question (which has been asked many times.) My sense of logic says that as it is not a talisman or enchanted item or suchlike but is rather a magic item that would ostensibly require the use of WYSIWYG, and as such must be "equipped" to be used. That opinion is simply a reflection of my particular brand of common sense and conscience. Your opinion may differ. As it stand now we're both right, as far as I know.

Tarian
30-07-2011, 03:59
I'd say no. I have no rules to back me up, I only think it's a bit "cheeky" to claim a shield save (of any sort, magical or otherwise) with a 2-handed weapon.

Pendragon
30-07-2011, 11:17
I'd say no. I have no rules to back me up, I only think it's a bit "cheeky" to claim a shield save (of any sort, magical or otherwise) with a 2-handed weapon.

I was in that camp as well when the issue came up during a game (as we had a computer handy we did a quick search of the FAQ and then rolled off on it), but I've reconsidered somewhat. RAW leans towards it being allowed (IMHO), common sense favours your position somewhat (assuming that the magic of the shield doesn't merely make it a a "lucky charm" that works even when slung on the users back and not actively used, for instance).

Vishok
30-07-2011, 14:32
That's a big ol' NO.

You can't use it. For anything. With a Great Weapon.

At least while you're in close combat.

While it may not say that in the magic item description, in the section on shields it clearly states that you may not use a great weapon the turn you use your shield. If you're not "using" the item, you may not claim any bonus from it.

The only way you could use it would be against missile fire.

jioop
30-07-2011, 14:59
Rules clearly say that you can not use a shield in combat if you are to use Great Weapon, Halberd or anything that renders both your hands occupied while fighting. However, if your Great Weapon or Halberd were to be destroyed, then you can use the shield with the mundane hand weapon, that every model carries no matter what. But only then may you use the effects of the shield in close combat. Against shooting normal rules for wielding a shield apply.

shakedown47
30-07-2011, 21:19
Vishok and jioop I believe the problem in question is that, unlike magical weapons, there is no provision in the rules that states that the properties of magic armor are only in effect "while in use." The charmed shield simply states that the first hit is discounted on a 2+, not explicitly that the shield must be "in use" for it's effect to take place. While I'm in agreement with you that it's magical properties should only be used while being wielded, there are no rules that I know of to support our point of view.

Lord Inquisitor
30-07-2011, 21:25
Agree with shakedown. I've come across this before. Simply put, there isn't a clear rules resolution. Common sense would suggest you only get the benefit from a magic shield when you're actually able to use the shield however.

"If a weaon requires two hands to use, it is not possible for a model to use a shield ...alongside it in close combat (although a shield can still be used against wounds caused by shooting or magic)."

I'm willing to accept that "use a shield" is vague enough to suggest any use of a shield, including magical properties. But it's open to interpretation.

shakedown47
30-07-2011, 21:37
What it comes down to is that the wording for the Charmed Shield is vague as to whether or not its magical effect becomes inherent to the owning character, much like a talisman or enchanted item would, or if it is a property only available to someone actually utilizing it as a shield. It seems the board consensus is that you only get the effect if you're using it as a shield at the time the first hit is suffered. While that's far from an official ruling, OP, you asked for our opinions on it and there it is.

Pendragon
30-07-2011, 21:38
While that's far from an official ruling, OP, you asked for our opinions on it and there it is.

And it is much appreciated.

wingate32
30-07-2011, 23:31
I always play that you have to use the item to get the bonus. A talisman and armour is used by simply wearing them as they have no hand requirement. Shields on the other hand does require hands just like weapons. For me, this is a non-issue.

SilentCivilian
31-07-2011, 12:19
I would say no you cannot use the shield in close combat. I dont want to come across as a rules lawyer but it does state if you have any kind of weapon other than hand weapon and shield you must use it in close combat. As a great weapon or halberd does not let you use a shield in close combat it stand to reason you would not get this save.

I realise this is me linking the rules for coomon weapons with magic items but there is a logical order to it. Feel free to use the charmed shield against a shooting attack but not in close combat. That is how i would play it even if i myself had that combo.

Mid'ean
31-07-2011, 14:09
I would say no you cannot use the shield in close combat. I dont want to come across as a rules lawyer but it does state if you have any kind of weapon other than hand weapon and shield you must use it in close combat. As a great weapon or halberd does not let you use a shield in close combat it stand to reason you would not get this save.

I realise this is me linking the rules for coomon weapons with magic items but there is a logical order to it. Feel free to use the charmed shield against a shooting attack but not in close combat. That is how i would play it even if i myself had that combo.

The OP is not asking if you can use a shield and a 2 handed weapon at the same time. They are asking if the magical properties of the shield will function even if the shield is not being used. Not sure where I would stand on the issue.....:eyebrows:

T10
31-07-2011, 14:25
For me, this is a non-issue.

Sounds reasonable to me. If the model is in close combat and has a weapon with the Requires Both Hands special rule then he isn't using the shield.

wingate32
31-07-2011, 15:01
The OP is not asking if you can use a shield and a 2 handed weapon at the same time. They are asking if the magical properties of the shield will function even if the shield is not being used. Not sure where I would stand on the issue.....:eyebrows:

If you don't use your items, you don't get the bonus. A talisman and armour is used by simply wearing them as they have no hand requirement. Shields on the other hand does require hands just like weapons.

If you buy a magical weapon and a great weapon you don't suffer from ASL or get a +2 strenght bonus. Same thing with a shield.

Mercules
02-08-2011, 16:28
If you don't use your items, you don't get the bonus. A talisman and armour is used by simply wearing them as they have no hand requirement. Shields on the other hand does require hands just like weapons.

If you buy a magical weapon and a great weapon you don't suffer from ASL or get a +2 strenght bonus. Same thing with a shield.

What if my Ogre Tyrant looted one from someone not knowing what it was and started using it as a Gutplate? :D

Ok, on the serious side a friend chastised me for wasting points on it because I had a magical GW and so could "never use it". Then I got into a game against Dwarves and my opponent shot my unit with a Grudge Thrower and Organ Gun to get my unit down below 5 RnF. Then he tried to snipe my Tyrant.
"I hit your Tyrant! Yes!"
"Are you sure you "hit" him?" I ask innocently.
"Yep, hit him dead on." He replies
"Ok, Charmed Shield activates since this is the first hit and he avoids it on a 2+." I stated while picking up my dice.
He then went, "No-no, you were hit by those Rangers."
"In close combat." was my reply, where I was using a Great Weapon and couldn't be using the shield.
He went, "Yabut!" thought about what he was about to say. He then made a funny face and went, "So I guess you avoid it on a 2+."

BEEGfrog
03-08-2011, 22:12
RAW is that first hit is discounted by the bearer of the shield. Note the "bearer" not the "user". Whatever GW intended the rule to mean, you need to "bear" the shield in order to ignore the first hit. In standard English to "bear" includes carrying slung on back. You cannot get an increased armour save nor a parry ward while using a 2H weapon, but you do get the first hit discounted. The effect works like a talisman not like a shield, you only have to carry it, not use it.

Grimgormx
04-08-2011, 22:19
RAW is that first hit is discounted by the bearer of the shield. Note the "bearer" not the "user". Whatever GW intended the rule to mean, you need to "bear" the shield in order to ignore the first hit. In standard English to "bear" includes carrying slung on back. You cannot get an increased armour save nor a parry ward while using a 2H weapon, but you do get the first hit discounted. The effect works like a talisman not like a shield, you only have to carry it, not use it.

Also in the BRB saids (dont remember) that when a unit that uses a 2 hands weapon and is carrying a shield when they get in combat they just flung them to their back or just throw them away, so what happens? did they carry the shield in their backs or its in the floor.

If I wanted to abuse you, then I woul take a 2 hand weapon and the sword that gives always strike first, so when fighting I would say that I can strike firs because of my superior ini and the sword, even when Im carrying it in my belt. dont open the pandora box, amulets and armor are used by wearing, arms and shields has to be used in hands.

Pendragon
04-08-2011, 22:51
If I wanted to abuse you, then I woul take a 2 hand weapon and the sword that gives always strike first, so when fighting I would say that I can strike firs because of my superior ini and the sword, even when Im carrying it in my belt. dont open the pandora box, amulets and armor are used by wearing, arms and shields has to be used in hands.

Use of magic weapons always supercede the use of nonmagic ones. If you have a sword of swift slaying, you cant use your great weapon.

Superafro
05-08-2011, 05:56
What if my chaos guy is modeled with three arms one of which has a shield haha. Seriously tho I agree that if u cant use your shield in combat you dont gain any advantages from it

Lord Zarkov
06-08-2011, 18:31
If you start claiming the benefits for magic items you're not actually using you open a huge can of worms. For example, very few magic weapons say they actually have to be wielded in combat to get the benefit...

Lord Inquisitor
07-08-2011, 03:45
Yeah just today at a tournament someone pulled the following gem on me. Wizard carrying the Sword of Justice ("The bearer can re-roll failed rolls to wound") cast Fulminating Flame Cage on my unit (whole unit takes a S4 hit if they move). I moved the unit, he claimed he could re-roll to wound with the spell since the wizard had the sword. :eyebrows:

Tarian
07-08-2011, 03:59
Gets worse with the Sword of Hoeth, as all hits wound automatically. Doesn't even say bearer, just all...

Mr_Rose
07-08-2011, 12:26
If you start claiming the benefits for magic items you're not actually using you open a huge can of worms. For example, very few magic weapons say they actually have to be wielded in combat to get the benefit...
Yeh, except for, you know, the rule that says you do unless the weapon specifically says otherwise…

Lord Zarkov
07-08-2011, 13:05
Yeh, except for, you know, the rule that says you do unless the weapon specifically says otherwise…
The one in the FAQ? That only applies to characteristic bonuses, and is got round even by statements like "the bearer is..." (ref. Fencer's Blades).

IrishDelinquent
07-08-2011, 20:02
I was originally of the mind that the shield doesn't work with a great weapon in combat, but after talking it out with myself, I've changed my mind. The ideat that effects of magic weapons and armor only take effect in certain phases would open a great big can of worms, especially with items with a negative effect.

The main example I thought of was the Fellblade. Remembering a previous thread regarding the Fellblade and closed lists, the Fellblade's test was a major point of contention. If the effects of a magic weapon only take effect when you use the weapon, then the Fellblade becomes a lot safer. The player could simply say that they've sheathed the Fellblade, so they don't test until combat.