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TMATK
30-07-2011, 15:40
Wurzag is allowed to re-roll miscast results, opponent has the infernal puppet.

1) Roll the miscast, opponent rolls puppet, re-roll miscast if desired, opponent re-rolls puppet.

OR

2) Roll miscast, re-roll miscast if desired, opponent rolls puppet.

Obviously 1 favors the O&G player and 2 favors the WoC player. Do the rules cover this, or just D6 it?

Thanks

Tarian
30-07-2011, 16:14
I believe the answer will be "Whoever's turn it is determines order of items."

T10
30-07-2011, 16:52
My opinion: the re-roll on the Miscast table must be taken first in order to establish a "result" that can be modified by the puppet.

Regardless, I don't see how it can be justified that the Puppet roll is also rerolled.

Bodysnatcher
30-07-2011, 16:54
I would say the second because the puppet works on the final miscast result.

decker_cky
30-07-2011, 17:05
Person who's turn it is decides.

Q. There are several items that can affect miscasts, such as
Cupped Hands of the Old Ones, Soul of Stone and Infernal Puppet.
If more than one (or multiples of the same item) are present, in what
order should the effects be applied? (p102)
A. The player whose turn is taking place chooses.

From the lizardmen FAQ, but there's nothing lizardmen specific about the question or answer.

30-07-2011, 23:15
Edit;

Though after reading Infernal puppet it seems like it is not even an issue. The wording on puppet pretty clearly states it can be used "modify any rolls on the Miscast table made by any Wizard[...]". The puppet roll isn't a reroll. The puppet isn't limited to a single use per phase. The only reroll is Wurzag's. The puppet is simply allowed to modify every roll on the miscast table. I'm pretty sure that both the roll and reroll are ....rolls.

1. Wurzag miscasts
2. Resolves spell
3. Rolls on miscast table
4. WoC player rolls d3 and adjusts miscast roll
5. Wurzag rerolls.
6. WoC player rolls d3 and adjusts miscast roll
7. Resolve miscast.

decker_cky
31-07-2011, 00:06
Not allowed. The FAQ I referred to clearly refers to an identical issue - Soul of Stone + Infernal Puppet. The player whose turn it is decides what order they apply in and the puppet only applies a miscast once.

31-07-2011, 00:25
Not allowed. The FAQ I referred to clearly refers to an identical issue - Soul of Stone + Infernal Puppet. The player whose turn it is decides what order they apply in and the puppet only applies a miscast once.

I disagree , this isn't a sequencing issue. And though the issue is identical I believe that the Question in that FAQ is misleading. There is no sequence argument here. Soul of Stone, Wurzzag's ability allow you to reroll a miscast. That has no bearing on puppet. As puppet allows one to alter the result of rolls on the miscast table. Doesn't matter when or who is making the roll.

A Sorcerer with an Infernal Puppet may opt to modify any rolls on the Miscast table made by any Wizard on the battlefield by up to D3.[...]
Where does it say that the puppet only applies once?

decker_cky
31-07-2011, 01:23
I'd argue a roll and it's reroll is all part of a single roll.

31-07-2011, 01:29
Fair enough, I see it as two discrete events.

Mr_Rose
31-07-2011, 09:46
The roll and re-roll are the same "roll" for the purposes of determining results. The procedure for a re-roll should be:
Roll, determine result accounting for the puppet, re-roll, apply the same puppet modifier to the final roll result.
Or, basically, factor the puppet in as though it were a regular modifier in the vein "2D6+3" or whatever...

wingate32
31-07-2011, 10:48
So what's the problem? If he choose not to re-roll his result then you use the puppet. In that case it's to late for him to re-roll anyway.

T10
31-07-2011, 14:43
Where does it say that the puppet only applies once?
Where does it say that you get to roll the D3 again for each miscast? I assume that is the intended procedure, but rolling a single D3 on the first miscast and applying the same selected modifier to all other miscasts also "works" within the constraints of the item description.

wingate32
31-07-2011, 15:03
Where does it say that you get to roll the D3 again for each miscast? I assume that is the intended procedure, but rolling a single D3 on the first miscast and applying the same selected modifier to all other miscasts also "works" within the constraints of the item description.

The AB book says "...modify any rolls on the miscast table..."
That could easily be read as to you may use the items ability any time your opponent rolls on the miscast table, original roll or re-roll doesn't matter.

NTJ2010
01-08-2011, 05:10
1. Wurzag miscasts
2. Resolves spell
3. Rolls on miscast table
4. WoC player rolls d3 and adjusts miscast roll
5. Wurzag rerolls.
6. WoC player rolls d3 and adjusts miscast roll
7. Resolve miscast.
This.
(Assuming the O&G player lets the infernal puppet act before he decides to reroll or not...not sure why he wouldn't...)
The puppet doesn't say if he can only modify a certain number of miscasts per turn or anything therefore it can modify the first result, and if they reroll modify the second result.

Kalandros
01-08-2011, 07:17
I say the WoC player does NOT roll a second time but still applies the first result of his puppet roll to the rerolled miscast

1. Wurzag miscasts
2. Resolves spell
3. Rolls on miscast table
4. WoC player rolls d3 and adjusts miscast roll
5. Wurzag rerolls.
6. WoC player adjusts miscast roll again
7. Resolve miscast.

Spiney Norman
01-08-2011, 08:45
I say the WoC player does NOT roll a second time but still applies the first result of his puppet roll to the rerolled miscast

1. Wurzag miscasts
2. Resolves spell
3. Rolls on miscast table
4. WoC player rolls d3 and adjusts miscast roll
5. Wurzag rerolls.
6. WoC player adjusts miscast roll again
7. Resolve miscast.

This is the best, most logical solution to my mind. A reroll is not a different roll, its part of the same miscast chart roll, so there is no reason why the chaos player would roll the D3 twice if Wurrzag chose to reroll on the miscast chart, the chaos player would still get to modify Wurrzag's final total, but the amount of modification would not change.

What is crucial to note is that as per the FAQ the player whose turn it is chooses the order in which the effects are applied. So the Greenskin player can make the chaos player roll his D3 modification before he chooses whether or not to reroll the miscast roll, essentially items 4 and 5 on the order above can be reversed at the discretion of the Green skin player. Granted this isn't much of a benefit to the Greenskin player, but its much more important when using the cupped hands as the chaos player will have to modify the result before he knows whether or not the Lizardmen player is going to throw the miscast back at him.

GodlessM
01-08-2011, 11:49
Kalandros has it picture perfect here.

T10
01-08-2011, 12:26
Not quite. Kalandros makes the assumption that the D3 rolled for the puppet is somehow fixed while the selected modifier can be changed after the re-roll (e.g. from -1 to a +2).

It is either: first roll/re-roll the miscast, then roll for the Puppet, or: roll for the miscast and the puppet, then re-roll the miscast and roll again for the puppet.

I favour the first option.