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W.J.J.O.
01-08-2011, 00:57
Here's an HE army I plan to test in future.

Lords

Teclis, the High Loremaster of White Tower of Hoeth
Lore of High Magic/Fire/Heavens/Life (opinions about what lore should I use)
-475 points

Heroes

Cadian the Brave
High Elf Noble carrying battle standard with heavy armour and shield
-116 points

Core

Eryon’s Silver Spears
32 Spearmen with full command
-313 points

Althin’s War Drakes
18 Lothern Sea Guard with shields and full command
-259 points

The Unicorn Company
19 Archers with Hawkeye and standard-bearer
-229 points

Special

Blades of Hoeth
18 Sword Masters of Hoeth with full command
-300 points

Gold Swords of Hoeth
12 Sword Masters of Hoeth with Bladelord and standard-bearer
-204 points

Silver Swords of Hoeth
12 Sword Masters of Hoeth with Bladelord and standard-bearer
-204 points

Rare

Death Talon
Repeater Bolt Thrower
-100 points

Crimson Talon
Repeater Bolt Thrower
-100 points

Gore Talon
Repeater Bolt Thrower
-100 points


Total: 2400 points

Main battle line consists from the Spearelves, Sea Guard and Archers; these units form the anchor of the battleline. Spearelves deploy to the middle in 'HE Horde' (8 wide, 4 deep unit), with Sea Guard (deploy in 6x3) and Archers (10x2) on the both flanks suporting Spearelves.
Sword Masters are there to just, well, chop an' cut through the enemy units that come to their way; always deploy them with no more than two ranks to maximise the number of attacks (for example, 18 SM=9x2=28 attacks). Bolt Throwers and Archers + Sea Guard offer a strong fire base for the army.
Cadian (BSB) will deploy with Spearelves and Teclis goes with Archers.

Lets talk about Teclis a little more. Yes, he costs a whoping 475 points to field. Yes, he is a no good at close combat even with his magical sword. And yes, he is fragile character and tends to die too easily because of his low T. But those are minor errors compared to the overwhelming advantage in Magic Phase he brings with him; truly is Teclis the most potent wizard in the whole Warhammer World.
Pros and Cons for fielding him:

+Teclis is a level 4 wizard = +4 to cast, +5 to dispel
+Whichever lore he chooses, he knows all the spells from that lore
+Every casting roll that Teclis makes that includes a double other than double 6s causes spell to be cast with irresistable force, but without miscast (the double 6s still cause irresistable force and miscast)
+Thanks to the War Crown of Saphery, Teclis' every first miscast in every Magic Phase is ignored and the spell is STILL cast with irresistable force
+Moon Staff of Lileath confers D3 Power/Dispel dice every Magic Phase
+Teclis has an 'advanced' version of Dispel Scroll: The Scroll of Hoeth
+High Ld

-High point cost
-Teclis, like nearly all wizards, sucks at Close Combat
-He is very fragile and tends to die quite easily...

Judging from these facts, I would say that Teclis is well worth the high point cost, because he WILL dominate the Magic Phase and he will certainly make your opponents life harder. Just keep him from the harms way and he can potentially win you the game. If you field Teclis, press your advantage pitilessly and make every Magic Phase a living h*ll to your opponent.

I have planned a rather defensive strategy for the army. In my opinion, Spearelves, Sea Guard, Archers and Bolt Throwers are 'defensive' units while Sword Masters of Hoeth form the agressive part of the army (get them stuck to close combat with enemy as soon as possible). Play defensively, firing all missile fire to the most potent threats (well, this is fairly obvious...), using Teclis to rain magical doom upon enemy units and, if need arises, use Sword Masters to counter attack units that slip through your radar and threaten your defensive units. And when the time is right and you have weakened enemy enough, launch a powerful counter attack using all Sword Masters + Sea Guard and Spearelves.

OPINIONS AND COMMENTS, PLEASE...

Asurai
01-08-2011, 06:08
All in all it looks pretty solid. There are a few things that could be "optimized" but I think you could be happy with it exactly the way it is.

Magic wise, you should consider the Banner of Sorcery. It is great for those magic phases where you roll low on Winds.

You will be wanting to take the Lore of Life with Teclis, it is by the the most helpful lore for your combat based Elves. With that said, I don't really see a place in your army where you can protect Telcis. If he dies during the game, it is pretty much over for your elves. You need to be very careful with your dice as well. Failing a casting role, or dispel attempt can end up going very bad, when you only bring one Mage.

Your Battle Standard Bearer feels pretty bare. Generally the proper setup for a
Noble BSB is a
Great Weapon (All Princes/Nobles should get GWs imo),
Dragon Armor of Caledor
Guardian Phoenix.
A battle standard can be great tool for your infantry force, but yours is simply so exposed I would consider it free VPs against any fighting level Hero/Lord.

Another thing that concerns me is the Swordmasters. With the changes to close combat in 8th edition, they have become very fragile. They used to be protected by there large amount of attacks, killing the enemy before they could strike back. Now that the enemy can strike back no matter how many you kill, Swordmasters tend to get eaten up on the return side. You also pay 15 points per model, for 2 attacks per. However, in a unit of 12 you only get half the attacks from the second rank, making them much less cost effective than before. This doesn't mean they are bad, but you must be very careful with the small units of 12. Combing the two of units of 12 into a single unit may help them survive shooting/magical attention.

I never was a fan of bring only one type of special infantry. To be honest I never leave home without at least 20-25 Phoenix Guard, as they are simply amazing at staying alive and holding the line. White Lions also serve a purpose in the army as well. I always bring a set, with the 15 point flaming banner, to deal with Trolls or regenerating enemies.

Shooting wise, I never liked Archers. But that is just me, I face primarily face Orcs and Goblins, where more spears and sea guard are better equipped. They still work fine against light-armored targets (Fast-Cav is your #1 target with archers), and 30" shots are very nice.

I like the inclusion of bolt throwers. A lot of players seem to be pulling away from them, just remember to always Volley (unless you need the S6 and it has multi-wounds) the same target until you generate a panic test. Three however, may be a little overkill. I personally recommend two, and this leads to my last point.

The last consideration is your mobility. Your battle line is very static. You don't have much to deal with enemy War Machines, or to force Gun lines will be painful, and while you pack a significant amount of shooting, elves generally lose artillery battles. Other armies can simply be more cost effective than our 100 point bolt throwers, and S3 bows will ever be.

Remember how I said three bolt throwers was overkill? A team of Great Eagles can pose a threat to the enemy's machines. They will either draw fire and die, or force the enemy to hold a unit back to protect them. Either way, the attention has been pulled away from your Swordmasters for a turn. This also forces to the enemy to put his single, lone characters inside of a unit.

This is just what I have noticed from you list. Like I said before, it would probably work fine just the way you have it, I have just pointed out some things that could strengthen different areas of your list. Experiment and figure out what works best for you.

W.J.J.O.
02-08-2011, 21:23
Thanks for your comment.

Magic wise, you should consider the Banner of Sorcery. It is great for those magic phases where you roll low on Winds.

I have use for that banner often; it just couldn't fit to points value.

You will be wanting to take the Lore of Life with Teclis, it is by far the most helpful lore for your combat based Elves. With that said, I don't really see a place in your army where you can protect Teclis. If he dies during the game, it is pretty much over for your elves. You need to be very careful with your dice as well. Failing a casting roll, or dispel attempt can end up going very bad, when you only bring one Mage.

I agree. All Elves love Lore of Life. High Magic is also useful.
I've noticed that placing any wizard with the Archers creates powerful diversion. My opponent's do not really think that they are potent threat so they usually leave'em alone, even when there is a wizard within the unit. But I know that they will target the wizards at some point.

Your Battle Standard Bearer feels pretty bare.

Yes, he is low cost, yes, he has 'poor' equipment, but it works quite well. I think through point values; by keeping him 'bare' I can field more rank & file + other troops (= Sword Masters:rolleyes:). He is there to offer that re-roll to leadership tests and confer that +1 to the Fortitude of the army while playing Blood and Glory scenario.

Another thing that concerns me is the Swordmasters. With the changes to close combat in 8th edition, they have become very fragile. They used to be protected by their large amount of attacks, killing the enemy before they could strike back. Now that the enemy can strike back no matter how many you kill, Swordmasters tend to get eaten up on the return side. You also pay 15 points per model, for 2 attacks per. However, in a unit of 12 you only get half the attacks from the second rank, making them much less cost effective than before. This doesn't mean they are bad, but you must be very careful with the small units of 12. Combing the two of units of 12 into a single unit may help them survive shooting/magical attention.

I'm well aware about their low toughness and low durability and about the fact, that they can make only one supporting attack despite their attack values, but I include them, because I have seen them work miracles on battlefield, smashing through several enemy units. But I do understand what are you pointing at.

To be honest I never leave home without at least 20-25 Phoenix Guard, as they are simply amazing at staying alive and holding the line. White Lions also serve a purpose in the army as well. I always bring a set, with the 15 point flaming banner, to deal with Trolls or regenerating enemies.

Phoenix Guard do not work for me, they die almost too easily in my opinion. I use them often, but they always die despite that 4+ Ward save. It's like my enemy has (somehow) managed to bribe them to fail in their job and die...
I've not used White Lions ever, but that is only because i don't have models to represent them. But they're useful. I could try a horde of White Lions of Chrace... Imagine that:evilgrin:

Shooting wise, I never liked Archers. But that is just me, I face primarily face Orcs and Goblins, where more spears and sea guard are better equipped. They still work fine against light-armored targets (Fast-Cav is your #1 target with archers), and 30" shots are very nice.

HE Archers are actually a potent fighting force in the tabletop. In one game, a unit of 20 Archers killed about 10-15 Orc Big'Uns by shooting, and when they got charged by the that same unit of Orcs, my Archers took quite beating but still held the Orcs in check for to turns and killing 5-8 more of the horde of Big'Uns. AND when enemy put my Archers to flight, the unit survived and rallied in next turn (well okay, only the Hawkeye survived:p - but as a whole unit didn't die!).

I like the inclusion of bolt throwers. A lot of players seem to be pulling away from them, just remember to always Volley (unless you need the S6 and it has multi-wounds) the same target until you generate a panic test. Three however, may be a little overkill. I personally recommend two, and this leads to my last point.

The last consideration is your mobility. Your battle line is very static. You don't have much to deal with enemy War Machines, or to force Gun lines will be painful, and while you pack a significant amount of shooting, elves generally lose artillery battles. Other armies can simply be more cost effective than our 100 point bolt throwers, and S3 bows will ever be.

Remember how I said three bolt throwers was overkill? A team of Great Eagles can pose a threat to the enemy's machines. They will either draw fire and die, or force the enemy to hold a unit back to protect them. Either way, the attention has been pulled away from your Swordmasters for a turn. This also forces to the enemy to put his single, lone characters inside of a unit.


Bolt Throwers are fantastic. Three may be a overkill, but Eagle Claws have usually paid off their price and I am keeping all three in the list.
This army can also be used agressively but I usually go as the things unfold. Although the army consists only from infantry, it's still quite mobile.
I could take the BSB off the list and use those points to get two Great Eagles. High Elves have high Ld, so maybe they won't need BSB. But I still have'nt had a chance to test this army so I play a game with it once before I change anything on the list.

Again, thank you for your comment. I appreciate your opinions and think about them.

Pyriel
02-08-2011, 21:53
1. swordmasters: imho, two units of 14. keep casting flesh to stone. one of them flesh to stone, the other gets regrowth.

2. 27 phoenix guard with banner of sorcery. get the BSB inside them and push forward. teclis + banner=always 10-12 dice per magic phase= at least 5 dice for each of regrowth and flesh to stone. VERY hard for these spells to get dispelled, hence always helping swordmasters survive. much better protection for the BSB too. great unit.

3. core: always use ONE type of core unit. spam spearmen. or spam sea guard. or spam archers. never mix. random example: two blocks of 32 spearmen, one has teclis and stays in the back. just what you need for about 600 points.

4. your core units are very expensive. its easier and more convenient to get just 2 blocks of core units, large enough to survive, costing about the min core value, and then just spam your special choices. for competitive play at least, for friendly i'll totaly try a core-unit swarm at some point.

also of note: i like your BSB. cheap and survivable enough. if challenged, just refuse. and, of course, no reason to explain why you include teclis. the only reason not to include teclis is if it is a friendly non-competitive game and you want to field some fluffy character, OR if he is banned from a tournament (very, VERY common, he is *that* powerful)

edit: ideas on mobility:
1. dragon princes. silver helms could work too in theory, but imho dps are better.
2. great eagles. i dont like them, but they're a cheap choice.
3. dragon mage. combos well with teclis' irresistible flesh to stone. think the mage is fragile?... think again :P

W.J.J.O.
02-08-2011, 22:27
Thanks for advice, Pyriel, I will give them some thought.

Yeah, a Dragon Mage + Flesh to Stone = GREEAAT... an unstoppable combo!!:evilgrin: Although it isn't. Reason? Cannons. If my opponent has Cannons, Dragon Mage will attract all Cannon fire my opponent can muster. But that what he is for: to attack those war machines.

And no, Teclis isn't banned in the local game club here in Oulu. Players here in Finland usually don't whine about him being 'unfair model' to use.