PDA

View Full Version : Can a wizard cast the same spell twice if he knows it and has it in an item?



Es Mors
01-08-2011, 20:14
For example, a beastmen great bray-shaman who knows viletide and has the staff of darkoth. Can he both cast viletide and use the item in the same magic phase?

Akkristor
01-08-2011, 21:01
I would assume so, since the Wizard isn't actually casting the spell twice, he's casting it once (where he gets to add his wizard level and all that), and using a bound power once (where he doesn't get any of his wizardly bonuses)

badjester
02-08-2011, 05:36
I am pretty sure he can for 2 reasons:

1- As far as I understand the question and the rules, the shaman is casting a spell AND using a item before/after which, fortunately for him, happens to have the same effect.. Nothing more (lucky shaman :P)

2- As another example are the tomb king liches.. They have a strict magic phase (ie spells, bound items, casket etc..) and the same lich can use his spell AND a bound item doing the same thing on a different unit... sorry I dont have the new army book (or the rulebook) close by to garantee what I am saying, but that is the way the old one was written and I am pretty sure it did not change..

I would summarize it that way.. Yes your shaman can use his spell AND still use the item in the same magic pahse... BUT cannot target the same unit twice ( as far as I can remember with the rulebook out of my reach)

My two cents anyway

Es Mors
02-08-2011, 13:25
Thank you for your replies. I can't find anywhere in the rulebook where it states that the same spell can't target the same unit twice in a phase.

Actualy, after having read through all the rules and your replies one more time, I came to this conclusion:

- There are no rules saying that a wizard can't cast the same spell twice.
- There are only rules saying that a wizard can attempt each spell he knows once and
- there are rules that a wizard can only know each spell once, but these have exceptions.
- Therefore, if a wizard legaly knows a spell twice, he can cast it twice.
- Also, this isn't even the wizard knowing the spell twice, he is just using a magic item.

Does that sound right?

hobbs3023
02-08-2011, 13:49
Using a bound spell and casting it are completely different. Yes... Viletide from magic and then whatever spell is in a bound item.

snottlebocket
02-08-2011, 13:51
Thank you for your replies. I can't find anywhere in the rulebook where it states that the same spell can't target the same unit twice in a phase.

Actualy, after having read through all the rules and your replies one more time, I came to this conclusion:

- There are no rules saying that a wizard can't cast the same spell twice.
- There are only rules saying that a wizard can attempt each spell he knows once and
- there are rules that a wizard can only know each spell once, but these have exceptions.
- Therefore, if a wizard legaly knows a spell twice, he can cast it twice.
- Also, this isn't even the wizard knowing the spell twice, he is just using a magic item.

Does that sound right?

You're missing the fact that the notion of knowing a spell twice is completely ridiculous.

In any other situation claiming that you know a single piece of knowledge twice would be reason for people to declare you insane. But because this is a game and people are desperate to win they're suddenly willing to overlook that and argue that since it has two sources it's apparently ok!

Hearing the exact same thing from two sources doesn't mean you know it twice, it just means you heard it twice and know it once. (although I wouldn't be surprised if GW, when pressed to the question, would succumb and allow you to cast twice just because clarity as written beats common sense with these sorts of must win fanatics)

Mercules
02-08-2011, 14:06
You're missing the fact that the notion of knowing a spell twice is completely ridiculous.


You are missing the fact that a Bound Item doesn't mean you know a spell. It means the item can cast the spell. This is why IF doesn't hit the person using the item, but instead breaks the item. An Empire General isn't suddenly a member of the Bright College because he was given a Ruby Ring as an heirloom. What it means is that his ring throws fireballs. Now if it was a Bright Wizard who had the ring the ring still functions exactly the same for him and he can cast his fireball spell AND activate the ring.

snottlebocket
02-08-2011, 15:06
You are missing the fact that a Bound Item doesn't mean you know a spell. It means the item can cast the spell. This is why IF doesn't hit the person using the item, but instead breaks the item. An Empire General isn't suddenly a member of the Bright College because he was given a Ruby Ring as an heirloom. What it means is that his ring throws fireballs. Now if it was a Bright Wizard who had the ring the ring still functions exactly the same for him and he can cast his fireball spell AND activate the ring.

Ah, I didn't catch on that we were talking about bound items. I thought people were trying to load their wizard up with identical spells again using items.

Es Mors
02-08-2011, 15:07
You're missing the fact that the notion of knowing a spell twice is completely ridiculous.

In any other situation claiming that you know a single piece of knowledge twice would be reason for people to declare you insane. But because this is a game and people are desperate to win they're suddenly willing to overlook that and argue that since it has two sources it's apparently ok!

Hearing the exact same thing from two sources doesn't mean you know it twice, it just means you heard it twice and know it once. (although I wouldn't be surprised if GW, when pressed to the question, would succumb and allow you to cast twice just because clarity as written beats common sense with these sorts of must win fanatics)

Well, now you are just arguing about the specific word I used. Replace "knows spell" with "has the spell in one of his spell slots" and everything will be alright.

popisdead
03-08-2011, 21:15
Probably?

If a Bray Shaman has the bound Viletide he can still have it from the lore of the Wild thus casting it twice.

I am not aware of all the other bound items though.

Dragonreaver
06-08-2011, 02:13
A related question that doesn't really warrant a new thread since this one has been answered and is veering in this direction:

Can a Skaven wizard (Grey Seer, I think was the culprit) take The Dreaded 13th spell twice? I was watching a game the other day where the Skaven player claimed it was legal at the moment but likely to be FAQd soon (to be fair, this kind of rules bending is perfectly fluffy for a Skaven player IMO _). But I thought the BRB stated that no wizard can ever take the same spell twice?

hamsterwheel
06-08-2011, 02:52
A related question that doesn't really warrant a new thread since this one has been answered and is veering in this direction:

Can a Skaven wizard (Grey Seer, I think was the culprit) take The Dreaded 13th spell twice? I was watching a game the other day where the Skaven player claimed it was legal at the moment but likely to be FAQd soon (to be fair, this kind of rules bending is perfectly fluffy for a Skaven player IMO _). But I thought the BRB stated that no wizard can ever take the same spell twice?

It's not possible for a Grey Seer to get the spell twice. The dreaded 13th cannot be rolled and can only be selected by dropping another spell. They have the choice of dropping one spell for Skitterleap or Dreaded 13th and not both. However, if you played a game with enough points to allow two Grey Seers, then they both can have the Dreaded 13th.

decker_cky
06-08-2011, 06:45
It's not possible for a Grey Seer to get the spell twice. The dreaded 13th cannot be rolled and can only be selected by dropping another spell. They have the choice of dropping one spell for Skitterleap or Dreaded 13th and not both. However, if you played a game with enough points to allow two Grey Seers, then they both can have the Dreaded 13th.

1920 pts? :P

Grimgormx
15-08-2011, 01:09
An Army cant have the same spell twice, only spell that can be known by multiple mages of the same lore, is the signature spell

So in an O&G army if you have a goblin great shaman riding a aracknarok with the shrine that grants loremaster, then all other goblin shaman can only know the little wagh signature spell (or if the great shaman changes 1 spell for the signature, 1 gobo sham can know that spell and the the signature spell) so dont waste to many point in shamies

I dont know if the 13th is a signature spell, if it is then it can be taken by any ratmen spell caster than can handle it.

Tregar
15-08-2011, 01:20
That's not right at all. Basically, as long as a spell you have wasn't "rolled", you can duplicate it, just like with Signature spells. So if you are crazah enough to take a Gobbo Great shaman on Arachnarok with Spidershrine, he gets all 7 LW spells, and other gobbo shamans roll their spells normally- pretty much ignoring the Arachnarok's spells completely!

Mr_Rose
15-08-2011, 08:48
Yeah, Grimgormx, none of what you wrote is correct. First, there is no rule that says an army cannot have multiples of the same spell ever; you are simply not allowed to randomly generate the same spell twice, which is not the same at all. Second, the Loremaster rule makes you effectively skip spell selection entirely for that wizard so they are not counted for duplication at all.

Grimgormx
15-08-2011, 15:12
Wow, thats great, and you are right, if you dont roll you can have duplicated spells, thats great, because with the spider I used 3 ng lvl 1 to chanel, but a friend told me about that rule and I thought I wasnt going to be able to use more shamies, thks guys, I never saw the rule from that side, Im glad I was wrong!!!

Grimgormx
15-08-2011, 15:13
also, loremaster know all 6 spells plus signature?

xxRavenxx
15-08-2011, 15:24
That's not right at all. Basically, as long as a spell you have wasn't "rolled", you can duplicate it, just like with Signature spells. So if you are crazah enough to take a Gobbo Great shaman on Arachnarok with Spidershrine, he gets all 7 LW spells, and other gobbo shamans roll their spells normally- pretty much ignoring the Arachnarok's spells completely!

Arachnarok is a bad example, as it only grants the loremaster while you're on it. I think the goblin would need to roll for his spells before the game, as he'll need to know which spells he knows if his spider ends up dead...

Grimgormx
15-08-2011, 23:51
Why should he lose his loremaster, When you buy the aracnarock mount with the shrine, you are buying a mount and an upgrade for the shaman.

Sudenly the spider dies and he forgets some spells?

Tregar
16-08-2011, 12:30
Given the ridiculous price of the Spidershrine, I'm happy to just let the Great Shaman keep the spells after the spider's death :D

xxRavenxx
17-08-2011, 12:23
Why should he lose his loremaster, When you buy the aracnarock mount with the shrine, you are buying a mount and an upgrade for the shaman.

Sudenly the spider dies and he forgets some spells?

It specificly says he has the rule while mounted. So when he's dismounted. It should vanish.

Grimgormx
17-08-2011, 16:06
Yes you are right, I read that yesterday, so maybe when hw loses the spider then he should roll to see what spells does he keep.