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WoodElfGeneral
02-08-2011, 03:03
This question is both very broad and very specific. I need to know how to beat my local orc player with my woodies. The problem is that this is for my local campaign, so there are restrictions.

First, my general is set as a level 4 life spellweaver.
I only have 1800 points, he has a little over 2300 available.
He is the best player at my club.
There are unit restrictions for all armies. I am limited to either one unit of wardancers or waywatchers, can only have three monster units which includes treeman, treekin, and eagles(2 eagles=1 monster choice), up to 4 units of calvary, no more lords, and two heroes, but one must be a spellsinger and the other a noble.
I have never played against orcs
He runs a horde of savage orcs, a units of black orcs with flame banner. Lv. 4 shaman as general, 5 bolt throwers, usually an arachnarok(idk if thats soelled correctly), mangler squigs, and some other points in orcs.
Finally, we will be playing an unknown made up scenario, usually involving penalties to thing like shooting or charge distance, or a magic artifact like an anvil of vaul.


I realize due to the lack of details available and huge points gap that this will be near impossible, but i have to try. So let me know how you guys would go about getting a win. I appreciate any help or advice.

Thanks again.
-WoodElfGeneral

BBWags
02-08-2011, 04:38
Wow, those are some rough restrictions and that point gap is murderous. I'd say your only hope is to get into a situation where you can take on one section of his army at a time. A denied flank, perhaps, leaving a couple of his combat blocks away from the action, maybe? I'm not the best general here, so others can fill in the specifics...

... But it is set ups like that which make me not shamed at all to try to pull off Dwellers each turn... You're screwed anyway unless you get something big off...

Oh, 6 treekin or more if points allow, a treeman and 2 eagles would bs how I'd choose monsters...

Feefait
02-08-2011, 05:09
Why are you playing this, again? You have an old, outdated army against a freshly minted 8th edition force, and you get restrictions? Not fair...


anyway, tactics... You have to make him move. Use the terrain to block his fanatics, manglers, chariots etc. You can shoot them down easy enough, but I'd try to lead them around. Use scouts to get his fanatics drawn behind his own line, or hunt manglers as well. Treeman should be able to take the a-rock. Maybe. The key, again is winning the movement phase. The more he has to move the grater the chance of failing animosity. I wouldn't worry too much about the bolt throwers as you shouldn't have too many big units ot make it worthwhile. Eagles can take them out easy enough.

Lord_Byron
02-08-2011, 19:45
The level 4 mage general is good. A secondary mage is good too. Take 2 treemen. Deploy hiding behind a woods, preferably 2 woods with 12 to 24 inches of trap (I mean open ground) between them. Wardancers and waywatchers are too expensive to be risking against a 500 point deficit. Bring lots of glade guard instead.

Treesing the woods in front of his savages and black orcs. Shoot everything else. A lot. If the orcs go through the forests to get you, all of your damage spells and strangle root attacks will be amplified enough to make him regret it. If he tries to go around the woods treesing them back into his face. If his big blocks make it past your walking woods barrier dance around them with treemen stranglerooting them and avoiding combat if you can.

Only use the treemen in combat to hold up the big blocks if you absolutely have to or if you are comfortably ahead on points from shooting down his support units. Avoid the black orcs with flaming banner like the plague with your treemen/kin. Block them dryad or glade guard speed bumps if you have to.

Hiding in woods is the perfect defense against fanatics if he brings them.

Malorian
02-08-2011, 21:19
Don't fight his fight.

You are only allowed to take 4 cav units, so take 4 units of glade riders. The whole army should be based on mobility and avoiding combat.

Shoot down the easy things first like the mangler squig and then get pas his lines and wipe out his war machines.

The arachnarok will be a pain, but if you are careful it won't be too bad, and hopefully you can squeek out a win.

Aluinn
02-08-2011, 22:20
I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly: Do you *have* to take two Heroes, or are you limited to *only* those two Heroes *if* you decide to use any? Can you take a Lord at all? If not, I'm afraid you may just be boned, because I think you will be needing a Level 4 to make it through this one. The other disadvantages are bad enough, but if you're at his mercy in the magic phase, too, I can't see a way to pull it out.

However, assuming you can have a Level 4, you could do this:

Take a unit of 12 Treekin (6x2), Glade Riders for Core, and a mounted Level 4 with Life, and buff the Treekin to the nines and heal them up with magic. Savage Orc hordes can survive that for a little while (3 rounds, probably), because of their Ward save, but Black Orcs will go down pretty fast when you're averaging 24 S5 hits including Stomps and have T7 or more (plus armor, plus a Ward save). Moreover, Savages will have a bear of a time wounding Treekin, especially if they're not Big 'Uns, and that doesn't even matter of you can get off Flesh to Stone. The only problem is that the flaming banner could ruin you, depending on how many Black Orcs are in that unit, and there's a high chance he can get both units into your Treekin deathstar.

They should beat the Arachnarok, but you'll definitely want to delay that combat as long as possible. Neither unit can stomp the other and you'll just win by virtue of tons more attacks, Ward saves, and your magical support in the long run, I believe, but you can't afford to get into that before dealing with at least one of the infantry blocks, and preferably both. If you do get into a multi-combat featuring the spider, just focus everything you can on the infantry and hope to break them.

You will have to have some means of dealing with the bolt throwers, but Glade Riders shouldn't have much trouble in that department.

Alternatively, Lore of Beasts gives you the potential to kill the spider with a couple powered-up Amber Spears (S10 hit, D6 wounds, i.e. magical cannon), and Wildform is also quite a good buff for Treekin or anything else, really. The problem here is that you may have the need to heal your units due to the points deficit, unless you follow Malorian's plan and just refuse to engage in combat with his big blocks. That's also a solid approach.

And then there's the matter of finding 12 Treekin models, unless you are allowed proxies :). Also, that will be close to half your points, so it's pretty much going to be them, Core, and a wizard--again assuming you can get away with not taking both Heroes and taking a Level 4 general.

So anyway the army list would look something like:

-Level 4, Elven steed, Lore of Life, Wand of Wych Elm (will allow you to shut down his magic for the most part if Winds are in your favor), other stuff if you feel the need, probably a Ward save first of all

-BSB on steed

-450 points of some combination of Glade Guard, Skirmishing Glade Guard, or Glade Riders--I'd recommend Riders since they can go after the war machines and avoid other combats, as Malorian said, as well as providing a "bunker" for your wizard.

-12 Treekin

This should leave you ~100 points for either more Core, more characters/items, or like some Great Eagles (also good for going after that mob of bolt throwers, though also potentially vulnerable to them).

Then you just try to maneuver it so that your Treekin can fight one thing at a time, and if that happens, they should win combats and break units pretty quick. They kill ~16 Black Orcs per turn for example, 12 of them before they can strike. You will need to heal and/or buff them consistently, though, as they're horrendously outnumbered, and beware the flaming banner.

WoodElfGeneral
03-08-2011, 04:09
I must take a lv.4 life wizard.
I can take one noble
i can take one spellsinger

Skarsgard
03-08-2011, 05:49
Bascially you are #$%ed!

Apart from getting Dwellers off with IF every turn there is no real way for you to win such a bad mis-match!

You will need a lot of luck.

Aluinn
03-08-2011, 10:10
I must take a lv.4 life wizard.
I can take one noble
i can take one spellsinger

Ah, well, in that case I think you may have a chance :). I would recommend skipping the Hero caster; Athel Loren is just not a great Lore. Treesinging is quite useful and all, but if you're using a Level 4 with Life, you're probably not going to want to be spending the dice on it, as Life spells just tend to have far more impact on the game.

So I'd say go Level 4, Life, and a BSB with minimal gear (save Wand of Wych Elm on the Lord), put them on horsies, and avoid combat.

Da GoBBo
03-08-2011, 15:48
Whatever you'r army composition, you should get rid of that general as soon as possible to get the most out of your own magic phase. Either poke the general or trample his unit alltogether. The last one is your safest bet and pretty doable if you decide to go with that huge treekin unit; Savage orcs are good, but not that good and you should be able to smite down a rank each turn and be able to run down units of under 40 orcs in two rounds of combat. Whether you charge or not, you should be able to pull of those two turns of private time ... at the sacrifice of some dear core units of course, so be sure to take down those single support units as soon as possible.

You will still have a hard battle ahead ones this is over, but you will have a much easier time to heal back that unit.

BTW. take those 2 (4?) great eagles. They are the cheapest redirectors you have and you will need those.

The bearded one
03-08-2011, 15:57
- Take wood elf model in hand.
- Bring hand and model swiftly into contact with face of orc player.

That is how you beat an orc player with wood elves :p

But seriously, why do you get 500 points less than him? This matchup seems unfair in pretty much every way. What you could attempt in order to break those blocks is to force them into woods with treesinging and then, hopefully, win 1 round of combat. Ranked units cannot be steadfast in forests, so that horde of savage orcs should break. I think 1 treeman should be able to win 1 round with his attacks and thunderstomp. A horde of treekin I deem necessary as well, but they should never be hit by those black orcs because the flaming attacking well let them.. well.. go up in flames. Are they savage orc big 'uns? If they're not you can cast dwellers below at them with more succes.

WoodElfGeneral
03-08-2011, 16:25
they're big 'uns

The reason for the mismatch is that he is doing better in our campaign and has more territories and therefore more points available. I figure i should try and fight him now before he gets much larger. I will have to play him eventually.

Malorian
03-08-2011, 17:50
Aren't there other players you can ally with to beat him overall?

drear
03-08-2011, 18:44
can i ask the reasoning for the points gap? is it a defenders/attackers scenario like the main brb?
or is the campaign cumalative? so the more wins the more points to spend?

id consider talking to the organiser about the restrictions as they do seem to be gimping you abit o.o

as stated, get the big units into woods, and treesing them into breaking.

try and snipe out the general in some way, or hinder his unit.

what if you took a 10 story watchtower and alot of archers? :D

BigbyWolf
03-08-2011, 19:17
they're big 'uns

The reason for the mismatch is that he is doing better in our campaign and has more territories and therefore more points available. I figure i should try and fight him now before he gets much larger. I will have to play him eventually.

I've played in similar campaigns. If you run the risk of getting hammered by this guy and have your armies future development in the campaign affected by this, I'd suggest holding off fighting him. Pick a few easier matches to try and get your points up, while hoping that some other players can knock him down a little.

If you absolutely do have to play him now, play avoidance and try for the draw.

WoodElfGeneral
04-08-2011, 02:46
Aren't there other players you can ally with to beat him overall?

There aren't any alliances allowed. It is a cumulative non-map based campaign.

My reasoning was to try and fight him now before his army got really big, cause i don't win much and he almost always does. I will have to play him eventually.

BBWags
04-08-2011, 04:38
I know this may not be real helpful, but I think you are more or less boned by the very set up of the campaign... Cumulative campaigns aren't that great, especially if alliances aren't allowed. Once someone gets so many points ahead, what's the point of playing any more? Call him the winner and start again :-)

Anyway, this still may not help much, but I'll try again: shoot him a lot and run away :-) as others have mentioned, try to maybe kill *something* and then just stay away from him as best you can.

friendsofrhomb
04-08-2011, 06:22
I'd be using those eagles of yours to get rid of his spear chukkas, although they rarely hit, if they do, they will take chunks out of your treekin/men. Use your fast cav to bait the savage orcs into a position where you can charge them with the treekin.

It's a little off topic, but I have never run or participated in a campaign, does anyone know where I can find a decent website with rules and scenarios so I might be able to run one?

Noght
04-08-2011, 12:22
I used this tactic recently, and it was mentioned previously.
Set your Treekin/Treeman behind your Free Woods and wait. Make him come through the woods, lose ranks and ultimately lose the battle. A Horde of Orcs without Ranks will lose on Wounds to Treekin. I defeated a Horde (10x4) of Nurgle Demons with Hero on Panaquin with 6 using this tactic (and he had the Re-roll missed Wound Banner and Regen). I won the first round of combat by 2-3 wounds. Regrew the 5 wounds and cast boosted Shield of Thorns (Str4) and won the second combat by like 8 wounds.

Deploy on a Refused Flank and shoot the little stuff. Redirect the big stuff except his Hordes, you want them right in the Woods.

Do you at least have the option of setting the Battlefield to your benefit?
Noght

Malorian
04-08-2011, 15:17
There aren't any alliances allowed. It is a cumulative non-map based campaign.

My reasoning was to try and fight him now before his army got really big, cause i don't win much and he almost always does. I will have to play him eventually.

I see... so really this can be seen as a case of trying to score a minor loss rather than a massacre loss :(


Well I still think you stand a shot if you use the avoidance game, but best of luck to you.

Mirbeau
04-08-2011, 15:46
I'd love to fight this battle! There's a lot of good advice above. I've been giving opponents a couple of points extra in games of late, so I can can give you some general advice in terms of handicap matches, sorry if I state the obvious. However, a lot of the game depends on how he deploys, which I won't be able to comment on.

Sacrificial units will be important - so a general M.S.U approach would be a good idea. Deploy the suiciders in the center as your first few units down, in the hope he'll do the same with his, before heavily refusing a flank. Feed the sacrificial units to things which cannot be avoided/shot. Shoot his fast stuff then ranged stuff. Then, is all about maneuvering successfully - getting to the flanks and behind his forces - giving him some bait before bringing overwhelming force against a small amount of his army at a time. This could be possible since a lot of his force is horded up. Somehow seperate the units from one another - and assault one at a time from all possible directions. Good luck, and enjoy, almost any result here is a moral victory (at least) and this game can be won, so enjoy giving the orcs as bloody a nose as possible!