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AggressiveNeutrality
02-08-2011, 14:51
Ok, so I was reading through my Dark Eldar codex last night and something caught my eye. The Dark Eldar hold Khaine in high regard, which brings me to my question. Would it be feasible that the Dark Eldar could summon an Avatar of Khaine? Also, what do you all think would be a suitable subsitute for the space pirate ships as a transport for the Dark Eldar. I was thinking using wave serpents, but adding Dark Eldar motifs and bits to it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Lord Commissar Aquila
02-08-2011, 15:00
It would be impossible for them to summon an avatar unless they have control over a craftworld, as the thing that turns into an avatar is located only on craftworlds. As for transports, they've allready got the Venom and the Raider. A Wave Serpent might look very out of place with DE, not to mention that I'm not sure that the DE would even have acess to Wave Serpents on a regular basis.

eldargal
02-08-2011, 15:01
Not really. The Avatar is awakened through the psychic emanations of the Craftworld building up in his chamber and then finally with a blood sacrifice. While Dark Eldar are allfor blood sacrifice, they deliberately atrophy their psychic abilities to avoid attracting Slaanesh. So no real way to set in motion the awakening of an Avatar.

Carlosophy
02-08-2011, 15:04
The Avatar is summoned as the psychic energy from the Eldar preparing for war builds up to a cacophony through the wraithbone and infinity circuit. As the Dark Eldar have no psychic side and no Craftworlds unfortunately no.
Khaine values martial prowess and honour which is what the aspect warriors represent. The Dark Eldar are a bunch of cowardly backstabbers who Khaine wouldn't give time of day.

AggressiveNeutrality
02-08-2011, 15:06
Ok thanks!

Lord Commissar Aquila
02-08-2011, 15:07
Not really. The Avatar is awakened through the psychic emanations of the Craftworld building up in his chamber and then finally with a blood sacrifice. While Dark Eldar are allfor blood sacrifice, they deliberately atrophy their psychic abilities to avoid attracting Slaanesh. So no real way to set in motion the awakening of an Avatar.

Not to mention that psyker Dark Eldar are treated as "playthings".

Vandelan
02-08-2011, 15:36
The Avatar is summoned as the psychic energy from the Eldar preparing for war builds up to a cacophony through the wraithbone and infinity circuit. As the Dark Eldar have no psychic side and no Craftworlds unfortunately no.
Khaine values martial prowess and honour which is what the aspect warriors represent. The Dark Eldar are a bunch of cowardly backstabbers who Khaine wouldn't give time of day.

Unless it was Khaine from Warhammer Fantasy...

Simo429
02-08-2011, 15:41
Not to mention that psyker Dark Eldar are treated as "playthings".

I thought that all Dark Eldar were psykers they just suppressed that part of themselves.

N3p3nth3
02-08-2011, 16:45
I thought that all Dark Eldar were psykers they just suppressed that part of themselves.

No, the "suppression" has been a lot more crude and violent than that...

Misfratz
02-08-2011, 20:00
Also, what do you all think would be a suitable subsitute for the space pirate ships as a transport for the Dark Eldar. I was thinking using wave serpents, but adding Dark Eldar motifs and bits to it.Bearing in mind the raiding, piratical nature of the Dark Eldar, some looted wave serpents would be perfectly in character, though they might see their enclosed nature as being a bit limiting.

Shamana
02-08-2011, 20:27
I'd say Khaine was quite the ******* and wouldn't really mind the bloodthirsty ways of the Dark eldar all that much, but their weakened psychic potential would be a problem, as would their unwillingness to be a "proper" sacrifice. Let's make it clear - there's a whole lot more to the Young King than just a life lost. Sure, everyone can daub some blood on an altar, but a proper sacrifice has to be, well, a sacrifice - something valuable and useful that you willingly give up. A Dracon, syren or a Klaivex, victor in many wars and shown capable of great things, fiercely devoted to the Bloody-Handed God and willing to live a day as part of him rather than wriggle of his belly for a millenia, hiding and whining in fear of She-who-thirsts like the rest of the Commorite Eldar - now that is a sacrifice worthy of Khaine's attention!

Wishing
03-08-2011, 00:04
If you wanted an avatar fighting with the dark eldar, which is kind of a cool idea, you would have to make up your own fluff reason as to why and how. The official fluff makes him craftworld only, but the beautiful thing about fluff is that it normally only describes how things are normally, it doesn't state that this is the only way things can ever be. Being a deity, I'm sure Khaine could manage to manifest himself amid some dark eldar somehow if he really wanted to.

a1elbow
03-08-2011, 01:14
What are you aiming for with these ideas? You want to use Avatars and Serpents...so what is it you like about each army? You might just consider playing both.

If you didn't mind them being a lot of different in terms of rules, you could add DE stuff to an Avatar and play it as a Talos.

Baaltor
03-08-2011, 02:47
...While Dark Eldar are allfor blood sacrifice, they deliberately atrophy their psychic abilities...

Source? I've never heard anything about atrophy from the fluff, only players claiming it is so.

It seems to me that they could likely awaken an avatar, they may not have psychic powers, but they've got a large presence in the warp, and they're psychic vampires, that means they're still largely warp based to me.



If you didn't mind them being a lot of different in terms of rules, you could add DE stuff to an Avatar and play it as a Talos.

I like that idea! It makes me wonder if there are any Haemonculi who've reconstructed an avatar-like monster, or maybe even one who had some knowledge of how avatars were originally made replicating the process in (the most perverted way of course...).

AggressiveNeutrality
03-08-2011, 04:39
Well, like I said earlier, I was reading the DE codex last night and a few things stood out to me. Like how the Dark Eldar came to help the Lyanden Craftworld with the Nids. It gave me focus to create a corsair-esque Lyanden color scheme, maybe one of their fleets accompanied the Dark Eldar around at the behest of the Harlequins. Maybe to fight off some threat that was being threatened besides the webway and the crone worlds that hold significance to both factions of Eldar.

AggressiveNeutrality
03-08-2011, 04:42
If you wanted an avatar fighting with the dark eldar, which is kind of a cool idea, you would have to make up your own fluff reason as to why and how. The official fluff makes him craftworld only, but the beautiful thing about fluff is that it normally only describes how things are normally, it doesn't state that this is the only way things can ever be. Being a deity, I'm sure Khaine could manage to manifest himself amid some dark eldar somehow if he really wanted to.

In response to this reply. I was thinking instead of the orange flames and molten skin underneath the armor, I'd make it green fire, just giving the avatar a "corrupted" appearance.

eldargal
03-08-2011, 06:38
All Eldar are inherently psychic, it was a feature of the Empire Eldar, it is a feature of Craftworld Eldar, it is a feature of Corsairs, it is a feature of Exodites. The only non-psychic Eldar are the Dark Eldar, because it attracts Slaanesh as explicitly stated in the codex. The natural assumption is that they let their abilities atrophy, the baron is said to crudely manipulate Eldar seer stones which implies the natural ability is still there, just atrophied from lack of use. There is also the reformed Incubus in Path of the Warrior who is seen interacting with his Aspect armour psyhically like the rest of the Scorpions do, again implying the Dark Eldar are psychic but let the ability atrohy.
It is doubtful they evolved to be non-psychic in ten thousand years, that is onl ten generations orso by regular Eldar standards and Dark Eldar are nearly immortal, plus Xenology (I think?) said Eldar hadn't shown signs of evolution in sixty million years, going by a skeleton some Imperials were studying.

So while it isn't explicitly stated (that I recall) that their abilitie have atrophied, that is what all the evidence points to.

It is the psychic emanations building up in the infinity circuit and flowing into the Avatars chamber which starts the process. The Dark Eldar do not have those emanations, they do not have an infinity circuit and they don't have an avatar chamber. So no, based on what we know under no circumstances could Dark Eldar summon an avatar. .


Source? I've never heard anything about atrophy from the fluff, only players claiming it is so.

It seems to me that they could likely awaken an avatar, they may not have psychic powers, but they've got a large presence in the warp, and they're psychic vampires, that means they're still largely warp based to me.



I like that idea! It makes me wonder if there are any Haemonculi who've reconstructed an avatar-like monster, or maybe even one who had some knowledge of how avatars were originally made replicating the process in (the most perverted way of course...).

Shamana
03-08-2011, 08:26
In response to this reply. I was thinking instead of the orange flames and molten skin underneath the armor, I'd make it green fire, just giving the avatar a "corrupted" appearance.

Why corrupt it? Khaine's the god of murder and bloodshed, it can hang out with the DE kids just fine imo :p .

Baaltor
03-08-2011, 08:47
All Eldar are inherently psychic, it was a feature of the Empire Eldar, it is a feature of Craftworld Eldar, it is a feature of Corsairs, it is a feature of Exodites. The only non-psychic Eldar are the Dark Eldar, because it attracts Slaanesh as explicitly stated in the codex. The natural assumption is that they let their abilities atrophy, the baron is said to crudely manipulate Eldar seer stones which implies the natural ability is still there, just atrophied from lack of use. There is also the reformed Incubus in Path of the Warrior who is seen interacting with his Aspect armour psyhically like the rest of the Scorpions do, again implying the Dark Eldar are psychic but let the ability atrohy.
It is doubtful they evolved to be non-psychic in ten thousand years, that is onl ten generations orso by regular Eldar standards and Dark Eldar are nearly immortal, plus Xenology (I think?) said Eldar hadn't shown signs of evolution in sixty million years, going by a skeleton some Imperials were studying.

So while it isn't explicitly stated (that I recall) that their abilitie have atrophied, that is what all the evidence points to.



Ah, I thought you meant atrophy as when an organ shrivels and becomes unusable, not atrophied as in muscles being weak from disuse. I have a feeling the baron's weakness also comes from a lack of having his skills nurtured too.



It is the psychic emanations building up in the infinity circuit and flowing into the Avatars chamber which starts the process. The Dark Eldar do not have those emanations, they do not have an infinity circuit and they don't have an avatar chamber. So no, based on what we know under no circumstances could Dark Eldar summon an avatar. .

Frankly I find it hard to believe that such an explanation holds water when the the words "Lol it's magic I don't have to explain Shin" can be used aptly. ;P

Who's to say a parallel system cannot be created? Even inadvertently, I mean: psychic emanations? Aren't those what make the chaos gods? The chaos gods don't need an infinity circuit to work, only faith and a vessel.

But I don't know eldar stuff too too well though. In fact: I thought the psychic emanation stuff was a metaphor until this thread.

Ezuli
03-08-2011, 10:21
Just another tought with the awakening of Avatar. In the latest Eldar codex it says "As the craftworld prepares for war the physically receptive chamber pulses with the battle-lust of the Eldar. In response, the Avatar begins to glow as the heat of his fiery blood is kindled." So, when thinking about this, it is indeed the feelings of Eldar, what awakens the Avatar. I dont know much abou DE, but I guess that they feel the same battle-lust as their "good" cousins. But the CWE suppress their feelings, travel along the paths, and so on. So, would it be possible, that when CWE are preparing for war, their battle-lust and feelings are even stronger than DE because they normally suppress their feelings?

So to tie it down, even if the DE could manage to build chamber, steal avatar from craftworld (or even conquer one?), I guess they still wouldn't be able to bring avatar to life because their feelings are perhaps not battle-lust and hate in its purest form (as the aspect warriors and eldar in general feel in war).

What do you think?

Wishing
03-08-2011, 11:33
Even though their lack of psykers helps distinguish the dark eldar from their less purple brethren, the concept also leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. The reason being that all the new armies that got their first codex in 3rd edition were created during GW's "we hate psykers!" phase, and this makes me feel that the decision to make all these armies without psykers of any kind was not to do with whether it was appropriate for the race or not, but was solely to do with a design philosophy that wanted all new armies to have no psykers, which I don't appreciate - I like psykers.

Stilton
03-08-2011, 12:53
It is the psychic emanations building up in the infinity circuit and flowing into the Avatars chamber which starts the process. The Dark Eldar do not have those emanations, they do not have an infinity circuit and they don't have an avatar chamber. So no, based on what we know under no circumstances could Dark Eldar summon an avatar. .

In Phil Kelly's mainstream 'rockstar'-vision of Dark Eldar, the Avatar does not fit in, no.

However, anyone's free to take their army's fluff in whatever direction they please, and considering how the Dark Eldar have, historically, summoned and controlled daemons (however unsuccesful these instances've been, largely speaking), as well as the arcane technology associated mainly with the Haemonculi, it doesn't strike me as all that unbelievable that a Craftworld (them, their Avatars and all the relevant gubbins meet grisly ends all the time anyway) falling into the hands of some particular sect of the Dark Eldar could potentially give rise to a reverse-engineered Avatar-summoning fuelled and tainted by unholy and arcane means, not that Vect would necessarily approve.

So yeah, OP, go for it. :)

eldargal
03-08-2011, 14:36
Well, yes, anyone can make their army how they wish if they have an amenable games club. But if you are going to fly in the face ofestablished fluff (nothing wrong with that) then you don't need to go asking if it is appropriate.