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Pawn of Decay
03-08-2011, 00:00
Hi all. This is my first attempt at a Dark Elf army list. The idea is to built, convert, paint and tweak this army over the process of a year. A few friends are starting with armies of their own at the same time so we are doing this as an almost tale of four gamers style exercise.

The end process of this is to attend Throne of Skulls next year.

All comments and criticism are more than welcome. Any advice or help that you can offer me are greatly appreciated.


-=[Lord]=-

Sorceress 335pts
- Level 4
- Channelling Staff
- Pendant of Khaeleth
- Darkstar Cloak

-=[Hero]=-

Master 150pts
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Banner of Hagreath
- Heavy Armour
- Shield
- Halberd

Master 130pts
- Armour of Darkness
- Crimson Death

-=[Core]=-

Crossbow Men [20] 240pts
- Full Command
- Shields

Crossbow Men [20] 240pts
- Full Command
- Shields

Crossbow Men [20] 240pts
- Full Command
- Shields

Spearmen [24] 183pts
- Full Command
- Shields

Assassin 151pts
- Additional Hand Weapon
- Rending Stars
- Manbane

-=[Special]=-

Black Guard [24] 372pts
- Full Command
- Banner of Murder

-=[Rare]=-

War Hydra 175pts

War Hydra 175pts

Total Points = 2,391

This actually leaves me with 9pts, but I have no idea what I would use the additional 9pts on.

castellanash
03-08-2011, 00:29
Aren't BG max of 20? People will argue assassins aren't worth it but I take them... Thanks for not being in the assassin hate camp. And no sacrificial dagger? That's rare. Also no cauldron? They've got a lot of love... Shades are apparently a neccessity though... I like the list just expect these sorts of comments...

tmarichards
03-08-2011, 00:57
The level 4 is illegal, as she has 2 arcane items. I'd actually drop them both and take the Sacrificial Dagger. That way, you can run her in a bunker of 15-18 warriors with a musician. If the plan is for her to be the general, you can also run them with a standard bearer with the Standard of Discipline.

Also, make sure you run the mage with Lore of Shadow for maximum effectiveness.

The masters are both a waste really, you'll get far better use out of a Cauldron BSB.

Black Guard are limited to 20 max.

I'd drop the xbows down to 10 each, as well as dropping the big unit of warriors entirely in favour of the bunker I suggested above. That will give you the points to add a Corsair block, some Witches and some shades.

Pawn of Decay
03-08-2011, 08:53
Hmm ok. Completly missed that Black Guard were a max size of 20. Also seemed to have missed the fact that the Sorceress had 2 Arcane items. That will teach me for trying to write an army list late at night.

Why would you drop the Crossbow Men down to units of 10 instead of units of 20??

Also why would people suggest shades. Looking at their rules I can't see why people are saying how great they are. It would seem to me that Dark Riders perhaps could be a better option?

It seems I need to have a good look at it all though, so will post version 2 up later.

tmarichards
03-08-2011, 10:27
I prefer units of 10, and only 2 of them, for several reasons.

The first is that it gives you points to spend on other parts of the army. In 8th edition, shooting is all very well and good, but combat is where games are won and won big. Spending an extra 300pts on shooting can severely affect your combat potential.

Second is that if you want to invest in shooting, shades are a much better choice- I rate them as the best choice in the DE book after the Cauldron of Blood (hydra comes in 3rd place IMO). They can take a bit of getting used to, but once you get the hang of it having BS5, WS5 Scouting weapons platform can really cause most armies nightmares because of how hard they are to pin down. If you watch any of my Youtube battle reports (link in my signature) you'll notice a running theme of people having to commit 3-4 times their points worth just to stop them destroying their army.

Third is a choice of flexibility- 2 units of 10 allows you to shoot at 2 units, gives you double the deployments and also gives you another redirector. 105pts is enough that you can throw them away if you need to, whereas 205 starts to add up (I dislike anything that gets to about 250+pts). Your opponent also has to deal with 2 separate units.

There is, however, a good point to be made in that units of 20 do give you another combat block. However, I prefer to use my specialist combat units for combat, and I like the flexibility of units of 10 xbows. Your best bet is to play a few games with each option, and see which you prefer.

Dark Riders do seem good on paper, but they are very very fragile (shades are harder to hit with their ability to scout and their Skirmisher -1)- and, for the same points, you can get twice as many xbows.

Pawn of Decay
03-08-2011, 12:12
Hmm. Thank your for that. It has been very helpful and I am sure will have changed my mind on a few things when it comes to me re doing the list.

What are peoples opinions on the Assassins as a unit in the current edition

Pawn of Decay
03-08-2011, 13:19
Ok. So after taking some peoples advice and looking at various different options I have reworked the list quite a lot. I have decided to go with a Dreadlord instead of the Sorceress Lord to give me the additional character killing option. He should be a tough guy to get through, whilst being able to dish out the damage back. Due to this though I have almost maxed out on the Hero allocation, but the cheap Lord should balance that out hopefully.

As before all comments and criticism are welcome.

-=[Lord]=-

Dreadlord – 240pts
- Armour of Darkness
- Dawnstone
- Pendant of Khaeleth
- Soul Render

-=[Hero]=-

Death Hag – 285pts
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Cauldren of Blood
- Banner of Hag Graeth
- Witchbrew

Sorceress – 160pts
- Level 2
- Sacrificial Dagger
- Unsure of which Lore to use.

Sorceress – 150pts
- Level 2
- Tome of Furion
- Unsure of which Lore to use.

-=[Core]=-

Spear Men [30] – 225pts
- Full Command
- Shields

Spear Men [16] – 127pts
- Full Command
- Shields

Crossbow Men [10] – 105pts
- Musician

Crossbow Men [10] – 105pts
- Musician

Assassin – 151pts
- Additional Hand Weapon
- Rending Stars
- Manbane

-=[Special]=-

Black Guard [20] – 320pts
- Full Command
- Banner of Murder

Shades [5] – 90pts
- Great Weapons

Shades [5] – 90pts
- Great Weapons

-=[Rare]=-

War Hydra – 175pts

War Hydra – 175pts

Total Points: 2,398

tmarichards
03-08-2011, 13:22
Great Weapons are a bad idea on shades, as it means they will Always Strike Last- just about anything will clean them up before they get to attack.

The magic kit and Gifts are a waste on the Cauldron, most people will avoid it unless they know they will kill it quickly, and in when people do engage it they tend to do it something that won't be worried by the magic stuff.

Pawn of Decay
03-08-2011, 14:57
Hmm well the Cauldren is going to join the Dreadlord in the Black Guard Hopefully. Blessing the unit with +1 attack maybe, combined with always strike first, eternal hatred and Armour Piercing, I am hoping that will make one very nasty unit.

Sorceress with the Dagger joins the small Spearmen unit. The large Spearmen unit is there to protect one of the Black Guards Flank. Moved the Cross bowmen to smaller squads as suggested. Are units of 5 enough for the shades? If you drop the Great Weapons that would leave me with 10pts by giving them the additional Hand Weapons, what would you do with those spare points??

Also which Magic Lores would you suggest for the two Sorcereces?

If I drop the Khainite gift on the Cauldren that would free up another 25 points leavel 35 points in total.

Is the Assassin a good idea? Or would you drop him, and using the free 188pts put more bodies into the units of Shades??

Also is the second list a much better improvement?

tmarichards
03-08-2011, 17:04
The Cauldron is a war machine, which means it unfortunately can't join units- this is whay magic kit on it is largely wasted.

I'd probably suggest Shadow, but I'd actually be inclined to try and fit a level 4 in with the stabby dagger rather than the 2 level 2s. The +4 to cast is excellent.

The assassin is still a good choice, but his problem is that he is now a strictly shooting chap- not being able to clear his killzone any more means he'll get attacked back. If you want to deal damage at range, I find a level 1 with Fire to be a superb choice. I've used her in plenty of games, and I'm finding more and more that she's one of the best things in the army.

Second list is certainly stronger.

Morax
03-08-2011, 17:38
I'd probably suggest Shadow, but I'd actually be inclined to try and fit a level 4 in with the stabby dagger rather than the 2 level 2s. The +4 to cast is excellent.

The assassin is still a good choice, but his problem is that he is now a strictly shooting chap- not being able to clear his killzone any more means he'll get attacked back. If you want to deal damage at range, I find a level 1 with Fire to be a superb choice. I've used her in plenty of games, and I'm finding more and more that she's one of the best things in the army.

Second list is certainly stronger.

Agreed and agreed but with one exception. The assassin can go and mix it up in combat, but he is not going to survive. Which means that what you are sending him after better be worth more then he is, I'm looking at you Teclis. Sacrificing your assassin to kill a level 4 wizard is almost always a good choice and almost always feasible. Vampire counts, warriors of chaos, and tomb kings can make this trickier. The Vampire counts level 4 will more then likely kill your assassin by him self, him being still a vampire. The Warrior of chaos may have a unit champion that will challenge and kill your assassin, chosen champions are usually rough. Tomb kings will usually sacrifice a champion and then raise him back, keeping the assassin in a perpetual challenge. Just be aware of the risks and rewards before sending the assassin....assassinating.

Since the BSB cannot join units you should probably drop the banner and the witchbrew. Combined with the points you would be saving by droping the great weapons on the shades you may have enough to upgrade one of the casters to level 4. If not I would try to find the additional points. A level 4 caster is highly useful, the bonus to cast never goes amiss, but it is the bonus to dispell where they truely shine.

For choice of lores, fire and shadow are the standard choices for dark elves. Shadow's hexes and augments are priceless and pit of shades can make some very nasty things very afraid. Fireball, the signature spell of fire, is just about the best back-up spell to have. If you find you have extra dice lying around, throwing a fireball at something...anything is usually a good idea. As shadow has more flexability, if you were going to mix the two lores in your list, take shadow on the level 4. The additional spells will come in handy and will increase your ability to get the ones you want.

As a side note, taking 2 shadow wizards can also be an excellent idea. It will insure you get all of the spells you want and doubling up on the signature spell can have devestating effects on the opposition. No one likes to hear that their giant deathstar unit is movement value 1.

Pawn of Decay
03-08-2011, 23:18
Hmmm. Ok, so I have put a lot of thought into this and have been playing around with various points and trying to work with synergy a lot. I have dropped the Cauldren atm as I am unsure about it not being able to join a unit. I am also still very unsure about the Assassins use, so atm I have dropped him in favour of increasing the number of crossbow men and bringing in a unit of Corsairs. The Slavers rule seems a nice touch and should help if I manage to break people.

After the adjustments I have come up with Version 3 of the army list. Thank you all so far for your help, if you could please give me some more advice and tips on the changes, whether you think its an improvement or not, would be a great help.

-=[Lords]=-

Dread Lord - 225pts
- Armour of Darkness
- Crimson Death
- Pendant of Khaeleth

Supreme Sorceress - 285pts
- Level 4
- Sacrificial Dagger
- Lore of Shadows

-=[Heros]=-

Master - 157pts
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Armour of Eternal Servitude
- Shield
- Soulrender

-=[Core]=-

Crossbow Men [20] - 225pts
- Musician
- Shields

Crossbow Men [20] - 225pts
- Musician
- Shields

Spear Men [18] - 141pts
- Full Command
- Shields

Corsairs [25] - 300pts
- Full Command
- Sea Serpent Standard

-=[Special]=-

Black Guard [20] - 320pts
- Full Command
- Banner of Murder

Shades [5] - 85pts
- Additional Hand Weapon

Shades [5] - 85pts
- Additional Hand Weapon

-=[Rare]=-

War Hydra - 175pts
- Standard Rules

War Hydra - 175pts
- Standard Rules

Total Points: 2,398

tmarichards
03-08-2011, 23:39
Dropping the Cauldron is a mistake IMO. Even though it can't join a unit it's pretty tough to bring down (a handful of spells aside), and I would say is the best choice out of the entire book (then shades, then hydras)

A smaller unit of spears would be nice for the level 4 to stab, and the Corsairs could do with another 5 bodies or so. Also, give them the Sea Serpent Standard. Nomnomnomnomnom...

Pawn of Decay
03-08-2011, 23:51
Hmm. The Cauldren does seem ok, but I am not sure how it will fit in with the rest of the army. Dropping the Spearmen down to 18 will give me 42 points spare. Drop 2 Shades would give me another 34 points. That would free up the points to increase the Corsairs to 25 strong and frees up the points for the Magic Banner.

Have ammended the army list accordingly.

tmarichards
04-08-2011, 00:45
The Cauldron is often used as the BSB, which is a very good and safe option for it.

Pawn of Decay
04-08-2011, 08:40
Hmmm ok. So what benefits are you really getting for the Cauldren in this sort of army list? If I dropped the Master it would cost another 75 points to take the Cauldren as a BSB, not sure where I would get those points from, and surely if it's a War Machine it will lag behind the rest of the army?

Along with being easily picked out.

Count Zero
04-08-2011, 12:11
it's all about the situational use of the CoB's blessings. Early stages you can run the 5+Ward on the BG to try and keep a few alive. But when you start hitting combat then you throw in the +1 attack or killing blow on either the BG or the Corsairs then you will start to see the damage that thing can help cause.

the extra damage the CoB's blessings will allow your army to cause will far out weigh how many kills your master will do on his own during the battle. Killing it in CC isn't that easy too, as it will be shielded by most of your army so only small units of scouts/skirmishers/flyers will be bale to get to it, which it can deal with pretty easy

and it's not like the master is that hard to kill by a determined foe, some spells can kill the CoB easy but then some can kill a character easy too (Death sniper spells, Dwellers, Hounds etc).

run the CoB in a test game, 225 points, and i'm pretty sure you will decide to stick with it.

edit: it won't lag that far behind, it can move 5" and has a range of 24" for the blessings, most of the combat will tend to take place around the middle of the table on most occasions anyway and you can pre measure to check you are in BSB range etc.

Pawn of Decay
04-08-2011, 13:05
Hmm ok. You are certainly convincing me. But what would you suggest to drop to make up the 68 points difference?

tmarichards
04-08-2011, 15:28
Dropping the BG champion and Corsair champion will get you 24pts, after that I'd just drop few xbows.

Count Zero
04-08-2011, 15:31
if you are dropping the BSB you could drop the lord's crimson death and give him the soul render for an extra 10 points.

Count Zero
04-08-2011, 16:07
Also i know it's your list and I feel bad suggesting too many changes, but if it was me, i'd drop the Dreadlord and 10 RxB's to give you 335 points, just right for a unit of 30 witches with full command and flaming banner. In horde formation and with a +1A blessing from the CoB that unit puts out 61 hatred attacks hitting at I6!!!

that would make your list very simialr to my GT list though.

Also one minor points that's worth keeping in mind is you come up vs our hated cousins the HE vs BG & WE only PG and DP get the ASF re-roll, WL & SM are I5 so don't.

Pawn of Decay
04-08-2011, 16:34
No no, all suggestions are great. I think the main reason I have stayed away from the Witch Elves so far were the models... lol. I just think they are awful. But I will have a look into their game playing ability.

And very sorry but I am not sure on all your abreviations. I know that HE is High elves, and then I get a bit lost. lol. sorry.

Count Zero
04-08-2011, 17:48
that's ok, :

PG: Phoenix Guard
DP: Dragon Princes
WL: White Lions
SM: Swordmasters.

turning back to the characters debate i just don;t think DE fighty characters are worth it currently, the LD boost isn't as vital it is for some armies as we generally have good LD, and with BSB's etc to help out as well. DE characters just feel to expensive, and when you are paying a high initial cost then you always feel you have to back that up with decent Magic items too. Your lord for instance is putting out 4 Str 6 hits a turn. instead of him you could run 18 Executioners, 17 Black Guard, 22 witch Elves, 14 shades etc you can put a lot of elite bodies onthe table who, over the course of the game, will porbably do more.

Having said that their is one popular lord build which i haven't personally run. it involves tooling up the lord to be very defensive (high armour, pednant etc), giving him the crown of command as well as a 2+Ward vs Flaming attacks so you have most bases covered. Mount him on a Peg or Steed then use him as a road block to hold up your opponents best unit.

tmarichards
04-08-2011, 18:39
To be completely honest... I think that there are better choices for a DE army at 2400 than double hydra. Double hydra is certainly good, but is very much a noob-killer. Big units of shades and the unkillable stubborn flying dreadlord are, in my opinion, better wys to spend the points than second hydra.

Also, re Witch Elves- I've been using Dark Eldar Wyches, I find they work very well.

Pawn of Decay
05-08-2011, 00:07
Hmmm. Well making some changes to the list I can bring something like this to the table.

-=[Lord]=-

Supreme Sorceress - 285pts
- Lore of Shadow
- Level 4
- Sacrificial Dagger

-=[Hero]=-

Death Hag - 225pts
- Cauldren of Blood
- Battle Standard Bearer

-=[Core]=-

Crossbow Men [10] - 105pts
- Musician

Crossbow Men [10] - 105pts
- Musician

Crossbow Men [10] - 105pts
- Musician

Dark Elf Warriors [15] - 105pts
- Shields

Black Arc Corsairs [25] - 290pts
- Standard Bearer
- Musician
- Sea Serpent Banner

-=[Special]=-

Shades [5] - 85pts
- Additional Weapons

Shades [5] - 85pts
- Additional Weapons

Witch Elves [30] - 315pts
- Standard Bearer
- Musician

Black Guard [20] - 320pts
- Full Command
- Banner of Murder

-=[Rare]=-

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100pts
- Standard Set Up

Repeater Bolt Thrower - 100pts
- Standard Set Up

War Hydra - 175pts
- Standard Set Up

Total Points = 2,400pts

tmarichards
05-08-2011, 00:15
Reapers are not a very good choice, doubling the size of the shade units would be a better choice.

The flaming banner on the Witches would also be ace, I'd personally drop them to 25 or even 20. That's also allow you to take 2 units of 5 harpies.

Also, if you can free up the points, put a standard bearer on the bunker and give them the Standard of Discipline for a ld10 general.

Pawn of Decay
05-08-2011, 10:07
Hmm ok. So following your suggestions I would end up with this as an army list. (not 100% sure on the points as I am trying to remember the Flaming Banners points from Memory).

-=[Lord]=-

Supreme Sorceress – 285pts
- Lore of Shadow
- Level 4
- Sacrificial Dagger

-=[Hero]=-

Death Hag – 225pts
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Cauldron of Blood

-=[Core]=-

Repeater Crossbow Men [10] – 115pts
- Musician
- Shields

Repeater Crossbow Men [10] – 115pts
- Musician
- Shields

Repeater Crossbow Men [10] – 115pts
- Musician
- Shields

Dark Elf Warriors [15] – 135pts
- Full Command
- Shields
- Banner of Discipline

Black Arc Corsairs [25] – 300pts
- Full Command
- Sea Serpent Banner

-=[Special]=-

Shades [10] – 170pts
- Additional Hand Weapons

Shades [10] – 170pts
- Additional Hand weapons

Black Guard [20] – 320pts
- Full Command
- Banner of Murder

Witch Elves [25] – 285pts
- Full Command
- Banner of Eternal Flame

-=[Rare]=-

War hydra – 175pts

Comes to a total: 2,400pts if I have remembered all the points costs correctly.

Count Zero
05-08-2011, 10:15
the flaming banner is half of what you remembered :)

if you got all the other points right that would leave you enough to put the standard of discipline on the spearmen too.

nice looking list, let us know how yor first battle with it goes.

Pawn of Decay
05-08-2011, 10:57
Cheers. I will have to see how it performs. It is very different from the Warriors of Chaos army I first tried to run which was small and had a couple of big characters which is good. I have got a game lined up borrowing my friends Dark Elves to try this out at the weekend. Sadly it is against my Friends Dwarfen Army. So it will be a tough fight.

Thanks for everyones help with this list.

tmarichards
05-08-2011, 16:24
List is looking very nice indeed.

The most important stage now comes up, which is to play as many games with it as you can, and then see if there are any changes you'd like to make.

Pawn of Decay
05-08-2011, 16:43
Yea. Well I am fairly excited about the list and the army, so I have arranged to play my mates dwarfs tonight, along with a friends High Elves. So getting 2 games in tonight should help me see how it performs.

Pawn of Decay
06-08-2011, 18:31
Hmm. Well tried the army list out last night against my friends Wood Elves and got massacred. had some bad dice rolls and made a couple of rooky mistakes, but over all the army actually performed resonably well. Tomorrow I am playing against Wood Elves again, High Elves and Lizardmen.

tmarichards
06-08-2011, 19:29
Wood Elves are actually a pretty bad match-up for this sort of list, as they can first of all out-shoot you and love taking out small, lightly armoured elite blocks. Your best bet is to go for the Zerg rush, spamming the ward on the Witches.

Pawn of Decay
06-08-2011, 22:34
Hmm. Yes, the Wood Elves out shot me by a long way, but it was mainly the Treekin and Treeman that did the major damage to the army. That and I kept failing frenzy tests, so had to declare charges against the bloody things when I wasn't ready to get combined charges in.

What are your opinions on Executioners with a BSB and the Banner of Hagraeth in the unit? They can go higher than units of 20 and are fairly tempting as a harder hitting unit.

Count Zero
06-08-2011, 23:28
the witches/corsairs can re-roll frenzy if they are with 12" of the bsb right?

i don't think the exec + asf bsb are worth it. the asf bsb costs at least 125 points, probably more once you upgrade the hag. due to step up, supporting attacks etc she is going to die so quick, she's a 2 wound T3 elf with at best a 5+ ward. but one who is very killy and boost her unit, so you will only get 1 round of hits from them with that as she will be target number 1 in return. if you are going to run Exec's you'd porbably be best spending the points on 10 more exec's and just taking the hits.

i do like exec's but have come back roundto using flaming poision witches and BG as i think overall they are better than the s6 the exec's bring.

good luck in your next games.

tmarichards
06-08-2011, 23:29
The unfortunate thing about Executioners is that they don't do anything that Witches or Corsairs with Mindrazor don't do with more attacks, at a higher strength, at a higher initiative and without needing a very fragile and expensive BSB in there to make them even vaguely useful.

The only time I could see them being used is in a heavily comped environment, or if you're not worried about gearing your list for maximum efficiency.

Flaming Witches should've rolled over the Treekin and Treeman in one phase- every time you roll a 6 to hit them, they have to make a ward save or suffer 2 wounds (flammable). That should be your aim against Treekin and Treemen, get the Witches into them and they should burn.

Also, against Wood Elves, Mindrazor is often less useful than Pit- the Witches will deal with the high toughness stuff, and you can also Pit the units that the Witches can't get to. Pit also has the advantage of being able to be cast at range, so you get several tries at it- remember, they can only have one dispel scroll. Draw it out early!

Monstrum
08-08-2011, 09:50
Hi, i'm trying to get together a competative 2400 DE list as well, and I really like the final list you guys came up with. I have a few questions though (very new to 8th edition, only played in 6th and 7th):

1. shades are basically the old waywatchers but without special rules. -1 vs shooting is decent but you can't always rely on cover, plus you have 2 big units, at 18pt for t3 and no armor wouldn't they get decimated by archers? 20 shots at bs3 str3 is on average 3.5 kills. although this does mean they won't be targeting the witches & BG

2. i also agree that with the 8th edition cavalry has greatly reduced in power, and it's rarely seen in number, hence killing blow/high str isn't as vital as number of attacks (witches/BG->execs). this being said, shouldn't the witches be atleast 30? maybe even 35/40? considering the amount of punishment they'll be taking now that killed minis still get an attack back

3. why full command on witches, BG and corsairs? the champions aren't worth the points, they dont have a hero to protect. thats 34pt to save

4. are shields really needed on the repeater xbows's? surely shades/witches/BG will be more of a priority for enemy shooters, and they will get decimated in melee either way. another 30pt to save

5. what exactly is the plan to keep the sorceress alive? stand in the back with the warriors behind the big units next to the cauldron? what happens when they use fliers? also isn't the sb with the standard of discipline and champ a bit of a waste considering theyll be sitting at the back? 27pt to save

6. why are 2 hydras considered "vs noob only"? one hydra is hard to deal against, having two of them just makes it even harder doesn't it? do you mean it's cheesy and looked down upon?

with the 91pt saved above, 6 additional witches can be bought, leaving 31pt. dropping 8 shades (leaving 2 units of 6) gives 144pt, enough for the 2nd hydra. worth it?

i apologize in advance for being pedantic and if i asked stupid questions!

ps- also this is the type of list to be destroyed vs shooting and war machines. isn't it a good idea to drop a unit of xbows to add 2 units of 5 harpies?

tmarichards
08-08-2011, 10:19
1. Shades are good because they don't have to be deployed in your opponents deployment zone to get good effect out of them. They have some bad match ups (TK, VC, WE are the first that spring to mind). If your opponent has archers, don't commit your army piecemeal- zerg rush!

2. High strength is still very useful for getting through armour or high toughness- T4 and a 4+ save are the bane of corsairs and witches and is but no means uncommon, Shadow magic helps you ger around this. Also, I've used Witches in sizes running down from 40 to now 20, and 20 does just as much as 40 in most cases- All you're doing by taking more in one unit of grouping more points into something that your opponent can shoot at the same time- with the extra 200pts you'd save by taking 200 over 400, you can also round out your army more comprehensively.

3. I don't take champions on those units unless they're taking extra kit, Crimson Death on the BG champion is a valuable way of getting more high strength, and more importantly magical, attacks.

4. Shields are a nice way of making them pretty survivable, and help out a lot vs HE, TK and WE- armies that otherwise have the upperhand in the early shooting phases. They're not vital though.

5. The mage sits at the back in the bunker, if they come after you with flyers you shoot them or engage them. I'm going to be doing a tactica video on my Youtube channel (link in my signature) pretty soon on how do play against the unkillable dreadlord before too long, as I've used him to great effect and I know a lot of people have no idea what to.

6. I consider 2 hydras to often be a good noob killer because people can often not know how to deal with them, or not have a list that is suitable for it- for example, Wood Elves often struggle to bring down one, let alone 2. However, other armies (Dark Elves, Lizards etc) can usually bring down 2 without much more difficulty. It's not to say that 2 ren't really good, they are- I just think you can spend those second batch of 175pts better.

I love harpies, and I always take 2 units. Awesome little critters.

b4z
08-08-2011, 10:59
Flaming Witches should've rolled over the Treekin and Treeman in one phase- every time you roll a 6 to hit them, they have to make a ward save or suffer 2 wounds (flammable). That should be your aim against Treekin and Treemen, get the Witches into them and they should burn.

Treekin have a 4+ armour save, then 5+ ward.

Treeman has a 3+ armour save, then 5+ ward.

Thus Strength 3 Witch Elves with Poision and Flamming Banner really isn't as effective as you claim.

You have to get the wounds through their Armour AND Wards first, before you can delight in seeing them double.

[Of course I am presuming no Mindrazor here]

[My regular opponent is a Wood Elf player and i have tried un-mindrazored Witch Elves with Flaming Banner against a block of 6 Treekin and/or his Treeman umpteen times, pretty dissapointing]

Miasma and Pit of Shades combination works wonders on Treekin and Treeman ;) [use the small template!!! only d6 scatter]

Monstrum
08-08-2011, 11:20
thanks very much for the comprehensive answer!

what about using the spare points for a vanilla 20+ unit of executioners deployed 10 wide? with the cauldron +1 attack thats 30 attacks (re-rollable the first round) at str6. assuming average rolls (3+ to hit with reroll, 2+ to wound) you're looking at 22 wounds vs most opponents, which is insane. kb is un-needed overkill, but still. even at 7 wide its 16 wounds.
in comparison the BG will dish out 40 attacks which is similiar numbers vs t3/5+ save opponents, but drastically reduce vs t4+ and 4+ saves.

im still not convinced hydras are that easy to deal with, as long as you use them for support and not 1 on 1 vs big units, since you can't hurt them with shooting

Pawn of Decay
08-08-2011, 16:33
Hmm ok, well after using this army again a few times I am fairly happy with it, but dissappointed with a couple of things.

The shades have been a bit hit and miss. Against the Highelves they did some great work taking out the Bolt Throwers fairly comfortably and then distracting fire power away from other units. The Block of Witchs worked great being my best unit all day. The Sorceress Lord also proved amazing when I started getting the dice off, debuffing White Lions to the stage where a unit of 25 got minced by the Lone Hydra.

However the biggest dissapointment have been the black guard. With the cauldren protecting the Witches with the Ward save, the small block of Black Guard have achieved nothing so far. The Corsairs have been a bit hit and miss as well, however they have drawn a lot of fire away from the Witches, which has been great.

I am thinking about dropping 1 of the units of Shades to stick some Harpies in. As well as this I am considering dropping the Black Guard unit altogether and taking the Second Hydra possibly. Unsure what else I would stick in the army, but a second sorceress, being level 2 is an option I have been looking at. All in all however yesterday I played against High Elves (damn Teclis), Warriors of Chaos and Dwarfs.

The Drawfen Gunline absolutly destroyed me, where as I managed a Draw against the Highelves and Beat the Warriors of Chaos army.

tmarichards
08-08-2011, 23:20
The main difference between my list and yours, is that I went away from the Black Guard in favour of the unkillable stubborn flying dreadlord, mainly for the same reasons you've encountered. He really helps out in a lot of bad match-ups, such as against Dwarfs

Pawn of Decay
09-08-2011, 08:29
Hmm, so what sort of thing does your Dreadlord take? I had a look at a Dreadlord on a Manticore, but when he was kitted out fully fitting in everything else was a struggle.

Monstrum
09-08-2011, 15:26
the dreadlord is on a dark pegasus for mobility (+50pt) and an extra 2 str6 on the charge. i believe the standard set up is:
GW
armor of eternal servitude (regen)
pendant of khaleth (2+ ws vs str5, 3+ vs str4, 4+ vs str3)
sea dragon cloak
shield

1+ armor save vs shooting, 3+ armor save vs melee (with the gw)

personally i think it's a bit gimmicky, he doesn't dish out much damage and all it takes is 1 lucky killing blow or a low str/ignore armor save spell and your 260pt lord is toast

Yakovs
09-08-2011, 15:47
I don't see the point in armour of eternal servitude, it only helps against the other tricksters shard and str 2, i thought the most common builds were:

Dreadlord, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon cloak, shield, Pegasus, Pendant of khaleth, Dragonhelm, sword of might, crown of command. 305pts

Dreadlord, Heavy Armour, Sea Dragon cloak, Pegasus, Pendant of khaleth, Dragonhelm, soulrender, crown of command. 297pts

tmarichards
09-08-2011, 16:14
Monstrums build is far from optimal. The combination which is rapidly getting banned out of every combination is a DreadPeg with full mundane, Sword of Might, Pendant of Khaeleth, Crown of Command and Dragonhelm.

So a 1+ in combat and then the Pendant save.

Pawn of Decay
09-08-2011, 16:16
Monstrums build is far from optimal. The combination which is rapidly getting banned out of every combination is a DreadPeg with full mundane, Sword of Might, Pendant of Khaeleth, Crown of Command and Dragonhelm.

So a 1+ in combat and then the Pendant save.

Hmmm, i may have to have a look into it tonight then and post up a new version of the list.

kizzer2288
09-08-2011, 18:25
I used the dreadlord build of:SDC,shield,heavy armour,pendant,drangonhelm,sword of might,crown of command on a horse,it held up a unit of 25 White lions for 4 turns,it has also taken out the big spider thing from the ork and goblin book on his own.
I'm going to the October GT with my list which is very similar to yours and I have great success with it so far.
I would defonatley listen to what tmarichards says he knows his stuff lol :)