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Fieos
03-08-2011, 18:09
The Cadaverous Cuirass (VC codex) grants immunity to killing blow and to poison for the character wearing it. Does this also encompass Heroic Killing Blow?

Lord Inquisitor
03-08-2011, 18:16
I would say yes it stops HKB - HKB is just a special type of Killing Blow.

drear
03-08-2011, 18:21
heroic killing blow is a specific type of attack, and it isnt in the item description.
it isnt just kb +

so no it doesnt stop heroic killing blow

T10
03-08-2011, 18:22
Yes. Heroic Killing Blow affects additional troop types, but it is just a more advanced version of the basic Killing Blow.

The bearded one
03-08-2011, 18:27
Similarly to thunderstomps being written down as if it is a subsection of the "stomp" special rule, heroic killing blow appears a subsection of the killing blow special rule, making it a bit unclear wether it is a completely seperate rule or an advanced state of the same rule.

The dwarven rune of preservation which makes a character immune to killing blow has been errata'd to also work against heroic killing blow. Take from that whatever interpretation you will.

decker_cky
03-08-2011, 18:41
The dwarven rune of preservation which makes a character immune to killing blow has been errata'd to also work against heroic killing blow. Take from that whatever interpretation you will.

This is really the only thing that muddies the water at all. I'd tend to put this as typical GW confusing things by overstating their rules.

wingate32
03-08-2011, 20:47
HKB only adresses sizes anyway so I would say the character is immune.

Grimgormx
04-08-2011, 21:50
Killing blow and heroic killing blow are similar but arent the same, there is a difference that mades them completely different rules.

So if an item grants inmunity to KB, it doesnt gives inmunity to heroic KB unless it saids so.

Its like armor save and ward save, they are similar, they are saves, but also has different rules, if a spell saids that it ignores armor saves, would you ignore ward saves to? ( I would love this so I can kill some phoenix guards, but, no, different rules)

Mid'ean
04-08-2011, 22:06
Immune for all the reason stated above. Heroic only lets you kill bigger things.

Lord Inquisitor
04-08-2011, 22:13
Killing blow and heroic killing blow are similar but arent the same, there is a difference that mades them completely different rules.
That's exactly the crux of the matter - are they different rules?

Skulltaker inflicts Killing Blow on a 5+ in challenges. This is clearly a modification, it's obviously still Killing Blow, only with a slight change. The Cuirass will protect against this, since it is Killing Blow.

The question is whether Heroic Killing Blow is its own ability or not? Or is it a modifier, like Skulltaker's killing blow?

As another example, Thunderstomp is a subcategory of Stomp in exactly the same way as KB and HKB. I would assume that any references to "Stomp" also apply to Thunderstomp. For example, the parry Ward save cannot be used against "Stomp attacks" (p88). Presumably, we can all agree you don't get parries against Thunderstomps either?

Grimgormx
04-08-2011, 22:24
Well, I also agree with those arguments, I would wait for a faq, or just agree with oponent before playing.

Grimgormx
04-08-2011, 22:28
Also, when VC book was written there wasnt such a thing like HKB, so is just a thing that needs clarification

EDMM
04-08-2011, 22:55
Heroic Killing Blow is its own, separate, special rule in the Rulebook.

It isn't Killing Blow.

Yrrdead
04-08-2011, 23:01
Heroic Killing Blow is its own, separate, special rule in the Rulebook.

It isn't Killing Blow.

I disagree EDMM it isn't its own, separate, special rule. Special rules are alphabetical. There is no special rule "Heroic Killing Blow" in the H's. It is a sub-rule under the special rule Killing Blow. Hence why it is found after Killing Blow and not under its own heading with the other "H's". Which others have already pointed out.

Lord Inquisitor
04-08-2011, 23:05
Heroic Killing Blow is its own, separate, special rule in the Rulebook.

It isn't Killing Blow.

By that logic, Thunderstomp is its own, separate, special rule in the Rulebook. It isn't Stomp.

Therefore you get parry saves against Thunderstomps but not Stomps?

As Yrrdead says, it's listed as a subsection to the primary rule (which is Killing Blow). It's not obvious to me that this is separate at all.

EnternalVoid
05-08-2011, 05:32
Going to add one thing to the thought it is a subsection.

The title Killing Blow, is the same size as the rest of the special abilities. Heroic Killing Blow is a smaller text size, the same size as under Frenzy 'Berserk Rage' and 'Losing Frenzy', and Thunderstomp is also a smaller text size under Stomp text size.

Personally, I think if you are immune to killing blow you are immune to Heroic Killing blow. But I will also agree they should have just put something in about this in the original rules or at the very least the FAQs.

[DaT]Seraf
05-08-2011, 11:56
in the dwarf faq the rune giving immunity to killing blow/poison was updated to include heroic killing blow

so it seems to be two different rules

in that mindset id say you are not immune to heroic killing blow, if your "only" immune to killing blow

GodlessM
05-08-2011, 19:32
So first Nehekaran Undead aren't Undead and now Heroic Killing Blow isn't a type of Killing Blow? I knew there was a good reason I starteplaying 40k again.

ihavetoomuchminis
05-08-2011, 21:01
So first Nehekaran Undead aren't Undead and now Heroic Killing Blow isn't a type of Killing Blow? I knew there was a good reason I starteplaying 40k again.

Have you read the 40K rules section? THere's the same level of....well....you know what i'm talking about (i don't want to get another warning from mods).

Leth Shyish'phak
05-08-2011, 23:30
So first Nehekaran Undead aren't Undead and now Heroic Killing Blow isn't a type of Killing Blow? I knew there was a good reason I starteplaying 40k again.

I think we need another, "Yes, the daemon really is a daemon this time. Just like the last time we gave the exact same answer." faq to be written.

AM1640
07-08-2011, 04:19
Heroic KILLING BLOW has the words KILLING BLOW in it. So if you are immune to killing blow then you are immune to Heroic Killing blow and killing blow from scary demons, and killing blow from couragous haflings, etc. The intent of the rules of becoming immune to killing blow is to protect you from killing blow of any kind. We all know GW has a history of leaving gaps in the updating of the rules.

[DaT]Seraf
07-08-2011, 07:11
Heroic KILLING BLOW has the words KILLING BLOW in it. So if you are immune to killing blow then you are immune to Heroic Killing blow and killing blow from scary demons, and killing blow from couragous haflings, etc. The intent of the rules of becoming immune to killing blow is to protect you from killing blow of any kind. We all know GW has a history of leaving gaps in the updating of the rules.

As i said, in the dwarven book erata there is one to add heroic killing blow protection to an item that already has protection from killing blow so that just cant be true, as much as you want protection from it

decker_cky
07-08-2011, 08:00
Seraf;5695290']As i said, in the dwarven book erata there is one to add heroic killing blow protection to an item that already has protection from killing blow so that just cant be true, as much as you want protection from it

Disagreed. You're assuming that they wrote that for a reason, but in many cases GW writes redundant things like that in the rules. The way heroic killing blow is listed in the rules is as a type of killing blow, so immunity to killing blow protects you from it's heroic ilk.

Gonzoyola
07-08-2011, 08:51
I love the debates that really have no true answer.

Both sides bring up points that no one has the authority to dispute.

There is the logical side who says: My character is immune to killing blow. This means that if anything tries to use the killing blow effect on my character, i am immune to it. Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow have the same effect, the only difference is eligible targets. Due to this, I am immune to Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow.



Then there is the side that says: You are immune to Killing Blow, but i have HEROIC killing blow. the rules dont say Heroic killing blow (Even though that rule wasn't around back then.)




The main thing is, it is just really redundant. Why would an item for an infantry sized character that makes them immune to being killing blowed, say that they are immune to Killing Blow, as well as Heroic Killing Blow, when Heroic Killing Blow as a whole is exactly the same thing, whether you are using normal Killing Blow to kill them, or Heroic Killing Blow to kill them, they are being killed by Killing Blow.

Es Mors
07-08-2011, 11:40
Ok, so we are arguing whether heroic killing blow is its own rule? Heroic killing blow is in page 72 of the basic rule book, its headline is a bit smaller than the headlines of the other rules, and it is right below the rule of killing blow. Let's say we interpret this as heroic killing blow being its own rule.

Now, let's look at page 67. It has (among others) three rules called Breath Weapon, Breath Weapon Shooting Attack and Breath Weapon Close Combat Attack. These are all different rules, because we are interpreting every headline as its own rules, even if it has smaller text than the rest of the rules.

Now, let's look at page 68. This page has many rules. One of them is Fast Cavalry, but unfortunately this does nothing, it just has some flavour text. There are other completely unrelated rules (under our interpretation) below it called "Vanguard", "Free Reform", "Characters", "Feigned Flight" and "Fire on the March".

Other effects of our interpretation: Troops with the Frenzy rule have extra attack and immune to psychology, but they can never lose frenzy unless they also have the Losing Frenzy rule. Fly only gives swiftstride and skirmishing, you have to have the Moving Flyers rule to get the 10 inch movement. Everybody gets parry saves against thunderstomp (as already pointed out many times in this thread). And so on.

Since the rules are unclear, we have to chose an interpretation. You can either play with heroic killing blow being a type of killing blow, or you can play with all of the above.

[DaT]Seraf
07-08-2011, 11:57
The main thing is, it is just really redundant. Why would an item for an infantry sized character that makes them immune to being killing blowed, say that they are immune to Killing Blow, as well as Heroic Killing Blow, when Heroic Killing Blow as a whole is exactly the same thing, whether you are using normal Killing Blow to kill them, or Heroic Killing Blow to kill them, they are being killed by Killing Blow.

right but the other way of looking at it is. Why the extra wording if they are the same, which would imply they are two different things, wouldnt it?

at least in my gamingcircle we're playing KB and HKB as two different abilitys

its a thing of interpreting all released rules vs only the ones you want to see

IrishDelinquent
07-08-2011, 20:22
I always look at problems like this with a lesson I learned from math class: a square is always a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. The rules regarding what shape is classified as a rectangle are

1). the shape must consist of four straight sides.
2). the shape must be made from four right angles.

whereas the rules for what shape is classified as a square are

1). the shape must consist of four straight sides.
2). the shape must be made from four right angles.
3). each side of the shape must be of equal length.

By this example you can see that a square meets the requirements of a rectangle, but a rectangle does not meet the requirements to be a square. The same is true of Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow. While they have similar effects, Killing Blow is not the same as Heroic Killing Blow. While they have similar names, they are not the same. Heroic Killing Blow =/= Killing Blow. If they were, why would GW errata an item to specifically include Heroic Killing Blow? You can claim it's as a result of inconsistency, but until that is corrected, I shall stick with the raw approach.

Lord Zarkov
07-08-2011, 20:38
In your analogy though, Killing Blow would be the rectangle, and Heroic Killing Blow the square - one is a subset of the other.

Es Mors
07-08-2011, 20:43
In your analogy though, Killing Blow would be the rectangle, and Heroic Killing Blow the square - one is a subset of the other.

Yep, and if all rectangles are red, then all squares are red. If something protects against killing blow, it also protects against heroic killing blow.

Also, I really want to know, do the ones supporting the other view play with parry saves against thunderstomp?

IrishDelinquent
07-08-2011, 22:33
In your analogy though, Killing Blow would be the rectangle, and Heroic Killing Blow the square - one is a subset of the other.

That is correct, but you are going in reverse. Rectangle is a subset of square, not vice versa. The same is true with KB/HKB. I'll give another analogy then. Let's user those old 'square peg through a round hole analogies, with the rectangle and the square. If you have a rectangular block that is 4x6, and a square block that is 4x4, then both blocks can fit through a 4x6 hole. But, only the 4x4 block can fit through a 4x4 hole. The same, IMO is true with KB/HKB; the 4x4 hole of Cadaverous Cuirass protects against the rectangle of KB, but not the 4x4 square of HKB. This opinion is based currently and solely on the fact that GW has gone back and errata'd a previous item/rune that protected against KB to also include HKB. If HKB was, as others claim, simply a subset of KB and therefore protected against by every item protecting against KB, then why would this errata be necessary?

Again, to clarify, I personally agree with the position that HKB is just a special type of KB, rather than just a seperate rule. And, had GW not made the ammendment to the Dwarfs armybook, I might be inclined to agree with you re: the cadaverous cuirass. However, since this is not the case, by RAW the item does not say it protects against HKB, like the Rune of Preservation does, and therefore does NOT protect against HKB.



Also, I really want to know, do the ones supporting the other view play with parry saves against thunderstomp?

Seeing as the rulebook says that Thunderstomp is treated exactly like Stomp, AND there has yet to be an errata or FAQ that specifies otherwise, I would not allow parry saves against Thunderstomp. Again, I agree that HKB should be treated just like KB except that it affects other unit types, but the rules ammendments per GW disagree.

H33D
07-08-2011, 23:44
So if I am immune to getting beaten by a stick and someone smacks me with a flaming stick and not just a stick, it will hurt me then because a flaming stick is not a stick.

So if a character is immune to killing blow and someone smacks him with heroic killing blow and not killing blow, it will affect the character then because heroic killing blow is not killing blow.

See the flaw in this logic?

All 'Killing Blow' abilities are prevented by the Cadaverous Cuirass. Heroic Killing Blow is Killing Blow with an adjective placed before it. The ONLY added bonus to having Heroic Killing Blow instead of the normal version is that it is Killing Blow that affects all troop types. Being immune prevents this ability from working.

Lord Inquisitor
08-08-2011, 00:06
I'm thoroughly confused here.


That is correct, but you are going in reverse. Rectangle is a subset of square, not vice versa.
By which definitions of square and rectangle? Explain this please because by my understanding a rectangle is is any quadrilateral with four right angles and a square is a quadrilateral with four right angles and four equal sides. Which would make the square a rectangle but not every rectangle a square.


I'll give another analogy then. Let's user those old 'square peg through a round hole analogies, with the rectangle and the square. If you have a rectangular block that is 4x6, and a square block that is 4x4, then both blocks can fit through a 4x6 hole. But, only the 4x4 block can fit through a 4x4 hole. The same, IMO is true with KB/HKB; the 4x4 hole of Cadaverous Cuirass protects against the rectangle of KB, but not the 4x4 square of HKB.
So you're saying Killing Blow is a subset of Heroic Killing Blow and the Cadaverous Cuirass protects against Killing Blow the specific subset and not the general form of Heroic Killing Blow?


This opinion is based currently and solely on the fact that GW has gone back and errata'd a previous item/rune that protected against KB to also include HKB. If HKB was, as others claim, simply a subset of KB and therefore protected against by every item protecting against KB, then why would this errata be necessary?
This can be explained by one of several things - (1) the writer of the errata was incompetent and thought that this was necessary, (2) the writer of the errata added the (redundant) term to prevent any confusion and ironically causing more confusion. Both have precedent. ;)


Seeing as the rulebook says that Thunderstomp is treated exactly like Stomp, AND there has yet to be an errata or FAQ that specifies otherwise, I would not allow parry saves against Thunderstomp. Again, I agree that HKB should be treated just like KB except that it affects other unit types, but the rules ammendments per GW disagree.
I fail to see there difference:

"[Thunderstomp] is otherwise treated exactly like a normal Stomp."
"[Heroic Killing Blow] functions exactly like a normal Killing Blow, except..."

These statements seem entirely analogous to me.

Es Mors
08-08-2011, 00:11
That is correct, but you are going in reverse. Rectangle is a subset of square, not vice versa.


Your math analogy is wrong. Squares is a subset of rectangles. If you looked at the set of all squares and the set of all rectangles, you would find that the latter contains all the elements of the former, not vice versa. You described the square as having the same properties as the rectangle and one additional property. This would make heroic killing blow the square and killing blow the rectangle.

Anyway, it seems we agree about the actual issue, but I wouldn't have any trouble treating HKB as KB, just because GW wasn't specific enough when writing the rules.

IrishDelinquent
08-08-2011, 03:25
So if I am immune to getting beaten by a stick and someone smacks me with a flaming stick and not just a stick, it will hurt me then because a flaming stick is not a stick.

Ummmm, yes? If a model is immune to a certain type of attack, and is then hit with a different type of attack, how is it immune to that second type of attack? The perfect example is a model with the Ethereal special rule. They are immune to non-magical attacks, but not immune to magical attacks. So if a model is wielding a mundane weapons and attacks an Ethereal model, it is immune. If that same model goes and picks up a magic weapon and then smacks an Ethereal model, they are not immune to the attack because it is now non-mundane.


So if a character is immune to killing blow and someone smacks him with heroic killing blow and not killing blow, it will affect the character then because heroic killing blow is not killing blow.

See the flaw in this logic?

No, I don't see the flaw in this logic. According to the FAQ of the Rune of Preservation, it protects against KB AND HKB (as well as poison, but that's not really relevant to the discussion). There have been 3 FAQs released after the Dwarfs FAQ (admittedly, none had an item that protected against KB or HKB), but the fact remains that if this was a mistake then GW has had time to remedy it. Hell, there's been an FAQ of the main rulebook since after the Dwarf FAQ, giving them the opportunity to address this supposed mistake.

As I have said many times now, the only reason I support the HKB is seperate from KB is because the Dwarf FAQ gives precedence for it. If that is remedied, then I will happily agree with the other side.


All 'Killing Blow' abilities are prevented by the Cadaverous Cuirass. Heroic Killing Blow is Killing Blow with an adjective placed before it. The ONLY added bonus to having Heroic Killing Blow instead of the normal version is that it is Killing Blow that affects all troop types. Being immune prevents this ability from working.

And "Monstrous" is just an adjective in front of the nouns "Cavalry" and "Infantry" :rolleyes:



I'm thoroughly confused here.


By which definitions of square and rectangle? Explain this please because by my understanding a rectangle is is any quadrilateral with four right angles and a square is a quadrilateral with four right angles and four equal sides. Which would make the square a rectangle but not every rectangle a square.

Fair enough, I mistakenly wrote the order of square and rectangle incorrectly. However, I thought in my previous post I said what you said here (admittedly without using the word quadrilateral).



So you're saying Killing Blow is a subset of Heroic Killing Blow and the Cadaverous Cuirass protects against Killing Blow the specific subset and not the general form of Heroic Killing Blow?

That's actually not at all what I said. I said that HKB is a subset of KB, and thought my analogy explained that. The rectangular hole allows both the rectangle block and square block to get through. However, let's use a square hole, big enough for the square block to get through, but not the rectangular block, to represent an item that protects against killing blow. The hole is too small for the rectangular block to fit through, but just the right size (i.e. does not specifically block HKB) to allow the square block through. Then, let us also have a circular hole, too small for either to fit through, representing the Rune of Preservation. Neither block can fit through the hole, because it's designed not to allow either through.



This can be explained by one of several things - (1) the writer of the errata was incompetent and thought that this was necessary, (2) the writer of the errata added the (redundant) term to prevent any confusion and ironically causing more confusion. Both have precedent. ;)

Or 3). The writer decided that HKB was seperate from KB, and decided to update this item as the first of many that will specifically block HKB. Again, I feel it's necessary to point out that I agree with your point of view, from a RAI standpoint. However, while this ammendment to the rules still exists, it creates a precedence that I feel is the correct interpretation as it stands. Where GW takes it from here is up to them, and in my opinion future FAQs will determine this rule.



I fail to see there difference:

"[Thunderstomp] is otherwise treated exactly like a normal Stomp."
"[Heroic Killing Blow] functions exactly like a normal Killing Blow, except..."

These statements seem entirely analogous to me.

And as I mentioned, I would agree with the fact that these statements are almost identical, if there was not an errata created after this rule seperating HKB from KB, at least as far as protection from said ability is concerned. Were an errata to come along, and say that a unit can claim parry saves from Thunderstomp and not Stomp, then I would agree with said errata.

JonnyTHM
08-08-2011, 04:19
Ummmm, yes? If a model is immune to a certain type of attack, and is then hit with a different type of attack, how is it immune to that second type of attack? The perfect example is a model with the Ethereal special rule. They are immune to non-magical attacks, but not immune to magical attacks. So if a model is wielding a mundane weapons and attacks an Ethereal model, it is immune. If that same model goes and picks up a magic weapon and then smacks an Ethereal model, they are not immune to the attack because it is now non-mundane.



That'd be because taking the complement is different than taking a subset?

You are immune to non-magical weapons, magical weapons are not a subset of non-magical weapons they are the compliment in the set of weapons.

If you are immune to all weapons and someone hits you with a magical weapon you're immune. If you're immune to non-magical weapons and someone hits you with a magical weapon you're not immune.

Heroic killing blow being a subset of killing blow would mean being immune to the larger set includes immunity to the subset.

RanaldLoec
08-08-2011, 06:56
The answer to this is let the dice decide.

ihavetoomuchminis
08-08-2011, 10:32
I love the rules forum.

So i pretend to fish in a river that forbids fishing.

A policeman sees me fishing and comes to sanction me.

And i tell him "i'm not fishing, i'm fishing SALMONS".

So....i'm not sanctioned.

Depulsor
08-08-2011, 11:50
The rules for heroic killing blow state:
"Works exactly like normal killing blow, exept ... "
So, everything that is immune to killing blow must be immune to HKB as well.
(exept ... )

The point is: It wouldnt work exactly the same as KB, if it wouldnt interact with Cadaverous Cuirass.

Es Mors
08-08-2011, 11:56
The dwarf errata may have been updated because that rune is the one exception and HKB is indeed a different rule from KB, or it may have been an error on the part of the writer, who wanted to clarify, but created more confusion. The point, is the latter is more believable, because it means the formatting of the rules in the BRB is consistent (HKB is not written as its own rule, it is placed with a smaller headline as a part of the KB rule).

cptcosmic
08-08-2011, 12:38
The rules for heroic killing blow state:
"Works exactly like normal killing blow, exept ... "
So, everything that is immune to killing blow must be immune to HKB as well.
(exept ... )

The point is: It wouldnt work exactly the same as KB, if it wouldnt interact with Cadaverous Cuirass.
"working as" & "counting as" are two different things ;)

Tregar
08-08-2011, 13:08
And as I mentioned, I would agree with the fact that these statements are almost identical, if there was not an errata created after this rule seperating HKB from KB, at least as far as protection from said ability is concerned. Were an errata to come along, and say that a unit can claim parry saves from Thunderstomp and not Stomp, then I would agree with said errata.

Does this mean, if we can find even a single case in the rules where something refers to both Stomps and Thunderstomps (Like how the Dwarf rune mentions Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow) then that will mean that Stomps and Thunderstomps should be considered as different rules, and a rule that pertains to stomps does not pertain to thunderstomps unless specifically stated as well?

I'm not saying there is or isn't ;) just wondering about your logic. I fear you give GW too much credit.

Depulsor
08-08-2011, 14:15
"working as" & "counting as" are two different things ;)

Yes, but KB doesnt work on a modell with Cadaverous Cuirass. Why should HKB work?
The rule is: "HKB works excatly the same as KB, exept ... "
If you let HKB work on a model with the Cadaverous Cuirass, then it doesnt work exactly like KB.