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View Full Version : Would you allow this, Carnifex+Chapter Approved



azimaith
08-04-2006, 03:37
Back in the nids tactica thread a few other people and I were discussing on the carnifex, its obvious flaws (slow as hell) and how to find a way to make the fex better.

So I was directed to the Chapter Approved "Making a Tyranid Monstrosity" articles. I read them and tried creating a carnifex that was "Fast" (Moves 9 and Assaults 9, may fire one weapon) Unfortunately the result was less that satisfactory coming out to less than the current carnifexes total base cost so I decided to scrap the build system and apply the modification costs directly to the basic carnifex in the current codex.

What I came out with was a carnifex that with no upgrades, cost 106 points, but could move and charge 9 inches.

Would you allow a person to use a carnifex that was upgraded using the chapter approved system so one could make a viable close assault fex, or is this going over the line.

(The current fex variation, the "Rampager" is basically a WS and I upgraded fex with 2 talons, tusks, and bio-plasma, toxin sacs, and thorn back.) It comes out to 171 points total including the 9 inch charge and assault

Acolyte
08-04-2006, 03:40
It depends. In a friendly game, I would, but not in a competitive game.

Warjammer
08-04-2006, 03:48
Not in a competitve game. With the new 'zilla armies going around do you really need to improve the Carnifex?

Khaine's Messenger
08-04-2006, 03:51
In a friendly game, maybe as a one-off or in several games to help you iron things out. Frankly, move/assault 9" doesn't frighten me all that much because Tyranids are generally famous for moving fast (heck, I wouldn't mind a "fleet" carnifex either). Of course, that on top of waves of gants, and I'd probably need to wear my brown pants and red shirt to the battle.

azimaith
08-04-2006, 03:55
Not in a competitve game. With the new 'zilla armies going around do you really need to improve the Carnifex?

Well the idea wasn't improve gunfexes, but to give a point to players taking CC fexes, as there currently is none. He won't impact till turn 4-5 and thats only if the other player decides to let you impact as he moves as fast as you do.

But the response is basically what I expected.

The way I would have run it would be:
The rampager is a lighter built fex thus may not take bonded or extended carapaces at all, another idea would be that the fex is enraged like back in the seeding swarm, so he'd have to charge anyone who was close by.

But I wanted to bring back that image of the carnifex, not some slow sluggish beast who slowly plods to the front battle lines, but a living seige engine who throws his entire body mass forward in an unstoppable charge using the razor spikes lining his carapace to impale anyone who gets in his way as he impacts.

Something like this:http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/getting-started/images/carnifex-attack.jpg

starlight
08-04-2006, 04:54
I would allow it under two conditions:

1) short-term - playtesting (I'll allow almost anything for a game or two *just to see*)

2) long-term - balanced with some limitations to either Biomorphs or points to keep it *light* and CC focused.

azimaith
08-04-2006, 04:59
Thats what I figured.
The idea would basically:
A: The Fex can't use any ranged weapons. It simply isn't capable of that kind of restraint.
B: The carnifex may not take Bonded exoskeleton or a extended carapace. It would slow the beast down too much.

A possible rule C would be the fex has to charge is able, which I wouldn't mind.

The original idea was also that the fex must move in a straight line to gain more speed (because its barreling at you, not nimbly racing along). So it may only use its faster movement if moving in a straight line. (This includes diagonaly but you can't turn after the start of your movement.

starlight
08-04-2006, 05:13
I wouldn't see any issues with something like that.

To balance the lack of Shooty, I'd even consider playtesting something like:

Living Engine of Death rule: For every multiple of three *full* inches of *assault* movement in a straight line, the Carnifex gets +1 Att to account for the massive damage done by a living battering ram. Or some such.:D

GodofWarTx
08-04-2006, 05:35
i think you guys are understimating the power of a FAST carnifex. I sure wouldnt want a T7, 5 Wound, billion-attack carnifex charging me about as fast as genestealers.

onnotangu
08-04-2006, 05:44
i think you guys are understimating the power of a FAST carnifex. I sure wouldnt want a T7, 5 Wound, billion-attack carnifex charging me about as fast as genestealers.
and I think you are forgetting about the large number of guns most people seem to bring to the table. esp assault cannons.

Tanith Ghost
08-04-2006, 05:56
Back in the nids tactica thread a few other people and I were discussing on the carnifex, its obvious flaws (slow as hell) and how to find a way to make the fex better.

So I was directed to the Chapter Approved "Making a Tyranid Monstrosity" articles. I read them and tried creating a carnifex that was "Fast" (Moves 9 and Assaults 9, may fire one weapon) Unfortunately the result was less that satisfactory coming out to less than the current carnifexes total base cost so I decided to scrap the build system and apply the modification costs directly to the basic carnifex in the current codex.

What I came out with was a carnifex that with no upgrades, cost 106 points, but could move and charge 9 inches.

Would you allow a person to use a carnifex that was upgraded using the chapter approved system so one could make a viable close assault fex, or is this going over the line.

(The current fex variation, the "Rampager" is basically a WS and I upgraded fex with 2 talons, tusks, and bio-plasma, toxin sacs, and thorn back.) It comes out to 171 points total including the 9 inch charge and assault

I'd say go for it. I'm a permissive and laid back 40k player, I'l let nearly anything go in the name of an entertaining battle.

azimaith
08-04-2006, 06:42
I figure i'd ask people at the place I play if they'd allow (If not i'd just run a different list)

But some times it seems that when GW doesn't make official changes its up to players to make changes in pursuit of a fluffy game.

I suppose they've already given us the tools (create a critter rules) so its up to us to use them.

I for one would like to be able to field an assaulty carnifex that I wouldn't feel was a big point hole. Especially when it conjures up the image that carnifexes are known for, a rampaging behemoth barreling at enemy lines into gunfire before sending whatever poor fools it impacts with flying through the air or trampling them underfoot.

starlight
08-04-2006, 07:24
But some times it seems that when GW doesn't make official changes its up to players to make changes in pursuit of a fluffy game.

Actually, this is one of the main fundamentals underlying *everything* that GW puts out.:D

azimaith
08-04-2006, 07:44
Yeah, the only problem with it is that its not "official" so I can't use a charging fex in a tournament, probably not in a pick up game either, which is alot of what I play.

Sergeant Tanthius
08-04-2006, 07:48
Nice idea, but most people have already said my opinion: keep it to non-tournie games.

And mybe limit him to 0-1. I won't like 3 of these supa assault carnifexes charging my way. One is easy to shoot down with a hail of AC, CML etc, but 2+ supa assault carnifext is a bit too much fur me:p

azimaith
08-04-2006, 08:28
I was thinking more along the lines of a 0-2 choice because CC fexes are so iconic of what tyranids are supposed to be. When people say carnifex, fluff wise, people generally don't think of VC+BS, they think of a huge creature with scything talons the length of school buses rampaging around.

With the current set up the carnifex would not be able to get t7 or 2+ saves.

They way I see it the hive tyrant would be the chaos daemon prince of tyranids, and the assault fex would be the blood thirster of tyranids.

lord_blackfang
08-04-2006, 10:09
Why use those outdated rules at all? 9" move and charge screws with the core mechanics, and I so hate things that screw with the core mechanics. Give it Fleet instead.

azimaith
08-04-2006, 10:46
Well that works just as well if you ask me. I'm just using whats provided in the chapter approved article.

Kadaan
08-04-2006, 10:57
I would personally like the approach of a CC carnifex. These shooty ones are just not as fluffy as the CC varaint. And to make it point-worthy I would allow my opponent to use such rules. I'm gonna talk to my Tyranid opponent about this, maybe we'll try this out the next game we play.

Scythe
08-04-2006, 11:33
I agree with blackfang here, fleet would work better as the 9" rule. Not only that, but it also makes taking the upgrade on gunfexes quite a waste, and does not unintentionally makes the gunfex a lot more flexible.

So, overall, make it a biomorph option which gives fleet to the carnifex. However, if you take it, you cannot take extended carapace, bonded exoskeleton (you could even forbid the almost compulsory reinforced chitin here). Leaves the point cost. 20-25 pts perhaps?

azimaith
08-04-2006, 13:16
The cost for "fast" is 21 points. So fleet (which is more useful and less useful in some aspects) would fit in fine at 20 points flat.

I'd allow reinforced chitin, because its essentially vital if you want to impact, extended carapace is too much for my tastes as is bonded exoskeleton (which would nearly all non-marine troops it assaults unable to even harm it).

Like I said, our hive tyrant is our flying 2+ save "Daemon prince" and our assault carnifex is our "bloodthirster" essentially.

Chaos and Evil
08-04-2006, 14:47
Like I said, our hive tyrant is our flying 2+ save "Daemon prince" and our assault carnifex is our "bloodthirster" essentially.

As a 20pt upgrade I don't know whether fleet would be balanced, especially if you also allow a 2+ save.

I'd either disalow the 2+ save aswell, or make fleet more expensive (Something like 35-40pts).

I think you're underestimating how brutal a fleet CC 'fex would be.

Scythe
08-04-2006, 14:48
Like said, the current plan is to not allow the 2+ save or T7 upgrade.

stormtrooper154
08-04-2006, 16:02
Im liking this idea. Im due to have a mega game against darkseer and i have 2 of the st fexs (they look cool). Hopefully he will agree to it.

boogle
08-04-2006, 16:05
I've let Xhalax know about that and when she finally gets her Nids into gear, will most certainly allow her Screamer Killer Fex to have the Fleet option

azimaith
09-04-2006, 01:25
Yep so this seems like the finished design.


"Rampager" 0-1
This carnifex has been spawned pumped full of adrenaline. Because of this the carnifex will charge without the slightest provacation. It is fleet of claw, as per the universal rule on page 75. As heavy armor or thick chitinous plates would slow the carnifex down too much, a carnifex with this ability may not take extended carapace or bonded exoskeleton.
Cost: 20 points.

AgentZero
09-04-2006, 10:18
What I came out with was a carnifex that with no upgrades, cost 106 points, but could move and charge 9 inches.

Would you allow a person to use a carnifex that was upgraded using the chapter approved system so one could make a viable close assault fex, or is this going over the line.

I'll let you use anything, just let me know what's up in advance.

crashbang
09-04-2006, 12:30
i would say, give saud carnifex a d3/d3+1 extra move for a 'lumbering charge'. dosnt sound like much, butll get the fex in a whole lot faster

Ophidicus
09-04-2006, 19:48
Good gods no! A carnifex, even with no upgrades to its armour is still T6 W4 Sv3+. It's far too dangerous to close before the enemy gets a chance to shoot it. That's all the slow movement is, a chance, which can be easily counteracted using Hormagaunt swarms, Raveners or *shock* Gargoyles. Don't be so impatient, when the Fex gets to the enemy in Turn 3/4 your opponent will know about it. Cease this silly Velocifex nonsense forthwith and learn to use the army as an army, not just padding for the big guys.
[/rant]

starlight
09-04-2006, 19:56
Sadly with it's normal move it is all to easy to avoid especially in Escalation games where it may not see CC at all.:(

azimaith
09-04-2006, 23:07
Then why does the carnifex, if its meant to be a gun platform, have 16 upgrades that are only useful in melee combat, having a about half that many in upgrades that are useful at range, including spore cysts and twin linked variants.

Why is it alright for chaos players to be able to get monstrous creatures like lords of change into close combat at a much higher initiative while its somehow wrong for tyranid players.

With a 6 inch move an opposing player can just move out of the way. Every time he moves out of the way hes delayed your carnifex for a turn. Move out of the way 2 times and the carnifex basically does nothing.

Being a 0-1 choice with a 3+ save and an initiative of 1, I don't see how this is so frightening to players. How is this any different than a squad of 3 assault marines and a sergeant with a power fist? (Other than being tremendously slower) 2 points of strength doesn't make much difference past 8 for anything but the toughest of toughs. With the number of lascannons, plasmaguns, railguns, Ionheads, and anything else ap3 or better I don't see how this is such a huge threat to people.

FoolsJourney
10-04-2006, 00:10
With a 6 inch move an opposing player can just move out of the way. Every time he moves out of the way hes delayed your carnifex for a turn. Move out of the way 2 times and the carnifex basically does nothing.

Except of course make your opponent move when he'd prefer not to. Send one down each flank- or 2 down the same flank, and channel your opponent towards your swarms of nastiness.

C. Langana
10-04-2006, 01:08
I think if looked at in isolation a 'velocifex' at the stated price is a good idea. However when considered in relation to the rest of the army it might need a few more points onto it's base cost. It remains a damn good idea, I always thought Carnifexes should be more like angry bull elephants or Rhinos, I remember back in the day all they had was one ranged attack - hawking acid phlegm.

zealousheretic
10-04-2006, 01:37
One idea I've been toying with (assuming I can find people willing to let me playtest it) is giving a carnifex an additional rule, worded thus.

Unstoppable Charge
When a carnifex charges, it's sheer momentum gives it terrifying speed for its size.
Once per game, a carnifex may add +d6" to it's assault move. This additional distance may not be taken if the carnifex has fired ranged weapons that turn.


The idea is to give the pure assault 'fex a bit of a boost, without making it dramatically faster. I like the image of an onrushing unstoppable stompy death machine. It could also easily be tweaked and reworked as a biomorph, if it turned out that it was good enough to warrant a point cost. I don't know about that, since at the moment an assault 'fex is probably a little overpriced.

Just a thought.

starlight
10-04-2006, 01:40
I'd rather have one or the other. Adding rules to create a Jack of all trades Master of none it is just wasting points to me.

On points cost, we'd have to play test it to see.

Tadite
10-04-2006, 02:56
Back in the nids tactica thread a few other people and I were discussing on the carnifex, its obvious flaws (slow as hell) and how to find a way to make the fex better.



Flaws?

Why on earth is one of the best pt for pt units in the game need anything? Doesn't it have enough bennifits just because it happens to be a monsterious creature?


This is just another example of the key problem with the 'nids.... To many nid players actual buy nid toys. The best nids are the cheap ones....

Scythe
10-04-2006, 09:35
Flaws?

Why on earth is one of the best pt for pt units in the game need anything? Doesn't it have enough bennifits just because it happens to be a monsterious creature?


This is just another example of the key problem with the 'nids.... To many nid players actual buy nid toys. The best nids are the cheap ones....

Then tell me why practically everyone agrees that a close combat carnifex that is not an elite choice is a waste of points.

It is not because of the looks people field gunfexes and dakkafexes instead of screamer killers.

Azimaiths suggestion does not make these already effective carnifex configurations any better. What it does do is give a small boost to a configuration rarely used.

You can't just state hell, it is a monstous creature, so it is way powerfull enough anyway. Following that logic, the Nightbringer would be an awesome choice, as would any MC, even if it costs a thousand points.

onnotangu
10-04-2006, 17:35
i've never had a screamer killer make it into combat..at least one that made it and did anything without dying horribly.

Wraithbored
10-04-2006, 17:39
I'd let you because I always play friendly of course I'd like to have a similar privilege in the shape of my Eldar Sparow light transport.

azimaith
11-04-2006, 01:37
Yeha i'm not sure why everyone thinks MC is so amazing. Monstrous creature is basically power weapon +2d6 vehicle pen in CC with disadvantages against shooting.

Heres an example. One unit of CSM marines, can infiltrate, has 8 normal attacks and 4 pfist attacks at strength 9 all with 3+ saves, and with 5 wounds to save. 128 pts.

Now lets take a carnifex with a similar set up.
Adrenals for then 4Ws, like marines, reinforced chitin for the 5 wounds, 2 talons for the 4 attacks. 120 points.

Note how the carnifex, for nearly the same points is missing 8 normal non-denying attacks at init 4, and the ability to infiltrate.
Both groups deny armor saves, they get the same strength of 9 in battle. Yet one gets more attacks and can deploy closer for just barely more points.

Sotec
11-04-2006, 05:06
How about a "Feel no pain" upgrade? I feel that fex's can die too easily to massed plasma and lascannon fire. 30 points would seem about right.

Cheers!
Sotec

emperorattack
11-04-2006, 06:21
i would not allow it

starlight
11-04-2006, 07:44
Shut up you!:p

Well at least provide some reasons.:eyebrows:

azimaith
11-04-2006, 20:29
FNP doesn't really adress anything important for the fex. Bonded carapace and reinforced carapace will deal with plasma. (Making it a 4+ to wound with 5 wounds.)

As for lascannons, its kind of what they're for. I'd far prefer an invulerable save for dealing with powerfists.

Tadite
11-04-2006, 20:52
Then tell me why practically everyone agrees that a close combat carnifex that is not an elite choice is a waste of points.

It is not because of the looks people field gunfexes and dakkafexes instead of screamer killers.



The Carnie isn't a CC unit its a shooty unit.

For what it is its one of the best shooty units in the game.

Why would you want to have more then that?



Azimaiths suggestion does not make these already effective carnifex configurations any better. What it does do is give a small boost to a configuration rarely used.

You can't just state hell, it is a monstous creature, so it is way powerfull enough anyway. Following that logic, the Nightbringer would be an awesome choice, as would any MC, even if it costs a thousand points.


They don't need a boost. The nids are by far the best book in the game. Why give more to someone who already has almost everything you could want?

azimaith
11-04-2006, 21:06
The carnie isn't a cc unit you say?
So I suppose I was wrong in thinking a model with *19* options that only affect close combat and 8 that are for ranged (including TL variants and spore cysts) was a close combat unit.

The reason a carnifex isn't used as a cc unit, and one of the only reasons, is that its so slow it never gets there.

Tadite
11-04-2006, 22:38
The carnie isn't a cc unit you say?
So I suppose I was wrong in thinking a model with *19* options that only affect close combat and 8 that are for ranged (including TL variants and spore cysts) was a close combat unit.

The reason a carnifex isn't used as a cc unit, and one of the only reasons, is that its so slow it never gets there.


Lots of units that opinions that aren't all that good. Just because the Carnie has a whole host of choices that it doesn't need doesn't mean it should be enhanced!

Heck the vaste majority of the 'nid opinions in generial are terrable. But thats only because the best 'nid lists are those that use cheap units not those who try to make a gaunt as expensive as a marine...

Same goes with TMC. Its the cheap ones that are the best not the ones who are as expensive as a Land Raider.

azimaith
11-04-2006, 22:52
Lots of units that opinions that aren't all that good. Just because the Carnie has a whole host of choices that it doesn't need doesn't mean it should be enhanced!

It actually does. Just like they enhanced tau devilfish sensor spines for its useless ability to detect hidden deployment in earlier versions.



Heck the vaste majority of the 'nid opinions in generial are terrable. But thats only because the best 'nid lists are those that use cheap units not those who try to make a gaunt as expensive as a marine...

The vast majority is not terrible. Just because the options are there doesn't mean you should use them all at once. But at the very least they should be usable.



Same goes with TMC. Its the cheap ones that are the best not the ones who are as expensive as a Land Raider.
[/quote]
I can get a screamer killer for 113 points, yet its not as useful as a dakkafex because the dakkafex has range, the SK will never get into CC.

They aren't that good because the platform can't get into assault. Thats why the enhanced carnifex idea is there. The carnifex doesn't simply have a host of choices, it has an overwhelmingly large choice of close combat biomorphes, more than double that of ranged biomorphs. The carnifex was supposed to be a close combat monster, the options available to it indicate that, but its not, because its too slow.

The fact that it has so much unusable potential is a travesty.

Eversor
12-04-2006, 11:43
The Carnie isn't a CC unit its a shooty unit.

The traditional Carnifex was very much a close combat unit. It was fast, it was deadly and it was hard to destroy. A living battering ram (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/tyranids/carnifex/images/us-carnifex-2-1.gif) that crumbled fortress walls and wrestled with tanks. I'm not sure why, but that changed, and many of us who remember the Screamer Killer of old would like to see their glory restored.

If I had my way, Carnifexes wouldn't have many shooting options at all. That's what Warriors should be for.

Scythe
12-04-2006, 12:23
The Carnie isn't a CC unit its a shooty unit.

For what it is its one of the best shooty units in the game.

Why would you want to have more then that?

Like others said, this is just wrong. The carnifex has always been a living battling ram, an unstoppable close combat beast, not a shooty unit. Sure those shooty attacks are nice, but the original image of the carnifex is a monster storming at you smashing everything before it apart.



They don't need a boost. The nids are by far the best book in the game. Why give more to someone who already has almost everything you could want?

Erhm, any specific reasons why? I think most people on warseer will disagree with you here. Nids are not bad, but they have some big weak points in their list.

azimaith
12-04-2006, 14:26
This is exactly what i'm saying, were not even arguing the effectiveness of gunfexes, were arguing the original purpose of the carnifex and how it could be restored to what its *supposed* to be. Not a glorified gun platform.

According to GW a carnifex is:

The Carnifex is a living engine of destruction evolved for use in shock assaults, space ship boarding actions, and massed battles where it can smash through almost any obstacle, whether it is a defensive line, enemy tanks, or a fortified position. The assault of these creatures is terrifying to behold – a primeval force that smashes men and vehicles aside like children’s toys.

A Carnifex may be included in your Tyranid army as a Heavy Support choice.
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/tyranids/catalog/carnifex.htm

Hard to smash men and vehicles aside like toys, do shock assaults, or smash through fortified posisition when you can't actually get there before the battle ends, isn't it.

russian
12-04-2006, 19:34
Yeha i'm not sure why everyone thinks MC is so amazing. Monstrous creature is basically power weapon +2d6 vehicle pen in CC with disadvantages against shooting.

Heres an example. One unit of CSM marines, can infiltrate, has 8 normal attacks and 4 pfist attacks at strength 9 all with 3+ saves, and with 5 wounds to save. 128 pts.

Now lets take a carnifex with a similar set up.
Adrenals for then 4Ws, like marines, reinforced chitin for the 5 wounds, 2 talons for the 4 attacks. 120 points.

Note how the carnifex, for nearly the same points is missing 8 normal non-denying attacks at init 4, and the ability to infiltrate.
Both groups deny armor saves, they get the same strength of 9 in battle. Yet one gets more attacks and can deploy closer for just barely more points.

points costs are not comparable between armys, there the cost for that army, something equally as good could be cheaper more expensive its the value of its worth for said army


as a faster carnifex, for playtesting yes,

but after that this varient probs not main reason being you should easily be able to get it into combat, being slow is its weakness to allow people to shoot it, you want it in combat, tie up units with gaunts and the such for the fex to finnish of

russian
12-04-2006, 19:38
Hard to smash men and vehicles aside like toys, do shock assaults, or smash through fortified posisition when you can't actually get there before the battle ends, isn't it.

well most of the time u set up 12" in and then your on a 48" board that means by turn 3 you should be in range to charge and quite a few armys would have already moved towards you, also most gaunts will be in charge range by turn 2 meaning they will tie up the enemy aswell, gaunts canrt hurt a warithlord but they can sure hold it up till something big or with rending weapons can hit it

Tadite
13-04-2006, 03:07
This is all just a 3rd edition argument.

In 4th edition shooty wins. Its far to hard to be a assault army in the days of 25% terran and easy to destroy tanks.

So lots of units/armies that were once all about the assault have turned into shooty units instead.

Why not the Carnie?

Anyway just use this list and win your games...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14830&page=8

Dyrnwyn
13-04-2006, 04:25
This is all just a 3rd edition argument.

In 4th edition shooty wins. Its far to hard to be a assault army in the days of 25% terran and easy to destroy tanks.

So lots of units/armies that were once all about the assault have turned into shooty units instead.

Why not the Carnie?

Anyway just use this list and win your games...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14830&page=8

This isn't a third edition arguement, it's an argument about how to get use out of the 70% of the options available to the Carnifex that are essentially useless at the moment. As has been mentioned multiple times, if the Carnifex was truly intended to be a weapons platform and not a close-combat death-machine, you'd think it would have been given more shooting weapons. as it stands, 70% of the weapons available to it are CC based, and never get used unless someone else assaults you. Seeing how much use they get on the table, they get even less use, as people will outfit the fex with guns that actually DO get used.

It's not that the Carnifex has turned from a barrelling locomotive of CC death into a gun platform. In the fluff, it's still a CC monster, it is intended to be a CC monster as reflected by the codex options for it, but with it's speed, it NEVER GETS INTO COMBAT, and thus, is never, ever taken to be a CC monster, because such a configuration is a waste of a heavy slot.

For the record, I'd let my opponent field one of these "Rampagers." Seems fluffy, and would finally give me a reason to respect Carnifexes instead of laughing them off and moving out of the way.

Scythe
13-04-2006, 11:56
Anyway just use this list and win your games...

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14830&page=8

Giving an army list isn't really an argument...