PDA

View Full Version : Warriors of Chaos- Monster Help



Kjata
05-08-2011, 08:46
So, I'm running roughly:

Wizard Lord with lore of heavans
Wizard with lore of death

17 Tzeentch Warriors with sword and board
18 Khorne Warriors with Halberds

7 Tzeentch Knights with blasted standard (I think, the shooting ward one)
4 Khorne Ogres with great weapons

Hellcannon

I'm thinking about adding 50 Khorne Marauders with great weapons, 6 warriors to each unit, bumping the knights up to 10, and a lord on a deamonic mount.

Last game I played, at 2k, I was playing against Wood Elves. My Knights wiped out half the board, and my Khorne warriors wiped out the other half. His treeman, however, killed my Tzeentch warriors, ogres, the hellcannon, and both wizards. To tell the truth, my warriors fled as a charge reaction off the board when they failed to rally, and took the Death wizard with them. My Lord ran from the tree, and was eventually ran down. It clubbed and stomped my cannon to death in 2 rounds. The game ended with me having my heavily shot up knights and warriors, and him with the tree and a couple of bowmen units that escaped from combat.

The fact is, the treean obliterated me, getting almost 700% of its points back and obliterating my battle line. This made me realize, I am woefully unequipped to deal with monsters. I'm liking the lore of shadow, and kitting out a lord with the hellfire sword. However, I did ome rough math, and realized the treeman would squash my lord taking 3-5 wounds with a bit of luck on my part.

So, what can I do with Warriors of Chaos to deal with monsters?

stiggie
05-08-2011, 09:23
give a hero ASF and glaive of putrefection (i think its that)? S2 T2 treeman ftw?

or tarpit with a tzeentch warshrine then countercharge..

flickering fire in tzeentch lore is flaming (double wounds on it)

or get book of secrets on a hero and give it book of secrets for a fire spell.

a few suggestions

Kjata
05-08-2011, 09:35
I'm not just looking for answers for the Treeman, mostly monsters in general. I hate list tailoring, I like take all comers. I'm a huge MTG junkie, and I can't show up at a tournament with a deck designed to beat a certain deck, I have to play against the meta game in a whole. The Warhammer meta seems to like mages, blocks of infantry, and monsters. I can handle mages and infantry with what I have, its just a treeman, hydra, or HPA will wreck my battleline.

The glaive is interesting, and I have played with the ruby ring of ruin.

Tayrod
05-08-2011, 10:46
The glaive has worked wonders for my warriors of chaos army. It's wonderfully cheap for what it does. Keep in mind however that if you're up against the Hell Pit, RAW seems to indicate that it wont suffer (much) for the loss of strength as it has special attacks at a given strenght (there was alot of debate about this though, since it has an ability to boost it's basic strenght +1, and the FAQ indicated this would also boost the special attacks).

Djekar
05-08-2011, 13:48
The three monsters you mention specifically that wreck your line are either flammable or regenerate which makes the flaming banner, or lore of fire, or flickering fire all very viable. I don't see that as list tailoring, I see that as knowing the weaknesses of your list and planning accordingly.

As noted, glaive-ing them might work alright - I have problems getting past the saves on them whenever I try though. Putting some warhounds in to mess with their charges could work too - that way you can keep them off of your combat blocks until you are ready to deal with them en masse - which is not good no matter what kind of monster you are!

GenerationTerrorist
05-08-2011, 14:17
How about a Shaggoth with a Great Weapon? I'd fancy it to take out a Treeman or other Non-Regenerating monsters in a straight 1-1 fight.

The answer to the others may be a unit of Knights with the Flaming Banner.

Other than that, I am actually pretty stumped as to what to do! I sometimes struggle against big things myself. Avoidance is usually the best tactic. Sadly, that is not always an option!

Odin
05-08-2011, 14:37
I do find some of the tougher monsters surprisingly hard to deal with with WOC. Sphinxes are a nightmare because having S5 or 6 makes no difference - what you need is numbers or S8+.

For the regenerating monsters (and indeed all others), the Hellfire Sword combined with the Potion of Strength will kill pretty much anything. But you only get that strength bonus once, and it is expensive, and you won't get a ward save, so it's a bit of overkill perhaps.

Shaggoth with great weapon is a decent option, especially as he's 225 points in our gaming group's houserules, which is only slightly overpriced.

Fire magic is obviously good against regenerating beasties, and shadow is pretty good against high Toughness ones.

BaSe
05-08-2011, 16:45
I rely on the lore if shadow. If in lucky mindrazor works wonders however if not lowering their strength/ weapon skill etc also helps to win via resolution.

puckus10
06-08-2011, 01:58
Tzeentch lord with disc, shield, daemonsword, and collar of khorne should take him out in 1 or 2 rounds.

Kjata
06-08-2011, 05:02
Alright, i think i'm going to try the glaive and lore of shadows, and maybe the flaming banner oif my halberd unit if I can fit it in.

Noght
08-08-2011, 03:23
I lost a Treeman to a Unit of Horrors who rolled 2 dice with Flickering Fire. That's right a 285 Monster to an old book 4+ to cast Magical Fire attack, potential 7 wounds at Strength 7....so fair.
Battle Report Here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313246

Seriously, a 10 point banner wreaks the Wood Elf Heavy Hitters. Any unit of Chaos Warriors with the Flaming Banner roll Treekin and Treemen (or Hydras and Hellpits for that matter).

Hellcannon is a Strength 10 hit right?
Infernal Gateway (you only need 3 dice with a lvl 4 Tzeentch Lord) averages Strength 7 attacks, which rolls most monsters.

WOC are perfectly capable of handling most Monsters. Heck they are the Space Marines of WFB.

Noght

LordoftheBrassThrone
08-08-2011, 08:21
Lore of shadows ftw. Pit of shades works great vs sphinxes, mindrazor can let you destroy anything. I also hope for a direct hit from my hellcannon (s10, d6 wounds), but as backup I take 4 dragon ogres with great weapons. Theyre great against anything.

puckus10
09-08-2011, 01:48
Since book of secrets makes someone a lvl 1 sorcerer if he has a lore does he have to take the accommodating lore?

LordoftheBrassThrone
19-08-2011, 11:50
What do you mean, for a Mark? No, it states that he must use fire, shadow or death, so he must use one of these. Tzeentch still gives +1 to cast though, so kinda still worth it.

Jack of Blades
19-08-2011, 12:04
It actually states he uses the lores of fire, shadow or death, not that he must use them... but I've already had this argument. It comes down to rules for sorcerers with marks vs rules for the item. It's up to you what takes precedence; ''a sorcerer with a mark always uses that mark's lore'' or an item saying that its wielder ''uses the lore of fire, shadow or death''. Not trying to start an argument here because it's really up to interpretation.

WoC FAQ:

Page 115 – Book of Secrets, second paragraph
Change to “Treat the bearer as a Level 1 Wizard*, who may use
the Lore of Fire, Lore of Shadow or Lore of Death. He may
not attempt to channel. If he ever casts a spell with irresistible
force he must roll D6+1 rather than 2D6 on the Miscast
table.”

* Wizard = Sorcerer according to page 106, it's just a descriptive term for wizards who follow the Chaos gods.

WoC page 106:

''Sorcerers with a Mark of Chaos always generate spells from the lore appropriate to that mark; for example, a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch generates spells from the Lore of Tzeentch.''

Page 120 Chaos Sorcerer entry:

''A Sorcerer is a Level 1 Wizard. He may choose his spells from the Lores of Death, Fire or, if he has a Mark of Chaos, must choose from the Lore appropriate to that mark.''


The argument I've seen against using your mark's lore with the Book is that the general rules for marks and Sorcerers don't apply to the item since it has its own rules, and the item doesn't state that you must use your mark's lore, so you don't.

Make of this what you want to.

snottlebocket
19-08-2011, 12:10
It actually states he uses the lores of fire, shadow or death, not that he must use them... but I've already had this argument. It comes down to rules for sorcerers with marks vs rules for the item. It's up to you what takes precedence; ''a sorcerer with a mark always uses that mark's lore'' or an item saying that its wielder ''uses the lore of fire, shadow or death''. Not trying to start an argument here because it's really up to interpretation.

If magic items didn't take precedence over model rules there wouldn't be much point in a lot of them. Their entire purpose is modifying model rules.

Jack of Blades
19-08-2011, 12:19
List another example where a conflict like this happens then if there wouldn't be much point in ''a lot'' of them? :p it's not like the item becomes pointless because you use your mark's lore anyway, nor do you even need to mark your model, so even if you did have to use your own mark's lore I don't see what's so point-breaking about that.

snottlebocket
19-08-2011, 12:57
List another example where a conflict like this happens then if there wouldn't be much point in ''a lot'' of them? :p it's not like the item becomes pointless because you use your mark's lore anyway, nor do you even need to mark your model, so even if you did have to use your own mark's lore I don't see what's so point-breaking about that.

There's rather a lot of weapons that alter the users stats for instance. Changing your weapon skill to 10 supercedes the models rules just as much as the book of secrets does.

Jack of Blades
19-08-2011, 15:32
There's rather a lot of weapons that alter the users stats for instance. Changing your weapon skill to 10 supercedes the models rules just as much as the book of secrets does.

How do you draw the paralell between something that rather blatantly modifies a character's stats and two paragraphs of rules competing to supercede the other? that's a big simplification.

Thing is they could have worded this a lot better, they could've said either ''may use lores Z X C even if marked'' or ''may use lores Z X C unless marked''. Now they either trusted that you will see that you must use your mark's lore anyway or they thought everyone will understand that because it's an item, the rules for marks and lores vanishes into thin air.

I don't really care whether it lets you use your mark's lore or not but I can't see what makes the Book an exception to the mark+lore rules. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying I can't see it. Feels more like ''everyone says X, so Y must be false'' than ''X is right, so Y is false as shown here''

Whatever...

TheOneHawk
19-08-2011, 23:04
What does this have to do with monster slaying? Didn't we already have this argument?

Jack of Blades
19-08-2011, 23:14
Take a unit of Chaos Knights of Khorne with the Banner of Eternal Flame and put an Exalted Hero in there.

Exalted Hero - 174/210 Points
Sword of Anti-Heroes
Potion of Strength
Mark of Khorne
Chaos Steed/Juggernaut of Khorne

You'll get 5 S5 attacks that negate the Treekins' ward saves and cause double wounds, if your unit so much as gets in contact with a Treeman you will have 6 S6 attacks. You have the Potion of Strength for when you aren't in contact with a Treeman.

He alone would be deadly - combine this with magic and your Knights, it should see them turned into furnace wood in no time. Every single Knight gets 3 S5 attacks that cause double wounds and negate their ward save.

If you really want to guarantee success, do this with a Lord. But I recommend using an Exalted Hero unless you can also fit in a Level 4 Sorcerer with your Lord.

Akkaryn
20-08-2011, 11:29
I Don't have any books in front of me, but I'm sure the Banner of Eternal flame doesn't work with magical weapons so wouldn't work with the Knights unless you gave them lances.

ashc
20-08-2011, 11:44
Drogres with great weapons used to do the trick, but that was start of 7th edition.

A character with the Daemonsword? - One of my favourites.

Jack of Blades
20-08-2011, 13:14
I Don't have any books in front of me, but I'm sure the Banner of Eternal flame doesn't work with magical weapons so wouldn't work with the Knights unless you gave them lances.

That's right - I forgot it. Just means you put it in a unit of Chaos warriors with halberds instead :)

Eta
20-08-2011, 22:22
It clubbed and stomped my cannon to death in 2 rounds.

Remember that you cannot stomp other monsters, the Treeman vs. Hellcannon fight should have gone on a bit longer than 2 rounds.

sulla
21-08-2011, 02:16
I usually don't bother with monsters vs WoC. Between the double hellcannons and gateway (7s7 hits on average) and the s5 warriors and marauders, he's lucky to make it past the first turn. Even if it does, it will still be cut down by the troops in combat in 2-3 phases.

popisdead
23-08-2011, 20:27
Ogres are terribad.

4 Dragon Ogres w/ GWs are better in multiple ways. Farther charge distance, better Stomp, S7 (wounds Treeman on 3s), 16 wounds, 4+ save, WS 4 (WS is huge this edition, don't ignore it).