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Fieos
05-08-2011, 18:21
As I'm building lists for upcoming tournaments I keep looking at lists and you just seldom see generals leading their armies from their codex monstrosities. A big contributor to that is template weapons.

I like seeing the well-painted centerpiece general on monster leading his army fearlessly. I play Empire, VC, and HE and I've been pondering how to see more of those centerpieces in the mix. I think lone models should require a BS test to determine if a template weapon can fire at them. So you declare your shooting, roll a BS test, and if it passes then you may fire as normal. Cannons not randomizing hits and more accurate than sniper rifles bring a certain sadness to the game for me. The ability for some BS2 slouch on a trebuchet to have a chance to lob a rock and wipe out a general and his monster after it just flew halfway across the field of battle seems a little off to me.

As an Empire player I understand the dependency on cannons to bring down the big threats, but with the fairly cheap costs of cannons in many armies and the powerful trebuchets I think they too easily bring down 500+ point units that add beauty to the table and flavor to the game.

If that change seems overpowered perhaps it could be offset by making those war machines no longer destroyed on a misfire of a 1+, but rather just not able to shoot this turn or the next?

I'm sure I'm not coming up with any new ideas but searching this idea wasn't real fruitful without wading through a lot of drama between useful contributions.

Edit!

A different rule approach that might work as well. Perhaps you always hit the monster with the template but only include the character on a 5+ (similar to allocating wounds from BS shooty)

eron12
05-08-2011, 22:00
but with the fairly cheap costs of cannons in many armies


You mean the two armies that have cannons? (3 if you include the hellcannon) I don't know about the Empire, but most dwarf cannons will run to more than 100 points easily.

I understand that you like the idea of centerpiece monsters, but there are lots of people who are happy the game has moved away from monsters to blocks of troops.

Fieos
05-08-2011, 22:12
Skaven Warp-Lightning Cannons are also out there. That's a solid 5 armies (Empire, Brets, Dwarves, WoC, and Skaven) with template shooty that auto-hits both mount and rider and doing multiple wounds.

With rules like steadfast and so much of 8th Edition rules encouraging infantry blocks maybe those mounts should just be significantly reduced in cost?

If you think about it, it is more difficult to hit a monster/lone model with a Hockland Long Rifle than a cannon.

Fieos
05-08-2011, 22:24
Skaven, WoC, Empire, Dwarves, and Brets all have template weapons that can quickly wreck a character + ridden monster. As the 8th Edition rules have changed to favor blocks of troops maybe the monsters then need to be significantly reduced in point cost? When you consider the risks of putting out a 300+ point character on a 200+ point monster, it doesn't make sense in most tournament settings.

A Hockland Long Rifle has a more challenging time hitting a monster/lone model than a cannon.

Razaan
05-08-2011, 22:24
I prefer the templates to only hit the rider on a 5+ instead of auto-hitting both. Cannons sniping my Grey Seer off the bell.... Specifically Fieos' cannons sniping my Grey Seer off the bell have left a sour taste in my mouth with the new cannon rules.

His ideas about cannons/stone throwers needing a BS check would impact more than just Empire and Dwarves. Skaven have a cannon that does D6 wounds. The Bretonnian Trebuchet is Str 10 with D6 wounds. Plus Hellcannons, etc.

Fieos - Would you expect this change to apply to flame thrower weapons as well?

Fieos
05-08-2011, 22:28
From a common sense (visualizing the game) I think it makes sense for the flame thrower template attacks to hit both. It still makes those flame thrower templates very powerful though. Maybe keep that around but remove the LoS rules for them? (I assume you mean your Skaven)

T10
05-08-2011, 22:29
With a 25% points allowance Lord characters I feel comfortable investing in a monster and rider - this usually leaves room for a second Lord character to act as the General.

Fieos
05-08-2011, 22:37
T10, you must play pretty high point values to pull that off. Most tournaments don't run the points to allow for that kind of thing. Our local escalation league started at 500 points and is going to wrap up at around 2000.

Yrrdead
05-08-2011, 22:40
If you are looking for something for tournaments than it is pretty easy. The TO's just need to reward taking monsters/monster mounts. Their are a variety of ways to accomplish this. And I'm sure that there are tournaments out there that already do this.

Changing the actual rules is not (imo) a good way to go about this.

Fieos
05-08-2011, 22:42
Yrrdead, what tournament incentives have you seen to encourage monster/mounts?

Yrrdead
05-08-2011, 22:46
Take a look at the 1st minute of this. Vaul describes the rules for this tourney which seems like a decent way to encourage it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/vaulsc?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/15/Ei1OfWJof1g

Razaan
05-08-2011, 22:46
Incentive for taking monsters? My dual HPA list would love to be rewarded! Instead, people just pout.

Fieos
05-08-2011, 22:49
Incentive for taking monsters? My dual HPA list would love to be rewarded! Instead, people just pout.

For taking characters on monstrous mounts. Besides in a year I've not seen your HPAs do much other than make YOU pout.

Razaan
05-08-2011, 22:55
Only against you for some weird reason. Anyways, YAY for thread derailment!

T10
06-08-2011, 10:24
T10, you must play pretty high point values to pull that off. Most tournaments don't run the points to allow for that kind of thing. Our local escalation league started at 500 points and is going to wrap up at around 2000.

For my part most games I play are not tournament games.

If you can afford to field a fully kitted out Lord on a monster, then most armies can afford two Lords with basic equipment and a monster mount for one of them for about the same cost.

It's surely a matter of wether you are willing to spend your points that way.

Von Wibble
06-08-2011, 19:28
As I'm building lists for upcoming tournaments I keep looking at lists and you just seldom see generals leading their armies from their codex monstrosities. A big contributor to that is template weapons.

I like seeing the well-painted centerpiece general on monster leading his army fearlessly. I play Empire, VC, and HE and I've been pondering how to see more of those centerpieces in the mix. I think lone models should require a BS test to determine if a template weapon can fire at them. So you declare your shooting, roll a BS test, and if it passes then you may fire as normal. Cannons not randomizing hits and more accurate than sniper rifles bring a certain sadness to the game for me. The ability for some BS2 slouch on a trebuchet to have a chance to lob a rock and wipe out a general and his monster after it just flew halfway across the field of battle seems a little off to me.

As an Empire player I understand the dependency on cannons to bring down the big threats, but with the fairly cheap costs of cannons in many armies and the powerful trebuchets I think they too easily bring down 500+ point units that add beauty to the table and flavor to the game.

If that change seems overpowered perhaps it could be offset by making those war machines no longer destroyed on a misfire of a 1+, but rather just not able to shoot this turn or the next?

I'm sure I'm not coming up with any new ideas but searching this idea wasn't real fruitful without wading through a lot of drama between useful contributions.

Edit!

A different rule approach that might work as well. Perhaps you always hit the monster with the template but only include the character on a 5+ (similar to allocating wounds from BS shooty)

Since a cannon isn't a template weapon I've lost you here - how does your rule change affect them?

The fact is that other than cannons, the largest threat to griffon riders and so on is massed S4 missile fire (Stone throwers tend to miss).

Therefore a possible alternative set of rules

- When a cannon fires at a flyer, it only hits the model if the shot hits before bouncing - not after.

- All models shooting at fliers have their range reduced by 12".

This won't protect HPAs, or even big bosses on spiders, but the griffon riders, manticores, dragon mages etc do benefit - and they are the ones in need of it.

T10
06-08-2011, 20:08
FYI, if a cannon scores a hit on a monster model then the monster and any rider(s) each take a hit.

Lex
08-08-2011, 20:55
Since a cannon isn't a template weapon I've lost you here - how does your rule change affect them?


It is a template "albeit a special kind".