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Mage
05-08-2011, 19:23
I have been playing Daemons since Storm of Chaos, and while I had my Daemon army down to a tee with the last edition, I haven't gotten a change to play much of the current one. I tried my last ed army, and it was ok, but felt it could do better. After mucking around with a modified versino of said list, I abandoned using a bloodthirster in favour of the great unclean one. While I have dabbled in using a horde of bloodletters, I find them to unwieldy to use effectively.

So, this is the list I intend to take to tournaments:

Great Unclean One
Breath Weapon upgrade
Always strike last in base contact upgrade

Herald of Tzeentch with Lore of Life x2

Herald of Khorne with armour of Khorne and BSB

Herald of Nurgle with breath weapon and always strikes last upgrade

3 units of 20 bloodletters with full command

10 horrors

20 plague bearers with icon of re-roll wound rolls and full command


I used this list against a regular of my own gaming group, who is pretty good with his own tournament army. Considering he is so good, and that I am out of practice and used this list for the first time, I was happy to pull of a draw with a 50pt or so vp difference.

wolvemaster
06-08-2011, 00:59
Hey, I am loving the Great Unclean One, I don't see them a whole lot on the tables I play on.

The first thing I need to mention is that I am a huge fan of the horde of Bloodletters. They are very dangerous and can really benefit from the buffs that life magic allow. I understand how that big of a unit might seem unwieldy considering that you are used to the old edition, but maneuverability is not as much of an issue as it was in 7th edition. The horde will give you a huge boost in combat potential, and the larger unit will be more likely to survive the entire game. In an edition where you don't get the points for a unit until you kill the last man, that is a big deal. I think as you play you will find that the horde more effective than the smaller units. Keep your mind open; try it out in a few games.

Also I think you might reconsider your magic setup. With how magic works out in 8th edition, you are at a disadvantage in the magic phases, because if your opponent has a level four he will get and additional +2 to cast and dispel. While this does not seem like a big disadvantage at first, it can really cause you to burn you dispel dice fast and can kill your magic phase. Same thing with the horrors; I don't really think that it is worth having just 10 horrors. All it gives you is the lvl 1 Tzeentch spell and and their channeling roll. It is more than likely that you will be spending your power dice on the lore of life spells. Many people like the large lvl 4 block of horrors. It offers a good set of offensive spells, and in conjunction with a herald of Tzeentch, a fairly survivable block. Again in 8th addition, you don't get the points for a unit until you you kill every model. 40 Horrors with a 4+ ward is a hard thing to finish especially if you keep them behind your other units. Of course your other option is to make your great unclean one a lvl 4. If you did this I might consider changing at least one of your heralds to shadow so as to take advantage of the Nurgle spells based off toughness. You can throw the -D3 toughness on a unit then hit them with Nurgle spells. The lore also offers some valuable de-buffs that are very effective with the Bloodletters.

The last thing I might consider is adding in a little chaff to deal with warmachines or to divert enemy units. Good options for this are fiends and furies (What am I thinking, this guy played in 7th he knows all about diverting).

If you were to put in a large horror block I would drop the Herald of Nurgle and his cronies, then put in 40ish horrors and as many fiends as I can fit in. one big unit and then a unit of one. I think it comes out to something like a unit of 4 and a unit of 1.

If you were to bump up the GUO, then just drop the horrors and pay the equivalent amount of points to make the guy a lvl 4.

Now for the disclaimer:

I do not maintain that there is only one play this army, nor do I maintain that I am a better or more experience warhammer player than you. I am just trying to help out a fellow Daemons player. I respect you greatly from your experience, and I look forward to your response because I am more or likely to learn a thing or two.

-Dan

HalfBlood
06-08-2011, 03:16
I love the many units of core, but i fear that they are too small for the point size. I would make 2 units of 30 bloodletters.

Also the pink horror unit size is too small, i fear they will do little in this game. Maybe remove them?

Now my logic in games 2000 and up is that my opponent will have a level 4 wizard. Unfortuantely we cannot have a level 4 unless we deck out a Greater Daemon. So it will be hard to cast spell unless you irresiable force them. Now ofcourse you can always roll high, but chances are slimer. I can be wrong since you are running 4 level 2s you may be able to pull of some magic. With this logic i would remove 1 HoT and replace it with an HoK. Since HoT are more expensive you should have enough points to give your other HoT a disc

With the points left over I would spend them on flesh hounds or Flamers. Seeing as both of these units for a squad of 6 (210) will be a pain for your opponent. Flamers are a pretty amazing shooty unit for 210 points averaging 18 shots(if you roll all 3s) Flesh hounds make pretty good flankers as well.

Now with i have said you list is still solid. You have the PB squad in the middle with the HON with banner. This is suppose to be the melee block. You then have 1 squad of BL to the left of it and one squad of BL to the right. The job is to have the PB get charged by opponent then flank with BL. Then if you have flamers you can just shoot at enemies as they advance.

thesheriff
06-08-2011, 10:46
I second the bigger units motion.

I think you need to keep bloodletters to hordes. 2 of 30 woudl be good. Or, one of 40, and put the rest of the points into a bigger horror unit.

Having 2 HoT in one 10 man horror unit is risky IMO. They need to either be flying or in a bigger unit.

thesheriff

Mage
06-08-2011, 21:49
@ wolvemaster

I like the 10 wounded GD a lot, and I find the breath weapon helps if he overextends himself from a support unit. It's a bit boring seeing 'thirsters all the time. I am emotinally attached to the model because I won it when I was 10 in a competition. Only fantasy model I ever won.

I'm half on half going horde, but a lot of people are keen on the idea. i guess I just need to learn the movement rules better. Whenever I do get the charge off with the horde I get great results.

I am at a disadvantage against armies with Slaan and particularly powerful l4 mages (Elves and Vampires). It is a massive disadvantage for me and a major downfall of my lists. I have this detailed further down in my post.

The horrorw blovk is tempting, but I'd rather use a L4 GD and spend the points form the block on more melee units.

I'll take on board your advice about the toughness lowering spells and combos with them.

I have 3 fiends at home to paint, so preparing them for a list is good motivation to paint them! .

I like the PBs. With the herald and re-roll banner they fended off a block of saurus with spears for severl turns, who had T8 most of the time due to my bad magic defence.

I appreciate all your input and friendly advice!

As a ps note: the re-roll wounds banner works awesome on the PB, and with a breath weapon in the unit, re-rolling wounds against high toughess is great, not to mention poisened attacks working. I plan to try out a bit block of PBs with 2 heralds with the breath weapon and use them in close combat. I also got Birona's timewarp off a few times on them for extra attakcs and they gradually chewed threw the T8 saurus. Regenration is great too if someone has (like one of my regulars in our group) a tooled up Vampire (or something) with the 'other tricksters shard' (I think, the item forcing the re-roll of successful ward saves).

Aside from this tournament list, I am going to test out a Nurgle one with Epidemius for fun.

@ HalfBlood

love the many units of core, but i fear that they are too small for the point size. I would make 2 units of 30 bloodletters.

I like loads of regular daemons, tends to scare the crap out of people! The pscyhological effect on your opponent with so many daemons can give an edge.

They tend not to do to much, but I am fond of the little guys. They are a nice meat sheild for the heralds. I'm thinking of using a larger unit (got 60 horrors at home).

Your logic is right, and I tend to struggle somewhat against armies with a level 4. Level 2s just cannot counter their magic well enough, and I find that lack of access to the new magic items can be a hindrance.

I find there is a conundrum with a level 4 daemon, which is the only way to have a level 4 wizard in the army, unfortunately. You have to deck out a greater daemon, but is a level 4 wizard of nurgle worth it, I mean, the +4 dispell/cast bonus is great, and the spells are good too, but I think its a case of horse before the cart with a really good spell caster and throwing him into a combat, or a big target for cannons and losing your general and spellcaster. Not meaning to mix metaphor but I find it's a bit of putting all eggs in your basket. Not opposed to testing it though.

Another HoK would be nice, but I tend not to put HoTz on discs. I fell it makes them too fragile. I am tempted to put a magical banner on the BSB HoK.

I have plenty of flesh hound models (for anyone interested I did some Bloodletter Centaurs with Chaos hounds) and flamers, and do not hesitate on using the latter. Regarind hounds, I have not used them much in this edition, but on paper they just don't seem as good as last edition, but I could be wrong about this.

I like your idea with the plaguebearers and bloodletter pincer move.

@ the sheriff

The same Lizardman player I wzs facing said to go for thirty blocks as well. I can go for a hordre attack if I make it accross the board without too much damage. I can see it now: a horde of bloodletters with hatred form their herald charging as a horde. Awesome.

A bigger horror unit would be nice. Regarding the two heralds, it is risky, but I always seem to be able to take good care of them, so that doesen't worry me too much. I tend to keep them behind the main battle line casting buffs. A bigger unit would be nice.

wolvemaster
06-08-2011, 23:51
If you are struggling with enemy magic, you need that lvl 4. Another thing to consider is that you can get scrolls of your Heralds of Tzeentch. No matter how good your magic defense is, you will rarely stop every spell when you are up against something like Lizardmen, Vampires, etc. Just like in 7th edition, you need to know what to stop and what to let through.

The PB's sound great, but I have had little experience with them myself.

Good luck, your best bet is to keep trying new things and to figure out what you like.

P.S. I am not a huge fan of Flesh Hounds in the new edition, however Flamers have potential.

Mage
06-08-2011, 23:56
I do indeed need that level 4. Scrolls are pretty good, heplful with the lack of LV atm, and useful. Being on the defensive side in the magic phase you will always be the underdog without certain upgrades. It's always a tactical decision thing with judging spells.

I haven't had much with them either, but in one game I played that unit with the herald beat a unit of charging Cold One Knights with Malus Darkblade. My unit was near an alter of Kain and had frenzy, and I got bironas time warp off on them too. Did loads of damage.

It's still a learning phase chopping and changing, but I am enjoying it.

I do have 12 flamer models...

Mage
07-08-2011, 03:14
Hah! Just noticed something hilarious. I have the GuO upgraded to level 3! I forgot to put it in the list above, and used it as a LV 1 in the game I mentioned against the Lizardmen because I forgot my army list.

*Face to palm*

wolvemaster
07-08-2011, 13:47
Working with your original list, and based off of what we have already talked about, I came up with some modifications:

GUO
- Breath Weapon
- Always strike last upgrade
- lvl 4

HoT
- Master of Sorcery (Shadow maybe?)
- Scroll

HoK
-Armor of Khorne

Hok
-Armor of Khorne

HoN
- Breath Weapon

Blue Scribes

29 Bloodletters
-full command

29 Bloodletters
-full command

20 PB's
-full command

6 Flamers


A couple thoughts: With the GUO being a level 4 and the HoT knowing all the spells from a lore, I don't know that you want another HoT. The limiting factor in this situation is going to be power dice, because you will have 12 spells you can cast. The Blue Scribes will help this problem by giving you some extra dice every turn (this is only if you don't have a problem using special characters). The HoT can go in the flamers or walk around on his own, or you can drop something to put him on a disk. I think that the 2nd HoK and the Blue Scribes is a better Idea than the 2d HoT. The Hok's give a very big benefit to your Khorne units.

P.S. the bloodleters are only 29 to save points for the flamers and the heralds will bring them up to thirty.

thesheriff
07-08-2011, 14:23
Is the herakd of nurgle really necassary. I find he is only useful if you slap him with a bsb and make use of the T5, Regen he gets.

Dropping him, and the scribes will give you the points for anouther herald of tzeentch. And make them both fly. There no sense not to.

wolvemaster
07-08-2011, 22:47
The Herald of Nurgle, while the upgrade that he gives to the PB' is not as good as it was in 7th edition, is still useful, and his supplemental value is largely due to hi combat potential. His breath weapon and additional combat prowess really help the unit deal with dangerous foes.

Having another Herald of Tzeentch will add little value to the list. You already have too little power dice to be able to cast all your spells, and removing the source of extra power dice while adding in another wizard just gives you more spells that you can't cast anyway.

GenerationTerrorist
08-08-2011, 01:28
Merge the Bloodletters into a Horde of 50 and you have a full-on blending machine that will destroy anything that they face. Give them the +Charge banner. Make one of the MoK Heralds your BSB and put them in there too. Drop the other one.
With the saved points, bump up the Plagueberers a few. They are a proper Anvil unit so numbers will matter a bit as they won't dish out as much damage. They rely on Combat Res to win fights but are a pain in the **** to shift. Anchor an entire flank with this unit.
Not a fan of Blue Scribes, but will happily defer to others here who have more experience with them.
Great to see a GUC used rather than any of the other GD. He is so underrated by many. Great spells and a beast in Combat :-)

Mage
08-08-2011, 20:58
@ wolvemaster

Regarding the list:

I like the GUO, it makes up for the army’s weaknesses, but I think the upgrades you list bring it over the 25 % lord allocation for the army but 20 points.

Shadow is a good lore on the HoT: Shadow, Light and Life are my favourites. A scroll would help my army with magic defence.

I like the rest of the heralds, but never leave home without a BSB.

I’ve never used the Blue Scribes but hear they are good. I’d need to convert a model for them though. I’ll give their rules another read!

Love everything about the core choices, but I greatly value the re-roll on poisoned wounds, especially with the herald using the breath weapon in the unit.

As for the flamers, how can anyone go wrong with them? I have 12!

Regarding the notes:

I could drop a HoT. Power dice are always a problem for me, especially against HE and Lizardmen. Regarding special characters, most tournaments I go to tend to not allow them, but if the Blue Scribes bring something special to the list, I will include them. I’ll playtest them at some point. The HoK do wonders with the Khorne units, but I tend not to give my mages fly.


@ thesheriff

I find he makes the unit more offensive, and like the regeneration (I know people say he’s not as good as before, but I still wouldn’t look down on my nose at this ability. I find it useful, and it works for me, and most things don’t!  I will consider giving him a bsb.

Like I said above, I’m not a fan of flying heralds. I know people have said a few times that the horrors on their own are not great, but find the security of a unit better at the back as a bodyguard useful, where the HoT can buff units, and mind the rear rank if something like scouting chameleon skins come along, I have the option of flickering fire them.

I’m starting to think I don’t require another herald. Maybe last edition it might have been useful, but it seems to be the cart before the horse scenario with all the right spells but not enough power dice, and I couldn’t roll a successful channel to save my life.

Never the less, I appreciate the input. Regarding your sig, I have seen the horror of tesco and lived to tell the tale. Gave that company 3 years of my life.


@ wolvemaster (again!)

I like the regeneration due to stuff that can screw up ward saves all the same. I am thinking of using a horde of plagebearers to see how they will do. They might not be the best unit in the army, but every game I have used them, they haven’t been brilliant, but they always did well, and I had a hell of a lot of fun using them. The unit beating down Malus Darkblade and some cold one knights in one game, butchering a bunch of high elf knights in another, and munching a saurus horde with T8 from Lore of Life down to a hand full of models are all reason I use the unit.

I agree on the second magic herald.


@ generationterrorist

I like cider too!

A horde of 50 bloodletters?!? Daring, risky, crazy. I like it. Blending machine? That’s a portable woodchipper. Regarding the banner, I always roll p**s poor with it. Always. I do tend to use a MoK herald a BSB.

The plaguebearers could do with another rank I guess. I think the sheer annoyance they’ll cause an opponent is a good reason to keep them in the list, lol. I like the anchor suggestion.

I’m not sure about the Blue Scribes, but I am really into my Daemons, and will probably try a list based on each poster’s advice in this thread, or a mix of them.

I love the GuO. He does rock. I remember smashing a unit of Bloodknights with him at a tournament. Satisfying. The first spell on his lore is brilliant.


@ Everyone in general

I’ll probably have a game next week, as this week I am preparing my own 40 tournament at the weekend, and am too busy organising it to play. I will post the list I will use beforehand, then describe the game, and then my thoughts on the list, with a possible re-write. Thanks for all the input guys!

wolvemaster
11-08-2011, 00:13
Woops my bad, I am used to 2500 points and he is OK under that. All of your reasoning seems spot on. All I can tell you is to keep playing and figure out what you like.

Best of luck!

-Dan

Mage
11-08-2011, 20:33
Thanks! One idea I had was to use two heralds of Nurgle on Palanquins (not for this list) and give them both the breath weapon and the always strike alst, in a 6X4 block, or larger. With the bigger base size it means less, if any models in base contact can strike before me!