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The Anarchist
05-08-2011, 19:53
Well after years playing a wood elf force I've decided to shift to one of the other elven forces as part of a campagin with some friends. As a wood elf player I never really had the need or use for a cavalry charge. but if gona be playing the one of the other elven forces I've something of a desire for a glorious charge to break my enemy. but is this probable and possible so much in the 8th eddition?

I read everywhere that this is the eddition of large infantry units and short of the unusual breaking units with much other than large mosters or infantry blocks?
So in what way has the power of Cavalry been so neutured, and what are the varrious Warseer methods for overcoming the recent shift of large infantry units being the power?

Voss
05-08-2011, 20:10
It isn't dead. It just isn't sensible to charge straight into the front on a large infantry block anymore.

The days when elite cav could run down rank and file infantry with any thoughts to strategy or tactics is gone (and rightly so), and for some reason some people have problems adjusting to that.

Agoz
05-08-2011, 20:12
I think for the most part (brettonia being the possible exception) gone are the days when cavalry would form the main line of armies, now they have taken on a different, and in my opinion, more appropriate role, that of support, when they are used in tandem with an infantry anvil, they can be very effective. The infantry provides the ranks needed to break steadfast, and the flanking cav unit will provide the much needed combat res and wounds to win the combat. If you are using cav, try equipping them with things that don't only work in the first round of combat like spears or lances, for example, I've had some success with empire knights armed with great weapons. Cav is not dead in 8th, it just takes a little bit of tactical acumen to use correctly.

Zaszz
05-08-2011, 20:16
You didnt really answer the question about how to overcome that however. Basically now a days you can't rely on any equal points value of cavalry having a good shot at breaking a large infantry block to the front. So what you have to do is either have such a hugely powerful cavalry unit, maybe with characters or just lots of ranks, that they can break the infantry (but in this case you are going to have to do it a few times unmolested to earn your points back). OR use sneaky tricks to get into the flanks, or combo charge.

If you are going elves, dragons, and eagles, and eagle riders, hell even gryphons can get you what you need. Where you can do a combo charge of flying creatures in the sides or back, while cavalry charge the front. This gives you a much better chance to route them. But even better would be to get the cavalry with ranks into the side so you can disrupt ranks, and make them lose stubborn. This can be done with positioning tricks, like fast cav baiting charges, to make a unit stick its head out etc.

its an uphill battle however if you want to run with little or no infantry blocks, I won't lie to you there, but they can still be usefull as a fast dangerous flanking units in most armies.

The standard use would probably be a cavalry unit on the flanks with at last 1 rank, so they can disrupt, and an infantry block in the front, to lock them in combat, and grant their own rank bonus while your cav go around the side.

Zaszz
05-08-2011, 20:21
Additionally, I don't think elves have much in the way of options for their riders except hand weapons, lances, and spears, so your multi turn killing potential is fairly poor, but on the charge, lances are still nasty at least, and with HE at least you often get a reroll to hit.

Oberon
05-08-2011, 20:39
With elves having a ranked unit of cavalry, and taking it intact to the flank of an enemy regiment, just isn't feasible or easy. Sure horses are fast, but that gets you only so far and there's little time as unless you take something like 15 (how many points is that? 400plus? riiiight), there won't be enough left when the CR is counted.

Dragon princes have the attacks to win even from the front, for one turn. Using a shadow mage helps them to win the second turn also (mindrazor, toughness-hex) and death mage would help in lowering their LD vs steadfast (doom&darkness still works like that, right?).

When you have no ranks and the enemy can't modify your armour too much (s3 troops), it really doesn't matter if you charge to the front or flank, you are going to win by killing and they will be steadfast anyway, and even if you did charge in the flank, you would be facing their front the next turn anyway thanks to combat reform.

In conclusion: elven cavalry is still good in: killing support stuff or undead (crumble instead of break, every wound counts and there's no steadfast), magic will help them perform in the second round of combat but there's still no point charging ranked units and expecting to break them in short order.

Pyriel
05-08-2011, 23:00
i actualy do want to include dragon princes in my army... dunno if its a dead end though, from what i hear. but basicaly phoenix guard and dragon princes are my favourite-looking units, so what the hell :P

Mirbeau
05-08-2011, 23:16
i actualy do want to include dragon princes in my army... dunno if its a dead end though, from what i hear. but basicaly phoenix guard and dragon princes are my favourite-looking units, so what the hell :P

I'd say go for it man. I've just had my first game with the dragon princes, and they did pretty well. Cav aren't the lethal force they once were, granted, but I'd say they are over-neglected/underestimated by people now - most would rather shoot my white lions, which is handy, and I've had a few nasty run-ins with cav this edition, especially now they're less likely to be march blocked.

decker_cky
06-08-2011, 01:01
I still like units of 5 cavalry as support units. Units of 5-8 with a flaming banner are particularly nice against several of the problematic monsters out there. 5 dragon princes with the flaming banner and musician is a scary thing to face for aboms and hydras.

sulla
06-08-2011, 03:11
Heavy cav are still ok, it's just that the power of high strength infantry far surpasses them now for points cost.

It's still nice to have a unit or two with the range to dictate where the fight will be, and many heavy cav units can put out phenomenal damage on the charge (or later, in a few cases).

There are a couple of options for cav now; cheap disposable units such as the one Decker mentioned above, or bigger centrepiece units with character support, e.g. 10 cold one knights with a hydra banner BSB and cauldron support, of chaos knights with a stubborn crown character. Units hard hitting enough to smash the enemy or tough enough to hold them in place while the slower elements get into position.

Certain armies can easily rack up points vs bigger cav units though. For example, it's not uncommon for dwarves or WoC to have their entire army with s5 or greater. Goblins have accurate doom divers who ignore armour, DE and TK can give killing blow to units easily.
When your big unit only has 12 or so wounds, it's not hard to see how the fight is going to end if you don't break your opponent quickly.

Okuto
06-08-2011, 04:36
cav don't suck....per say

it's just that they aren't as point productive as infantry hordes......also random charge is too risky imo to be using cav......first game of 8th I charged with cav, made a crappy charge roll and then got countercharged and died horribly....been terrified of using cav since....well except wolf riders....they are cheap enough not to miss

snottlebocket
06-08-2011, 10:33
You didnt really answer the question about how to overcome that however. Basically now a days you can't rely on any equal points value of cavalry having a good shot at breaking a large infantry block to the front. So what you have to do is either have such a hugely powerful cavalry unit, maybe with characters or just lots of ranks, that they can break the infantry (but in this case you are going to have to do it a few times unmolested to earn your points back). OR use sneaky tricks to get into the flanks, or combo charge.


Why should they? Those infantry paid a lot of points to be numerous and resistant to charges. You paid a lot of points to be well armored and fast. If you decide to completely waste the speed you paid so many points for, to play right into the strengths of the infantry, that's your fault. Gallop up the flanks with that nice 14+ inch march move and slam into the flank of his army, negating his rank bonus and causing chaos... you might actually get what you paid for.

People don't rush into combat with their wizards, swords flailing. I don't see anyone crawling their flying monsters along at ground speed. So why do people keep insisting on frontal charges with cavalry?

Von Wibble
06-08-2011, 11:14
I play tomb kings. My cavalry is definately dead.

In general, cavalry still have a few roles.

- They have a high charge range. A unit of 5 knights typically costs only a little bit more than an opposing fast cavalry unit, or unit of scouts, and easily beats them in combat, so they can charge at those. Yes, the opponent will probably flee, but they lose battlefield position and might not rally.


- As already mentioned, cavalry are good on the charge against monsters. 5 Dragon Princes with banner can comfortably beat monsters of griffon level since they will get wounds on the charge, they have banner and charge for 2 combat res, and they can't be thunderstomped. If the monster charges them there are problems, but you can always use a couple of units in a tag team to cover each other.

- In the late game, once the cavalry have got behind the lines, and the table is less cluttered, you have the option of support charges.

My high elf, empire and dark elf armies take at least 1 cavalry unit every game. My tomb kings don't take conventional cavalry, but I still have fast charing units in the form of chariots and necropolis knights.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
06-08-2011, 11:30
I still have a Chaos Knight heavy WOC army. It performs well, using the knights to charge up the flanks chew up weaker units while the infantry I do have holds the centre, then when the knights are finished they can either go warmachine hunting or turn in to the centre to tip the balance of the fights. Seems to work well for me.

Lord Solar Plexus
06-08-2011, 15:22
I often use Imperial lancers to good effect. I believe they are cheap enough to be fielded in units of around 10 models plus characters. With a 1+ AS and their speed they can often retain a rank themselves (when you figure in a WP, Captain and/or TGM as well), and with some support they are quite a decent unit.

Now some might say that needing support sounds like throwing even more points at a mediocre unit vainly trying to improve it but my infantry, characters and warmachines all need support as well.

malisteen
06-08-2011, 16:01
Black Knights are gone from my vamp counts army (I never ran blood knights due to not having funds for the official models, not liking my attempted conversions, and not being able to run 3rd party models at the local gw), but that's due less to the cav being useless (I'd still run smallish units of black knights for support charges if I could) and more due to not having points left after the required core and obligatory characters and grave guard - an issue with how the 7th edition vamp counts book interacts with the 8th edition rules, rather then with how cav work in the 8th edition rules to begin with.

Algorath
06-08-2011, 16:38
I play tomb kings. My cavalry is definately dead.

I lol'ed.

Seriously, pick your targets carefully. My night gobbo archers go stock with three fanatics always; the moment you charge them, you get stuck.

TsukeFox
06-08-2011, 17:02
Like everything else in 8th- you have to devote a large amount of numbers to the unit. Even the 4th or 5th edition greenskin book said to bring boar boys no fewer than 12 (@26/27 points a piece back in the day? WTF ).
Ergo todays Calvary needs to come 15 strong just to maintain the ability to distrubt ranks. 20 strong if want to scare the crap out of your oppenent.

falcone
06-08-2011, 21:25
tomb kings...cavalry is dead.


Well of course they are.

As a few others have stated, cavalry are for support (for the most part) and realistically that's how it should be. Cavalry aren't supposed to be meant to charge prepared lines (again, there are a few exceptions).

vinush
06-08-2011, 22:02
Malis, have you asked your local GW manager about taking a small amount of non GW models? If he's a decent enough bloke, he might allow it.

I know they have the official "No non-GW models" rule, but my local store manager let me use my IG army there with my non-GW model.

Now granted, this was only one model out of the 68 in my army, but a unit of say 5 models out of an army of potentially hundreds shouldn't be that much of an issue.

THE \/ince

stashman
06-08-2011, 22:37
Cavalry have its benefits. If you run a big unit you have high armoursave and negates stomp attacks and that can be a good use to have cavalry against monsterous infantery and monsters.

Use them for right purpose, and you will have an advantage.

Commissar Vaughn
07-08-2011, 00:16
I generally run units of 5 or 6 heavy lancers for my DOW, Bretonnians and Empire sometimes goes up to 10 or 12 for the Imperial lancers.

So far I have encountered no problems. This is becouse most of whats on the internet doesnt exist in real life.

Feefait
09-08-2011, 01:38
I played a game recently with my beastman where I took 2 units of 10 centigors. I know they aren't true blue cav but they are close enough. Anyway, with wyssans on them the destroyed anything they touched. One unit charged a unit of khorne warriors with xhw along with a monster and I took a couple wounds then obliterated and broke them.

I am considering a lizardmen cold one heavy list based on the success. A slang with lire of beasts buffing them would be a lot of fun.

malisteen
09-08-2011, 04:47
Malis, have you asked your local GW manager about taking a small amount of non GW models? If he's a decent enough bloke, he might allow it.

I consider him a friend, and I wouldn't want to put him into a situation he would find awkward. I had previously floated the possibility of using the chapterhouse tervigon kit, saw he would have let me but that it made him uncomfortable, and backed off it. He lets me use my zombie dragon conversion, despite it being most prominently a WotC dracolich (with balrog wings and a black hind quarters), and he lets my friend use his scratch-built squiggoths, and thinks they're both awesome and that's good enough for me, especially compared to the last guy who refused to let my friend play with his scratch built models. So bitter, even now.

Once the current manager leaves, though (and they always leave - GW employment practices being as abysmal as they are), I might look for an indie store to play at instead. If I find a good one, you can bet I'd be all over some new mantic models.

Tarian
09-08-2011, 04:56
I use a block of 30 Dragon Princes/Characters. It has several advantages being:

a) It hits freakishly hard on the charge.
b) It is very hard to score any points off of it, due to sheer size.

With the Banner of the World Dragon, magic isn't too bad, and speed helps minimize Warmachine hits. It's the Tale of Prince Dar-Corith, if you want to have a look at it.

malisteen
09-08-2011, 05:02
Used to see similar builds of blood knights (not 30, dear lord, 20 was enough, especially with 4+ regen banner and blooddrinker lord). Wonder if they'd still work these days.

russellmoo
09-08-2011, 06:58
Calvary adds fun and variety and is still viable- just take one or two units of cavalry, and try and get them into the enemy flank-

Dragon princes= good
Cold one calvalry+ magic banner= good

Ellyrian reavers= bad
Dark riders= okay
Silver helms= okay

Helf on griffon= cannon fodder
Delf with reverse ward save= opponent's tears
Elf on dragon= overpriced, awesomeness

metalloveman
09-08-2011, 09:30
In my wood elf army I use cav to hunt monsters and light units. having 5-7 dragon princes with a musician and the flame banner is a great investment. Wait for the enemy to plunk down his hydra or hellpit, then deploy(4 wide) opposite and move in to position to charge (about 16.5 inches away is a safe bet). if your oppoent has no monsters, engage some missle units, even just to tie them up while your infantry advance. If he doesn't have either, hold one of his s4 or lower units in place with some infantry(white lions/pheonix guard are preferable) and charge its flank, even after the charge you are still hitting at high ws with asf and the enemy won't turn to face you if they are also fighting infantry.

Eta
09-08-2011, 11:52
My Chaos Knights still see a lot of use, I never play without at least one unit of 5-7, most of the time I bring two units. They can quite easily chew through big amounts of basic infantry on their own and when supported by either an infantry unit or another unit of knights it is usually game over for the opposing unit after only one or two rounds of combat.

Juggernaut101
09-08-2011, 14:01
As far as my WoC are concerned there are two good reasons to take cav. :

1) Khorne Knights have a good damage output (especially when you throw a killy Lord in) and the Blasted Standard helps them get there...expensive? Hell yes but awesome when the body parts start flying


and

2) cav is immune to the Skaven's 13th spell...which is huge for me because I'd rather not see my Chosen turned into Clan Rats.


They are even ok against most infantry units, just don't slam them into an elite unit of 30+. If they try that alone they will most likely lose...badly.

scarletsquig
09-08-2011, 15:20
1-2 units of 5-10 heavy cav on the flanks still works great.

If you want a main unit, then you need 30 in a horde to really wreck stuff. They also need to ideally have great weapons or anything that isn't a spear or lance.. otherwise they will suck on the second round of combat.

Empire knights of the white wolf work great as a main cavalry unit in 8th... 2+ armour save, s5 attacks each round, and a core choice to boot. you can even boost them to S6 for +3 points per model if you really want to smash things.

AngryAngel
09-08-2011, 19:09
Used to see similar builds of blood knights (not 30, dear lord, 20 was enough, especially with 4+ regen banner and blooddrinker lord). Wonder if they'd still work these days.

20 blood knights !! my god, I don't think I'll ever see that many in one place. I have 10 and I couldn't ever force myself to spend another 200 dollars for 10 more.

decker_cky
09-08-2011, 19:45
Ellyrian reavers= bad
Dark riders= okay

I know with RXB dark riders are better, and that it's core vs special, but in 8th, the core vs special isn't that important, and a flanking unit might not want the shooting and instead you might want to keep it cheap. ASF is mildly better than hatred though. I'd consider reavers to be okay as well.

Tuttivillus
09-08-2011, 21:22
[QUOTE=The Anarchist;5692974]Well after years playing a wood elf force I've decided to shift to one of the other elven forces as part of a campagin with some friends. As a wood elf player I never really had the need or use for a cavalry charge. but if gona be playing the one of the other elven forces I've something of a desire for a glorious charge to break my enemy. but is this probable and possible so much in the 8th eddition?

Glorious charge? Like the Light Brigade charge? sure:) But seriously, H.Cav. is allways on my list, unit 11 knights+hero (i play Empire) and it's decent. About its uses, i think u found the answers on this thread, i would only add that there is something like psychological effect of heavy cav. on the table. Opponents can get really nervous and do stupid things in the opening.

If u'r going for high elves dragon princes are very decent choice, take like 12 of them or 11+hero, plus small units of silver helms as a support, that + infantry and you have rank breakers.

malisteen

Black Knights are gone from my vamp counts army (I never ran blood knights due to not having funds for the official models, not liking my attempted conversions, and not being able to run 3rd party models at the local gw), but that's due less to the cav being useless (I'd still run smallish units of black knights for support charges if I could) and more due to not having points left after the required core and obligatory characters and grave guard - an issue with how the 7th edition vamp counts book interacts with the 8th edition rules, rather then with how cav work in the 8th edition rules to begin with.

But, eh, really? Black Knights are very decent, considering their cost. S4T4, killing blow and cherry on the cake - ethearal steeds which improves the way they move on the table so, so much. Don't let down so easily!:cheese:

malisteen
10-08-2011, 05:06
Like I said, they're alright, I'd still run them, I just don't have the points for them these days. I play 2k points, and as ok as black knights still are, my vamp lord, BSB, core infantry, and big block of grave guard are all either literally or functionally required. The knights are nice, but there's a lot of competition for an extremely limited budget of discretionary points. I don't think the 8th ed rules for cavalry ruined them (the way I think the 8th ed rules for skirmishers ruined wood elves), it's just that the 7th ed counts are a bit of a square peg to 8th edition's round hole. You can make it fit, but you'll end up cutting the corners off, and sadly it seems black knights are one of the corners that tends to get cut.

decker_cky
10-08-2011, 06:42
Black knights are quite nice IMO, since ethereal gives them a built in strider banner and S4. A small relatively cheap unit seems like the perfect place to put a banner for monster hunting and death and glory insurance in an army hurting for more banners (assuming your core is ghoul heavy). Killing blow is a nice little advantage there too, for mage hunting.

MoridinUK
25-08-2011, 22:18
If Cav has been somewhat nerfed, then most people will take less of it and so take more infantry. Infantry should be vulnerable to archers and so Cav archers could be a good replacement for your cav?

You 'should' be able to run rings around infantry while shooting them up all the time...

Normal cav should then be used to hit archers and the cav archers where possible... Any idea whether this may work?

Avian
25-08-2011, 22:24
That probably works better in historical war games. ;)

stashman
26-08-2011, 00:57
I will try out a Deathstar Boar Boyz unit on saturday vs. Vampire Counts.

It's all in a basket - well have to try.

Unit of 12 Boar Boyz with Warbanner boosted with 5 characters: general with armour of gork and spear, warboss with sword of anti-heroes and potion of foolhardiness, big boss with spear and armour of destiny, goblin big boss with bashas axe and the goblin BSB in the second rank with Rampagers standrad, and by the side of the unit is a black orc warboss in a chariot.

This dirty tactics is working against V.V and tomb kings and maybe deamons. here it comes!

5 Wide = 4 characters and champ, BSB in second rank.

Call Waaagh +d3 CR
Charge +1CR
Banner +1 CR
Warbanner +1 CR
BSB +1 CR
Rank (think I will keep atleast one rank) +1 CR
= +7 CR

Impact Hits d6 S6 and following attacks:
5 Boars S5
General 4 S7
Warboss 6 S7 (if there is atleast one character from opponent)
Big Boss 3 S6
Gobbo 4 S5
BSB S5
Champ 2 S6
4 Boar Boyz 2nd rank 4 S5

If the chariot also hit same target unit add: d6 S5, 3 S5, 5 S6 (fencers balde)

Can some one calculate the overkill that will be against:

Ghouls 50 Horde
Graveguard Greatweapon 40 Horde.

I think I will erase everything I charge with this unit.

And the list is backed up with 4 boar chariots, 2 doom divers and rock lobba that will soften up the V.C units.

Rochr
26-08-2011, 12:04
Chaos Knights with Mark of Khorne or Banner of Rage will still give any low/meduium strength horde unit a run for their money. They won't break them in the first turn of combat but eventually will.

warplock
26-08-2011, 12:36
5 Wide = 4 characters and champ, BSB in second rank.

Call Waaagh +d3 CR
Charge +1CR
Banner +1 CR
Warbanner +1 CR
BSB +1 CR
Rank (think I will keep atleast one rank) +1 CR
= +7 CR

Impact Hits d6 S6 and following attacks:
5 Boars S5
General 4 S7
Warboss 6 S7 (if there is atleast one character from opponent)
Big Boss 3 S6
Gobbo 4 S5
BSB S5
Champ 2 S6
4 Boar Boyz 2nd rank 4 S5

If the chariot also hit same target unit add: d6 S5, 3 S5, 5 S6 (fencers balde)

Can some one calculate the overkill that will be against:

Ghouls 50 Horde


Against Ghouls, the deathstar boarboys on their own would kill about 16 on the charge, if you're unlucky would take a few wounds back, and kill around 20 more due to crumbling, so 36 kills. With the chariot as well, they Ghouls should just about be wiped out.

GodlessM
26-08-2011, 12:41
To answer the thread's question bluntly, they're not.

TheMadMarquis
26-08-2011, 13:15
I'd say that standard heavy cavalry is now generally very overcosted and uncompetitive. You really just don't see things like Silver Helms, Tomb King heavy cav or either sort of Cold One Knight.

However, knights with something a bit special - Empire with their 1+ AS, Brets with their mini-ranks, Chaos Knights and Dragon Princes with double attacks - can still be useful in certain situations, and Swiftstride helps you to pick those match-ups.

For example, I've had a lot of success breaking even rock hard infantry formations with paired-up killy Grail Knights and big buses of Knights Errant, and Empire knights with Great Weapons even in quite small numbers can do enormous damage grinding on otherwise pretty tough S3/4 T3/4 infantry like Gors and Stormvermin.

IcedCrow
26-08-2011, 14:15
Cavalry used as a support unit and not as a main "I WIN" unit is still very powerful.

You hear people deride cavalry as "not competitive" and "a waste of points" because when those people compare them to what they used to be (hideously broken) they can't as easily smash units down and as such are "not competitive".

Things like tomb king heavy cav have never really been used, because tomb king heavy cav has a weak armor save and doesn't hit as strong on the charge. Cold One Knights are difficult to use because of their stupidity and cost. Silver Helms in the hands of someone not going all horde can be an excellent support and smash unit.

Most cavalry paired up with something like a chariot or dedicated infantry combat unit can tip the odds in your favor often. By themselves, they will probably do a lot less.

warplock
26-08-2011, 16:28
...Tomb King heavy cav

:shifty: :skull:

GenerationTerrorist
26-08-2011, 19:26
People just need to realise that they can't use Cavalry the same way that they have done for the X years before 8th Edition came out.

It also tends to make for much more interesting lists - Gone are the days when the staple WoC army was 3 small units of Marauder Horsemen, 4 units of Knights and add a few Lord/Hero choices of your preference.

Don Zeko
26-08-2011, 21:52
Cold One Knights are difficult to use because of their stupidity and cost.

Cost? You get S4, WS 5, I6, Ld9, S4 mounts, Immune to Psychology, hatred, and fear for 27 points. Compare that to great weapon Knightly Orders. You get -1 WS, -1 Ld, -1 S on the mounts, ASL and no re-rolls instead of I6 and Hatred, and +1 strength for a four point difference. I think CoK are one of the few cavalry choices that are still plenty cost-effective. They're certainly better than Dragon princes that drop to S3 across the board after the charge.

Von Wibble
26-08-2011, 22:49
Agreed - with BSB allowing stupiodity rerolls anyway and possibility of cauldron + hydra banner + shadow debuffs on enemy, dark elf cold one knights are still a vey strong unit.

As far as Tomb Kings go, at least they are called horsemen and not heavy horsemen now!

TheMadMarquis
26-08-2011, 23:44
Yes, but Cold One knights are part of a list that couldn't be more spoilt for reasonably priced, hugely effective hammer units, whereas Empire Knights are part of a list with pretty limited options in that department. There's nothing 6 Cold One Knights can do that a Hydra can't.

Rosstifer
26-08-2011, 23:55
Yes, but Cold One knights are part of a list that couldn't be more spoilt for reasonably priced, hugely effective hammer units, whereas Empire Knights are part of a list with pretty limited options in that department. There's nothing 6 Cold One Knights can do that a Hydra can't.

Add a banner for Blood and Glory? :D

TheMadMarquis
26-08-2011, 23:58
Just shove one on an otherwise bannerless unit of repeater crossbowmen or something.

Edit to add: please don't do that, because I'm unnaccounably awful at Blood and Glory and that sort of thing makes me cry.

Don Zeko
27-08-2011, 00:00
Yes, but Cold One knights are part of a list that couldn't be more spoilt for reasonably priced, hugely effective hammer units, whereas Empire Knights are part of a list with pretty limited options in that department. There's nothing 6 Cold One Knights can do that a Hydra can't.

Sure, but the fact that there are better units because you have a great book to work with doesn't mean that a unit isn't worth your time. And that's doubly true if you're comparing it to an undercosted by 40% War Hydra. I still run my knights in 8th, and I've won plenty of tournament games with them around.

TheMadMarquis
27-08-2011, 01:11
My point is that even in a perfectly balanced Dark Elf army book, certain elements should be relatively undercosted and others overcosted: it's what gives an army character. Warriors of Chaos wouldn't be the same army if their most cost-effective unit was throwing-axe Marauder Horsemen. Dark Elves should be good on the attack and Empire good on the defence: units that give them extra flexibility should be a little overpriced to compensate for the balance they bring your list.

With that in mind, I think that the majority of heavy cav units are overpriced relative to infantry and monstrous hammer units.

enygma7
27-08-2011, 01:15
Cavalry are viable, as others have said they just aren't an I win button any more. A case can be made that the points are "more optimally" spent on elite infantry, but frankly cavalry works fine and is still perfectly usable so I don't really care about micro optimisation.

Cavalry are good for:
- Supporting the charge of a unit of ranked infantry
- Counter charging an enemy unit locked in combat with your infantry. Actually one of their best roles - it means your highly unlikely to fail a charge or suffer negative consquences if you do as the enemy will be in contact with your battleline and it also makes it easy for them to target the flanks.
- Running down/off fleeing enemy
- Charging down small support units, missile troops and small elite units.

Elf cavalry in particular can be very good as they have high WS, I (and ASF for high elves) and critically re-rolls to hit which protects you from rubber lancing their charge.

As everyone has said, it probably isn't a good idea to do a solo frontal charge on a large unit of infantry. But there are exceptions. The fact the enemy remains steadfast isn't much of an issue if they continue to lose the combat turn after turn and have no support.

w3rm
27-08-2011, 02:01
Anyone who says cav are dead is using "net lists" with everything optimized best of the best all the time. Honestly if you can't find a use for hard hitting, fast unit with a good armour save is playing the game wrong. There's always some archers to hunt, support units to kill and flanks to threaten. They can do a bunch of damage and then flee, and then rally next turn giving up no points while weakening the enemy greatly.

Andy p
27-08-2011, 02:06
Ive found units of 10 savage boar boys with additional hand weapons can be really useful at times. :)

Also sometimes one takes a flaming banner for maybe...hydra's or Hellpits, not that most people are silly enough to let that happen.

ps: Hey stashman, do your savage boar boyz take spears or just hand weapons?

pps: Apologies for not stating that I use Savage boar boyz. Now edited

Sh4d0w
27-08-2011, 14:13
Cavalry isn't dead. What's just gone are the days when you can charge a unit head on, wipe the front rank, win with your kill bonus, break them and overrun through them. Cavalry need to used in combined charges on the flank now.

Eta
27-08-2011, 20:53
Ive found units of 10 boar boys with additional hand weapons can be really useful at times. :)



IIRC, additional handweapons don't work when mounted. Spears would be my choice for the boar boys.

Don Zeko
27-08-2011, 22:22
Savage Orc Boar Boys have a special rule that allows them to use extra hand weapons while mounted.

Okuto
28-08-2011, 04:57
I use a 20 man WW knight horde and can still ride my enemies down, just had to double the sizes of my cav regiments...

Eta
28-08-2011, 09:06
Savage Orc Boar Boys have a special rule that allows them to use extra hand weapons while mounted.

Ah OK, didn't know that! Thanks for clearing that up!

DeathlessDraich
28-08-2011, 16:02
I will try out a Deathstar Boar Boyz unit on saturday vs. Vampire Counts.

Call Waaagh +d3 CR
Charge +1CR
Banner +1 CR
Warbanner +1 CR
BSB +1 CR
Rank (think I will keep atleast one rank) +1 CR
= +7 CR

Impact Hits d6 S6 and following attacks:
5 Boars S5
General 4 S7
Warboss 6 S7 (if there is atleast one character from opponent)
Big Boss 3 S6
Gobbo 4 S5
BSB S5
Champ 2 S6
4 Boar Boyz 2nd rank 4 S5

If the chariot also hit same target unit add: d6 S5, 3 S5, 5 S6 (fencers balde)

Can some one calculate the overkill that will be against:

Ghouls 50 Horde
Graveguard Greatweapon 40 Horde.
.

50 Ghouls against 5S5 + 5(+3Impacts) S6 + 10S7 at higher WS plus 13S5 at equal WS
= 2.22 + 2.77(+2)+ 4.55+ 4.33
= 15.88 dead Ghouls

42/43A from Ghouls = 10.2 saves = 5 slain Boars

Adding static -> CR = +13 to O&G

About 22 Ghouls are still alive.

Against Grave Guard - about 10 or 11 slain

I haven't bothered to check the calculations though:D

Phenix621
28-08-2011, 20:34
In response to the OP, I feel armies with great foot troops have cavalry that is even more deadlier now. You can use the combo of Maruaders/Chaos Knights or DP/Spear Elves with a hammer and anvil approach that is highly effective.

However, armies that are based on Cavalry like Bretonnians get nerfed. I usually have to double charge a single unit to even have a chance of breaking it.

raptoralln
28-08-2011, 22:34
When I use cavalry I usually try to hit hard with them then move my men at arms to block any closing enemies. Unfortunately that does not work so I am trying to move onto better things like infantry assaults supported by cavalry in order to create a Napoleonic plan of divide and conquer with cavalry and infantry.

stashman
29-08-2011, 00:42
50 Ghouls against 5S5 + 5(+3Impacts) S6 + 10S7 at higher WS plus 13S5 at equal WS
= 2.22 + 2.77(+2)+ 4.55+ 4.33
= 15.88 dead Ghouls

42/43A from Ghouls = 10.2 saves = 5 slain Boars

Adding static -> CR = +13 to O&G

About 22 Ghouls are still alive.

Against Grave Guard - about 10 or 11 slain

I haven't bothered to check the calculations though:D

Well, ghouls can ONLY hit characters in front :D

stashman
29-08-2011, 00:43
Ive found units of 10 boar boys with additional hand weapons can be really useful at times. :)

Also sometimes one takes a flaming banner for maybe...hydra's or Hellpits, not that most people are silly enough to let that happen.

ps: Hey stashman, do your boar boyz take spears or just hand weapons?

Used spears when I played

stashman
29-08-2011, 00:49
Ok I used my Boar Boy Deffstar and it ran into a ghoul unit with 2 vampire lords. It was a 3000 points Battle for the pass.

My list was not superb, all eggs in one basket, but it worked.

7 characters in a 12 strong boar boy unit. Got the charge and rolled great on impact hit, vampires didn't do much damage to me then I wiped the unit clean!!!

I had all magic heavy armours so every boar ridden character had 2+ save and all with T5.

It worked, maybe not next time.

Andy p
29-08-2011, 02:16
^I was wondering, would it be worth you taking a savage horde like that, but with a shrunken head shaman? Then you would have a 5+ ward save on all those boars and if you made those heroes and lords savage they would have it too, along with the armour.

Except for the goblins of course, although it may be a bit more expensive. Hmm perhaps this suggestion isnt so good afterall.

Lord Solar Plexus
30-08-2011, 07:35
As I said before, cavalry is still extremely useful. My Imperial knights prove their worth game after game. Had a game against DE last week; we both tried to control the centre, most of our units forming a mirrored crescent around it. Then my knights got off a charge on his Hydra, effortlessly cutting it down and overrunning out of any charge arc. It's kind of self-evident that even here infantry support was vital, not in that particular combat but by holding up and finally flanking his Cold Ones...another unit of cavalry btw, and used properly it could have worked just as well.

1+ saves are particularly nasty because nobody I've ever met has used or is going to use the Lore of Metal...

Rosstifer
30-08-2011, 07:42
1+ saves are particularly nasty because nobody I've ever met has used or is going to use the Lore of Metal...

I love this. Last edition was all "Oh, you have Warriors? I'll go Metal". God that was annoying.

ihavetoomuchminis
30-08-2011, 12:05
I find it strange. I use Metal in many games. The last spell is great, and the +2 armour save to all units in 12" has won me games (nothing like having Empire Greatswords with 2+ armour saves).

Kay
30-08-2011, 22:24
30 dragon princes with banner of eternal flame, full command and a mounted BSB with 2hand weapon, and banner of the world dragon.

41 attacks, with reroll to hit at WS5 and S5 plus 3 at s6plus the horses.
All the unit is IMMUNE to magic and has a 2+ ward against flaming attacks.

How dead is that? IMHO, there is no way to stop that unit before it hits your line on turn 2 with the strength of a... Dragon unit xD

Lord Solar Plexus
30-08-2011, 22:31
I find it strange. I use Metal in many games. The last spell is great, and the +2 armour save to all units in 12" has won me games (nothing like having Empire Greatswords with 2+ armour saves).

It's not a bad lore at all, with some very nifty spells in it. However, the signature and a few others are extremely hit and miss. When you're up against someone with little in the way of armour, your magic phase will suffer, and become predictable. That's pretty much all there is to it but that can hurt a lot. Also, Metal's missile will just ping off a HPA, flaming or not...

Don Zeko
30-08-2011, 22:50
30 dragon princes with banner of eternal flame, full command and a mounted BSB with 2hand weapon, and banner of the world dragon.

41 attacks, with reroll to hit at WS5 and S5 plus 3 at s6plus the horses.
All the unit is IMMUNE to magic and has a 2+ ward against flaming attacks.

How dead is that? IMHO, there is no way to stop that unit before it hits your line on turn 2 with the strength of a... Dragon unit xD

Do I get the 1200 points this unit costs to stop it with? With those points I can get 65 Tzeentch Chaos warriors with the Razor standard. I think that'd make short work of those princes.

EDIT: and in fact, they do. Dragon princes get 41 attacks, hit on 4's without re-rolls, wound on 3's, 5+ armor, 5+ ward. 6 kills. Add in the horses and the hero and you're up to 7.7 kills, and that's on the charge. Warriors strike back 41 times, hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's, 4+ armor for 6.8 kills, and that's if they stupidly deploy 10-wide instead of 12. Warriors barely lose and are steadfast.

Round 2 is 57 Warriors fighting 23 princes with S3. Princes strike 34 times for 1.25 kills, plus horses and the noble, who I'm generously giving a great weapon and assuming wasn't targeted last round. 2.8 kills. Warriors strike back for 6.8 kills again. Princes are now down 4 kills and outranked by 2, so break test on re-rollable 4. If they stay it'll be 16 princes fighting 54 warriors, so they'll lose by even more.

Warriors could have won this fight with 40 models and saved themselves 450 points. If you don't like this example, try these guys against a bestigor or executioner horde, or perhaps a dwarf or empire gunline. They'll also lose to shadow magic dark elves, dark elves with a pendant lord, lucky gateways (EDIT: Ok, maybe not lucky Gateways. Forgot the banner), flank charges, etc. etc. etc..

TheMadMarquis
30-08-2011, 22:59
Versus the 70 Chaos Warriors of Khorne you could get for the same price?

Edit: Ninja'd by Mr Zeko.

Gaargod
31-08-2011, 04:12
Someone (early on in the thread) espoused on the bonus of cavalry's speed, thus allowing you to flank charge and remove an enemy's stubborn (which i'm assuming they meant as steadfast).

This is, most unfortunately, not the case. Even if you have the required full second rank (i.e. 10 cavalry models at the end of combat), you only 'disrupt' an enemy. This means they don't get to count their rank bonus against you - thus, you've got got odds of winning the combat.
However, being disrupted does not stop you being steadfast. If you have more ranks than them, you get your steadfast LD. Even more stupidly, you get to use your steadfast LD to combat reform, so they won't have a flank charge.

Its probably my single most hated change in 8th ed. Even if you, somehow, pull off a flank charge with enough ranks to disrupt them AND still win combat significantly enough, the enemy will still not really care. Its also totally unrealistic - in war situations, its confusing enough. If you are engaged down the flank by superior forces, you don't calmly assess the situation to work out how many there are of them, much less organize your ranks quickly against them. In most cases, you'd run. Fast.

Tarian
31-08-2011, 04:42
Do I get the 1200 points this unit costs to stop it with? With those points I can get 65 Tzeentch Chaos warriors with the Razor standard. I think that'd make short work of those princes.

EDIT: and in fact, they do. Dragon princes get 41 attacks, hit on 4's without re-rolls, wound on 3's, 5+ armor, 5+ ward. 6 kills. Add in the horses and the hero and you're up to 7.7 kills, and that's on the charge. Warriors strike back 41 times, hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's, 4+ armor for 6.8 kills, and that's if they stupidly deploy 10-wide instead of 12. Warriors barely lose and are steadfast.

Round 2 is 57 Warriors fighting 23 princes with S3. Princes strike 34 times for 1.25 kills, plus horses and the noble, who I'm generously giving a great weapon and assuming wasn't targeted last round. 2.8 kills. Warriors strike back for 6.8 kills again. Princes are now down 4 kills and outranked by 2, so break test on re-rollable 4. If they stay it'll be 16 princes fighting 54 warriors, so they'll lose by even more.

Warriors could have won this fight with 40 models and saved themselves 450 points. If you don't like this example, try these guys against a bestigor or executioner horde, or perhaps a dwarf or empire gunline. They'll also lose to shadow magic dark elves, dark elves with a pendant lord, lucky gateways (EDIT: Ok, maybe not lucky Gateways. Forgot the banner), flank charges, etc. etc. etc..

Why won't they get rerolls? Chosen aren't I7+ are they?

Don Zeko
31-08-2011, 04:56
Why won't they get rerolls? Chosen aren't I7+ are they?

ooh, my bad. Warriors are I5, which won't cut it. My bad. Still, that just means they lose by more in round 1, but still nowhere near enough to break steadfast. Princes will still go down and go down hard after that.

Tarian
31-08-2011, 05:00
That is very true, but if you compare them to "lesser" units (i.e. Tzeentch Warriors are *******' hard), they actually do a lot more damage. That, and I usually run a Prince and 3 heroes all with G.Weapons in the unit, except the BSB who has a Lance.

Don Zeko
31-08-2011, 05:05
I'm not saying that it will never work. But there are an awful lot of things that can go wrong. It's not that difficult to build a deathstar that will beat this unit, nor is it impossible to lead a big unit around, get a flank charge on it, or simply charge first and drop those princes to S3.

Kay
31-08-2011, 07:17
@Don Zeko: your argument is fine in the merry lands of theoryhammer, but tbh, how many times would you field such WoC unit? as far as im concerned, i've clashed against chaos more than 10 times an the avg size of warrior units was 18-24.

In the field, against reallistic odds (not against units specifically designed to meet them) that DP unit would steamroll by its own 90% of what you can usually face.

What not? i can only think of a hoarded vermin unit with a bell on it, a big temple guard with the slann, maybe stubborn hammerers and slayers and those few few units that you cant destroy/force to flee in the first turn of combat.

Sure there are hoards, but they usually have 5 ranks, and you are delivering near 30 wounds against most units that are hoarded up. They are usually weak (t3, poor save) and you will be leaving them with 1 or 2 ranks left. With your ws5 and 2+ save, you wont suffer many casualties and therefore, beat them in ranks and force that hoard to flee.

Against more specialized units, wich usually come in smaller number, such as your warriors of chaos, my experience, not calculations-but dice throws, tell me you kill an average of 17 on the charge. 17 from 18 or 17 from 24. There are not many left to strike back...

And it is not 1200 their cost, it something around plain 1000, BSB included (The Dragon princes themselves dont cost more than 900)

Lord Solar Plexus
31-08-2011, 11:21
Someone (early on in the thread) espoused on the bonus of cavalry's speed, thus allowing you to flank charge and remove an enemy's stubborn (which i'm assuming they meant as steadfast).This is, most unfortunately, not the case. Even if you have the required full second rank (i.e. 10 cavalry models at the end of combat), you only 'disrupt' an enemy.


No, that isn't automatically the case, and a flank charge only indirectly contributes to such a result (less attacks increase the chance to retain your ranks). However, the target unit isn't automatically steadfast either. That's just one of these unfounded assumptions I hear all the time. Or perhaps they're Ld 5 with no re-roll, who knows? It's impossible to say without any context who will win what or who will break when.

Lastly, winning combats is important in itself. You don't win by losing all the combats and relying on steadfast, or very rarely.



Even if you, somehow, pull off a flank charge with enough ranks to disrupt them AND still win combat significantly enough, the enemy will still not really care.


Pulling off flank charges isn't really that exotic as you make it out to be, barring a living carpet of gribblies stretching to the horizon, and even into such a horde in the general sense one can punch holes. Secondly, if you flank and disrupt someone in such a fashion, then phrasing it as you did is - no offense - completely at odds with reality I'm afraid as both these factors vastly increase the likelihood of winning the fight, not decrease as you imply.

But there is even more to it than the simplistic comparison of single units, more than the black and white pair of breaking or not. Do you really in all circumstances not care when one of your hordes is held up? Perhaps this was my intent in the first place. And yes, the unit in question might be able to reform, who knows, but will it not then present a flank to my centre?



In the field, against reallistic odds (not against units specifically designed to meet them) that DP unit would steamroll by its own 90% of what you can usually face.

What not?

Units like these are why I include a Steam Tank. Oh, you're still crippling it but it will hold you up for quite a while, generating a single point for the steam cannon. While only S2, it'll hit a lot and you don't get armour saves. And those Outriders (another example of useful cavalry) are likely to have killed a few guys too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite fond of cavalry in general!