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Imperial Vampire
06-08-2011, 01:09
Hi! Just wondering if casting incantation of cursed blades on a chariot unit would grant killing blow on impact hits, or only on "standard" attacks?

Thanks!

Falkman
06-08-2011, 01:45
It grants killing blow to the unit's close combat attacks, and impact hits are close combat attacks, so yes, it would grant killing blow to the impact hits as well.

Blkc57
07-08-2011, 04:15
Interesting way to look at it, so in the same manner would you grant killing blow to the stomp attacks of an Ustabi that have the cursed blades spell cast on them?

For instance I bring up this FAQ statement...

Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as
Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks?
(p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed
as a shooting attack.

melonmelon
07-08-2011, 04:43
Interesting way to look at it, so in the same manner would you grant killing blow to the stomp attacks of an Ustabi that have the cursed blades spell cast on them?

For instance I bring up this FAQ statement...

Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as
Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks?
(p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed
as a shooting attack.

In that case, refer to p.71 BRB, "Finally, as Impact Hits are close combat attacks(albeit of an unusual type)...:rolleyes:

Blkc57
07-08-2011, 06:05
Facinating. As the Highlander once said..."There can be only one." If Special attacks are not close combat attacks, but the book says that a special attack such as impact hits are close combat attacks which is to be believed? I am not tending in any direction merely getting more and more curious about this.

Kalandros
07-08-2011, 06:24
Don't ask yourselves too many questions about why x works like x while another x works like y.

o;

Its just the Mat Ward factor.

Mr_Rose
07-08-2011, 07:57
Facinating. As the Highlander once said..."There can be only one." If Special attacks are not close combat attacks, but the book says that a special attack such as impact hits are close combat attacks which is to be believed? I am not tending in any direction merely getting more and more curious about this.
There is no rule for 'special attacks' that excludes them as a category from also being close combat attacks.
Stomp and Thunderstomp as rules in themselves do, however, state that they do not benefit from other special rules and IIRC, the same is true of breath weapons.
You're confusing yorself looking for a rule that doesn't exist.

Frosty_TK
07-08-2011, 12:08
There are "special rules", not "special attacks", I concur on that at least. But as far as I see it, the reference on "Finally, as impact hits are close combat attacks(albeit of an unusual type)..." ends with "[...] they count for combat resolution." (Paraphrased from german). E.g. The reference to close combat attacks can be interpreted as a introduction and reasoning why they count for combat resolution. I wouldn't necessarrily interpret any more into it, and thus we do not have a contradiction between the rulebook and the FAQ.

Otherwise the pure mention of "close combat attacks" in "Breath weapons", which is certainly there in the german book would mean that a war sphinx would also have killing bow on its 2D6 automatic hits. Reference: page 67, top right, "breath weapons in close combat", first sentence.

As a side note, in contrast to impact hits, there is absolutely no mention that stomp and thunderstomp count for combat resolution. So as far I see it, you'd either have to stick to the letter and discount stomp and thunderstomp for combat resolution AND let impact hits as well as breath wepaons have killing blow, or you make some sensible guesses about the whole thing.

Falkman
07-08-2011, 13:10
No, since they FAQed stomp and breath to not gain the benefit of special rules (by the letter of the rulebook they did, it's only due to the FAQ they don't anymore). Since they haven't FAQed impact hits in the same way, they still benefit from killing blow.

Frosty_TK
07-08-2011, 13:51
I guess I didn't get my meaning across: I was not implying that stomp and thunderstomp should gain killing blow. There is, by the letter, no mention that they are close combat attacks. But by the reasoning of you and others above, this is necessary and in itself enough to gain killing blow.

Wich I try to refute.

Falkman
07-08-2011, 14:14
If it clearly says an attack is a close combat attack, then yes, obviously that is enough to prove that it is in fact a close combat attack.

Udun
07-08-2011, 23:08
No, since they FAQed stomp and breath to not gain the benefit of special rules (by the letter of the rulebook they did, it's only due to the FAQ they don't anymore). Since they haven't FAQed impact hits in the same way, they still benefit from killing blow.

Impact Hits is a special rule (page 71 under the Special Rules section). Per the FAQ, special rules do not count as close combat attacks. Therefore, they do not benefit from Killing Blow.

However, as long as Tomb King players are using Banner of Eternal Flame with their chariots, and people are allowing the Impact Hits to be Flaming Attacks, I will continue to assume that giving a unit of chariots Killing Blow does give them Killing Blow Impact Hits.

Falkman
08-08-2011, 00:29
Per the FAQ, special rules do not count as close combat attacks.
Where in the FAQ does it say that? The FAQ specifically states that Breath weapons and Stomps don't benefit from special rules, but I don't see anything saying that special rules don't count as close combat attacks.

eron12
08-08-2011, 03:09
Where in the FAQ does it say that? The FAQ specifically states that Breath weapons and Stomps don't benefit from special rules, but I don't see anything saying that special rules don't count as close combat attacks.

Well if what Blkc57 posted is from the FAQ it says it there. The FAQ uses breath weapons and stomps as examples of the special rules, it does not limit the question to just those.

Frosty_TK
08-08-2011, 07:54
And, as mentioned above, the breath attack is also classified as close combat attack in its rules. So if that isn't a precedence in favor of NOT granting impact hits killing blow, I don't know what could be meant by "other special rules" in the context of the FAQ.

Q: "Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as
Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks?"
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed
as a shooting attack.
- Rulebook FAQ 1.4 p.6

Blkc57
09-08-2011, 05:29
Well if what Blkc57 posted is from the FAQ it says it there. The FAQ uses breath weapons and stomps as examples of the special rules, it does not limit the question to just those.

The FAQ answer I quoted was copy and pasted verbatim from the Latest FAQ version 1.5

I do not lie good sir, and I am not taking any side in this as I truly do not know which side is correct. I merely posted something I saw in the FAQ that always made me curious about apply things like flaming attacks and killing blow to impacts hits. Not that I actually care.

eron12
09-08-2011, 12:43
The FAQ answer I quoted was copy and pasted verbatim from the Latest FAQ version 1.5

I do not lie good sir, and I am not taking any side in this as I truly do not know which side is correct. I merely posted something I saw in the FAQ that always made me curious about apply things like flaming attacks and killing blow to impacts hits. Not that I actually care.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were lying, just that I hadn't checked the FAQ myself and therefore couldn't confirm what you had posted. I presumed you had quoted it correctly, but wasn't going to unreservidly endorse a quote I hadn't verified. Unfortuantly my qualification came out a little stronger than I intended.

Imperial Vampire
09-08-2011, 22:36
Quote from Udun: "Impact Hits is a special rule (page 71 under the Special Rules section). Per the FAQ, special rules do not count as close combat attacks. Therefore, they do not benefit from Killing Blow."

So, if I recapitulate...

First, in the FAQ they enumerate stomp and breath weapons (as examples) as special rules that are not close combat attacks. Second, in the rules (p.71), they specifically say that impact hits are close combat attacks. Then, they specifically state in two different FAQs that Stomp and breath weapons cannot be affected by magic items, other special rules, etc, but without mentioning Impact Hits.

So, it seems to me that since Incantation of cursed blades affects close combat attacks, and that impact hits are not excluded from being affected by special rules, magic items, etc, impact hits should benefit from this spell when it is cast on a charging TK chariot unit. Unless GW do a FAQ saying the contrary...

Anyway, it is not that big a deal! For a 4 chariot-wide unit charging, they get an average of 14 hits, 2 1/3 hits should be a KB that cannot target any character (being distributed as shooting attack), hence being really beneficial only against hard-as-nail troopers (such as chaos warrior) or cavalry.

Just my 2 cents!

frankenstine
10-08-2011, 17:14
why dont you just 3+ it with your oponent? on a 4+ then they do 1-3 they dont since there is no rule that clearly states if its right?

eron12
11-08-2011, 00:15
First, in the FAQ they enumerate stomp and breath weapons (as examples) as special rules that are not close combat attacks.


More over they say all special rules are not close combat attacks, and list stomp and breath weapons as examples.


Second, in the rules (p.71), they specifically say that impact hits are close combat attacks.

Yep, that would be the part being changed by the FAQ, since it also states that Impact hits are a special rule, and per the FAQ, are not close combat attacks.



Then, they specifically state in two different FAQs that Stomp and breath weapons cannot be affected by magic items, other special rules, etc, but without mentioning Impact Hits.

Not sure why this is relevent, What can aeefect impact hits has no bearing on whether they are close combat attacks or not.


So, it seems to me that since Incantation of cursed blades affects close combat attacks, and that impact hits are not excluded from being affected by special rules, magic items, etc, impact hits should benefit from this spell when it is cast on a charging TK chariot unit. Unless GW do a FAQ saying the contrary...

Which they did, as quoted in this thread multiple times. Impact hits can still benifit from magic items (the Stegadon War spear comes to mind), just not items that effect "close combat" attacks.

Mid'ean
11-08-2011, 11:15
Cool. So then Impact hits do not count towards CR......:shifty:......:wtf:

Frosty_TK
12-08-2011, 06:27
If it wasn't for the last paragraph of the impact hits rules, you would be right. Alas, you are not, Mid'ean.