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fruitystu
07-08-2011, 21:30
Just a thought really.

I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but would you like to see something akin to Chapter Tactics for the Chaos legions? Not entirely sure which would suit which and so on, but it's an idea!

Okuto
07-08-2011, 21:34
errrr.....

-our old legion rules were basically "chapter tactics"

-also we never adapted that righteous fool Gulliman's little book

-Chaos isn't that organized...or formal....chapter tactics would be silly

fruitystu
07-08-2011, 21:39
Fluff aside, I'm thinking it would just be a cool way to represent the foibles of the various Legions. Put a bit of flavour back into Chaos, without requiring the extensive (and often highly abusable) seperate lists we saw in the previous book.

Okuto
07-08-2011, 21:51
so by cutting and pasting something from the smurf book to the chaos book makes adds favor to us?

Legion rules are chapter tactics......chapter tactics just makes us chaos marine feel more like spikey beakies......

chapter tactics is what makes those loyalist dogs special, if they gave that to us then what makes those loyalist pigs so special besides storm shields/storm bolters, etc...

So no.....I think it's safe to assume most of us Chaos marine players just want some sort of legion rules back.....it's silly to give us chapter tactics ala our loyalist brethren and to even use the term chapter tactics......

Just using the term chapter tactics feels like an excuse to create a new topic about what sort of legion rules you guys want without using the actual term "legion rules" which has been a common topic posted in the years

Azmodan666
07-08-2011, 21:51
lets just hope that codex: chaos legions rumours are true.
and you shall have your wish

Okuto
07-08-2011, 21:54
indeed

"Legion rules"

fruitystu
07-08-2011, 21:58
so by cutting and pasting something from the smurf book to the chaos book makes adds favor to us?

Legion rules are chapter tactics......chapter tactics just makes us chaos marine feel more like spikey beakies......

chapter tactics is what makes those loyalist dogs special, if they gave that to us then what makes those loyalist pigs so special besides storm shields/storm bolters, etc...

So no.....I think it's safe to assume most of us Chaos marine players just want some sort of legion rules back.....it's silly to give us chapter tactics ala our loyalist brethren and to even use the term chapter tactics......

Just using the term chapter tactics feels like an excuse to create a new topic about what sort of legion rules you guys want without using the actual term "legion rules" which has been a common topic posted in the years

Thing is, the Legion Lists were wee bit broken. Take Iron Warriors. I could swap out 2 Fast Attack for another Heavy Support, and could also take lots of Obliterators. Now, consider what constitued Fast Attack back then. Daemon Packs, which Iron Warriors couldn't take, 0-1 Raptors (which were awesome!) and Bikers. Now, Bikers are a bit naff, and I can only take a single unit of Raptors anyways. So where was the actual trade? It was a no-brainer!

And that wasn't the only duff one. Much as the Smurfs lost their 'divergent chapter' rules, it just won't come back in the way that many expect. Sure the name chapter tactics doesn't suit, but perhaps something like 'Legion Traits' or 'Legacy Of The Primarch'?

Okuto
07-08-2011, 22:08
The legion rules had some iron warrior bias in there no doubt about that but you should pick better terms..chapter tactics is a poor choice of wording

It's a topic that been discussed here over and over again, the first and main thing we would want is just anything that was "physically" in the book ala things were actually bought and painted and for some reason can't use anymore.

These would be things like dark apostles, cultists, bassie, daemons(furies/nurglings), weapon options(sonic weapons on termis/dreads) and the like

But hopefully our prayers to the dark gods will be answered and Mr. Ward will give us a sexy over the top Chaos marine codex

DuskRaider
07-08-2011, 23:07
To say the Legions don't use tactics is foolish. To give each Legion special traits or abilities would actually be the best way to go about it.

fruitystu
07-08-2011, 23:21
If I'm reading his posts right, it's more the semantics of what you actually call the mechanism, rather than objecting to the mech itself..

Chem-Dog
07-08-2011, 23:33
Yes that's about the size of it.

Anyway, I'm sure that a vast percentage of CSM players who play a Legion would love their own Legion's character expressed in the game.
Something to differentiate the silver bad space marine men from the green bad space marine men.

Make it a set of rules that can be purchased by a Lord to give everyone who doesn't play a Khorne army a reason to take a lord.

fruitystu
07-08-2011, 23:43
I quite like that to be honest. Linking possible traits to certain marks. For instance, I can't see Khorne, Slaanesh or Nurgle really adopting 'Stealth' tactics. Tzeentch, much more so (glamours and that) and undivided? Most definitely!

And thinking of Khorne in particularly...whilst all Bezerkers are Khornate, not all Khornate are beserkers. So perhaps a Khorne Lord could choose to pass on Furious Charge (Bezerkers) or Preferred Enemy (honourable combat).

Hmmm...any other thoughts as to which skill for which mark? I do like the idea of having multiple options open to a player, to stop all armies being exactly the same!

Joewrightgm
07-08-2011, 23:45
I think to make things distinct, they need to be able to purchase special rules for a points cost, like 1 per squad, more 'built-in' abilities with marks. That would allow people to really build 'their' army they way they want, and really, what the 3.5 books of chaos were are simply special rule sets applied to the whole army.

TheConverter15
08-08-2011, 00:06
Maybe something like "Legion Traits" with special rules and unlocks for each HQ choice.

What I'm hoping for is more of a Codex:Renegades and individual legion books, bit like what the loyalists have now

Wyrmwood
08-08-2011, 00:36
The old Legion rules could be broken, as could the organisational shifts and wargear/deamonic gift allocations. I didn't see it back then, I saw excellent ways to customise my force. But to be honest, look at Codex: Space Wolves and even Codex: Imperial Guard, some 'builds' and units within those books are horribly broken, moreso than the Chaos Legions *ever* were.

Besides that, the only heavy support option worth taking these days is Obliterators, didn't you know that? :shifty:

But anyway, in the spirit of this thread, I propose the following:
1). Do not make special characters the requisite to unlocking the Legion system that you want. It creates a force of bland clones, and eventually these characters are shoehorned into every list and become reflected as 2D stereotypes.
2). A 'Mark' system as follows:
The Marks of Chaos: This is first applied to the Chaos Lord - not Lieutenant - leading the army which then defines what the rest of your force can/not take or unlock, no more of that Icon malarky. From then the Mark of Khorne, for example, can be upgraded to 'Mark of the Butcher' (or something) which unlocks World Eaters. This is different to the Mark of Khorne. For example, while your Khornate Chaos Space Marines gain furious charge, your World Eater Chaos Space Marines also gain 'Rage' or something. While this might seem to make the Mark of Khorne redundant, it doesn't - it means that the World Eaters are less predictable, less controllable than their simply Khornate brethren. You can't rely on them to, say, hold a position as they might go off the rails, they might even attack each other once the combat is won. The Mark of Chaos Undivided can be upgraded into 'Mark of the Zealot', 'Mark of Fear', 'Mark of the Titan' and 'Mark of the Hydra' for the undivided Legions - if you so choose.
This is done through the Chaos Lord, this restricts some unit options and upgrades. For example, a Lord with 'Mark of the Hydra' cannot unlock dedicated Khorne Berzerkers whereas a Lord with 'Mark of the Titan' can, as there is a reference to such troops being employed by the Iron Warriors in Index Astartes. Instead, he unlocks Operatives and his Veterans can outflank, for example. But he cannot, unlike the 'Mark of Titan' Lord, unlock a Basilisk or something.

From the Lord down, the entire army can be tailored to any Legion/Warband you like through different gains and losses of wargear and ability etc.

agurus1
08-08-2011, 01:58
The old Legion rules could be broken, as could the organisational shifts and wargear/deamonic gift allocations. I didn't see it back then, I saw excellent ways to customise my force. But to be honest, look at Codex: Space Wolves and even Codex: Imperial Guard, some 'builds' and units within those books are horribly broken, moreso than the Chaos Legions *ever* were.

Besides that, the only heavy support option worth taking these days is Obliterators, didn't you know that? :shifty:

But anyway, in the spirit of this thread, I propose the following:
1). Do not make special characters the requisite to unlocking the Legion system that you want. It creates a force of bland clones, and eventually these characters are shoehorned into every list and become reflected as 2D stereotypes.
2). A 'Mark' system as follows:
The Marks of Chaos: This is first applied to the Chaos Lord - not Lieutenant - leading the army which then defines what the rest of your force can/not take or unlock, no more of that Icon malarky. From then the Mark of Khorne, for example, can be upgraded to 'Mark of the Butcher' (or something) which unlocks World Eaters. This is different to the Mark of Khorne. For example, while your Khornate Chaos Space Marines gain furious charge, your World Eater Chaos Space Marines also gain 'Rage' or something. While this might seem to make the Mark of Khorne redundant, it doesn't - it means that the World Eaters are less predictable, less controllable than their simply Khornate brethren. You can't rely on them to, say, hold a position as they might go off the rails, they might even attack each other once the combat is won. The Mark of Chaos Undivided can be upgraded into 'Mark of the Zealot', 'Mark of Fear', 'Mark of the Titan' and 'Mark of the Hydra' for the undivided Legions - if you so choose.
This is done through the Chaos Lord, this restricts some unit options and upgrades. For example, a Lord with 'Mark of the Hydra' cannot unlock dedicated Khorne Berzerkers whereas a Lord with 'Mark of the Titan' can, as there is a reference to such troops being employed by the Iron Warriors in Index Astartes. Instead, he unlocks Operatives and his Veterans can outflank, for example. But he cannot, unlike the 'Mark of Titan' Lord, unlock a Basilisk or something.

From the Lord down, the entire army can be tailored to any Legion/Warband you like through different gains and losses of wargear and ability etc.

can you sign up to work in GamesWorkshop rules/codex development dept?:angel:

Mannimarco
08-08-2011, 02:03
The old Legion rules could be broken, as could the organisational shifts and wargear/deamonic gift allocations. I didn't see it back then, I saw excellent ways to customise my force. But to be honest, look at Codex: Space Wolves and even Codex: Imperial Guard, some 'builds' and units within those books are horribly broken, moreso than the Chaos Legions *ever* were.

Besides that, the only heavy support option worth taking these days is Obliterators, didn't you know that? :shifty:

But anyway, in the spirit of this thread, I propose the following:
1). Do not make special characters the requisite to unlocking the Legion system that you want. It creates a force of bland clones, and eventually these characters are shoehorned into every list and become reflected as 2D stereotypes.
2). A 'Mark' system as follows:
The Marks of Chaos: This is first applied to the Chaos Lord - not Lieutenant - leading the army which then defines what the rest of your force can/not take or unlock, no more of that Icon malarky. From then the Mark of Khorne, for example, can be upgraded to 'Mark of the Butcher' (or something) which unlocks World Eaters. This is different to the Mark of Khorne. For example, while your Khornate Chaos Space Marines gain furious charge, your World Eater Chaos Space Marines also gain 'Rage' or something. While this might seem to make the Mark of Khorne redundant, it doesn't - it means that the World Eaters are less predictable, less controllable than their simply Khornate brethren. You can't rely on them to, say, hold a position as they might go off the rails, they might even attack each other once the combat is won. The Mark of Chaos Undivided can be upgraded into 'Mark of the Zealot', 'Mark of Fear', 'Mark of the Titan' and 'Mark of the Hydra' for the undivided Legions - if you so choose.
This is done through the Chaos Lord, this restricts some unit options and upgrades. For example, a Lord with 'Mark of the Hydra' cannot unlock dedicated Khorne Berzerkers whereas a Lord with 'Mark of the Titan' can, as there is a reference to such troops being employed by the Iron Warriors in Index Astartes. Instead, he unlocks Operatives and his Veterans can outflank, for example. But he cannot, unlike the 'Mark of Titan' Lord, unlock a Basilisk or something.

From the Lord down, the entire army can be tailored to any Legion/Warband you like through different gains and losses of wargear and ability etc.

If warseer had a reputation button.........

Sternguard777
08-08-2011, 04:35
But anyway, in the spirit of this thread, I propose the following:
1). Do not make special characters the requisite to unlocking the Legion system that you want. It creates a force of bland clones, and eventually these characters are shoehorned into every list and become reflected as 2D stereotypes.
2). A 'Mark' system as follows:
The Marks of Chaos: This is first applied to the Chaos Lord - not Lieutenant - leading the army which then defines what the rest of your force can/not take or unlock, no more of that Icon malarky. From then the Mark of Khorne, for example, can be upgraded to 'Mark of the Butcher' (or something) which unlocks World Eaters. This is different to the Mark of Khorne. For example, while your Khornate Chaos Space Marines gain furious charge, your World Eater Chaos Space Marines also gain 'Rage' or something. While this might seem to make the Mark of Khorne redundant, it doesn't - it means that the World Eaters are less predictable, less controllable than their simply Khornate brethren. You can't rely on them to, say, hold a position as they might go off the rails, they might even attack each other once the combat is won. The Mark of Chaos Undivided can be upgraded into 'Mark of the Zealot', 'Mark of Fear', 'Mark of the Titan' and 'Mark of the Hydra' for the undivided Legions - if you so choose.
This is done through the Chaos Lord, this restricts some unit options and upgrades. For example, a Lord with 'Mark of the Hydra' cannot unlock dedicated Khorne Berzerkers whereas a Lord with 'Mark of the Titan' can, as there is a reference to such troops being employed by the Iron Warriors in Index Astartes. Instead, he unlocks Operatives and his Veterans can outflank, for example. But he cannot, unlike the 'Mark of Titan' Lord, unlock a Basilisk or something.

From the Lord down, the entire army can be tailored to any Legion/Warband you like through different gains and losses of wargear and ability etc.

Nice system, i'm sure GW will promptly ignore it :rolleyes:

Askari
08-08-2011, 08:04
... see above ...

I've never seen why each Legion should get their own Mark, the Marks of the Gods are there because of the more special treatment you get for being dedicated to one purpose.

That said, my own Mark of Chaos Undivided idea was that it gifted a USR - chosen at army list stage - which applies to all Mark of Chaos Undivided units in the army. USRs included Tank Hunters (for Iron Warriors), Stubborn (for the Black Legion/Word Bearers), Infiltrate (for the Alpha Legion), Hit and Run (for the Night Lords).

Restricted options are so last decade - I'm not in favour of this. Not every Iron Warriors warband wield Basilisks, and there's really no reason why another Legion couldn't use one anyway, and NINE unique units which are mutually exclusive to one Mark is a terrible idea. I'd rather have units which are customizable to be any Legion you wish.

Besides, there are occasions where Khorne Berserkers rub shoulders with the Thousand Sons, my army should be able to reflect that if I want. Ideally they'd would just make it viable to take a mono-God army, but also able to take whatever you damn well please.

TheLaughingGod
08-08-2011, 10:13
No. This idea is flawed.

Traitor Marines are jaded and hardened, represented by higher leadership, but they've given up their oaths. They KNOW fear. Their rebellion failed. Their leader was obliterated. The Chaos Gods abandoned them and they fled to a place of nightmares and damnation.

They are barely sane, much less disciplined. They are now a brutal rabble of heretics, blasphemers and traitors. They've lost any semblance of discipline or order. They might fight like trained and experienced soldiers, but they're out for themselves now. They preserve themselves above all else. They can't even rely on their fickle gods, and they know this. When Chaos is with them, they are brave, but when it appears they have been abandoned, they turn tail and flee like the cowardly dogs they are.

I'm completely against the idea of Chaos Marines gaining any sort of ability that reflects their pre-treason training/weaponry/abilities. They threw that all away to join Chaos. They should be armed with mutant warp things and strange sorceries, not advanced imperial tech. They are a rabble, disorganized warbands, held together with fear and greed, not a unified military.

Chaos marines should have Fear Tactics, not Combat Tactics. They should seek to demoralize and cow the enemy, they do not WANT a fair fight, nor could they survive one. They will rely on fear tactics, surprise, treachery, corruption, daemonic pacts and summonings and foul magicks. That's how Chaos should play.

There ARE no Legions. They've fallen into disarray. They operate without any real leadership now. Alpha Legionaries are carrying out whatever missions they had, because they believe they are part of a greater plan, isolated cells cut off from their brothers. World Eaters join Warbands for the glory of Khorne. Tzeench Sorcerors lead bands of Thousand Sons on quests to find greater power and sorcery, former Death Guard shuffle through Imperial worlds spreading Papa Nurgles blessing. Even Abaddon, the Everchosen can barely strap together an army to face the Imperium every half a millenia or so.

No, I don't think we should see any rules that mirror the Imperial counterparts of the CSM. They should have their own rules to reflect their new way of existence. Maybe: "Faithless and Forsaken." or "Every Man for Himself!"or "The Gods are Fickle..."

malisteen
08-08-2011, 12:11
I just want a codex with enough internal variety and internal balance that a range of fluffy armies are possible. Something where the mark of your leader influenced the troops available (an idea with long, long roots in chaos and its a shame the current book doesn't deliver on it where even the ork book does), something with cultists and mutant rabble as well as summoned daemons, lesser chaos marines (be they post-heresy renegade or newly made abominations created with stolen geneseed or through bile's vile methods), with heresy era cultists and legionairs either as rock hard elites (that become troops with the right mark) or as veteran commanders of the lesser forces of chaos.

Something that, overall, would be much closer to the Lost and the Damned list from Eye of Terror then either the overly complicated, overly heresy-era focused 3.5 codex or the bland tofu block of the 4e book.

DuskRaider
08-08-2011, 12:38
No. This idea is flawed.

Traitor Marines are jaded and hardened, represented by higher leadership, but they've given up their oaths. They KNOW fear. Their rebellion failed. Their leader was obliterated. The Chaos Gods abandoned them and they fled to a place of nightmares and damnation.

They are barely sane, much less disciplined. They are now a brutal rabble of heretics, blasphemers and traitors. They've lost any semblance of discipline or order. They might fight like trained and experienced soldiers, but they're out for themselves now. They preserve themselves above all else. They can't even rely on their fickle gods, and they know this. When Chaos is with them, they are brave, but when it appears they have been abandoned, they turn tail and flee like the cowardly dogs they are.

Ugh... I have to disagree with this on so many levels. I blame this attitude on the 4th Edition Codex. While some of the Legions are fractured and filled with insane psycopaths (see: World Eaters, Emperor's Children), many still have uniformity and use their skills they've known for 10,000 years, as it's all that they know or still hold onto from their glory days. I'm speaking of Legions like Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and definitely Word Bearers. Some Legions may have splintered into 2 or more factions, but they still adhere to their combat doctrines (Death Guard, Black Legion, Night Lords). You're giving them too little credit.


I'm completely against the idea of Chaos Marines gaining any sort of ability that reflects their pre-treason training/weaponry/abilities. They threw that all away to join Chaos. They should be armed with mutant warp things and strange sorceries, not advanced imperial tech. They are a rabble, disorganized warbands, held together with fear and greed, not a unified military.

Incorrect. As I've said prior, their Pre-Fall training is often all they have left from their glory days (and make no mistake, many still reflect upon their Pre-Heresy duty as such). Not much has changed with their tactics, except their not really held accountable for their actions. They use the same equipment they had 10,000 years ago. It's been repaired, gutted, salvaged, and modified to fit their needs. What they can't repair, they take from the battlefield or even their own brethren.I don't know where you're getting this 'disorganized rabble' BS, but it's simply not true. Read the fluff.



Chaos marines should have Fear Tactics, not Combat Tactics. They should seek to demoralize and cow the enemy, they do not WANT a fair fight, nor could they survive one. They will rely on fear tactics, surprise, treachery, corruption, daemonic pacts and summonings and foul magicks. That's how Chaos should play.

This I do agree with, on most points. Many Traitor Legionnaires do not want a fair fight. They will do whatever they can to obtain the upper hand from the get go. But you could also say the same against Loyalists as well. It's a legitimate tactic.




There ARE no Legions. They've fallen into disarray. They operate without any real leadership now. Alpha Legionaries are carrying out whatever missions they had, because they believe they are part of a greater plan, isolated cells cut off from their brothers. World Eaters join Warbands for the glory of Khorne. Tzeench Sorcerors lead bands of Thousand Sons on quests to find greater power and sorcery, former Death Guard shuffle through Imperial worlds spreading Papa Nurgles blessing. Even Abaddon, the Everchosen can barely strap together an army to face the Imperium every half a millenia or so.

No Legions? Hogwash. As I said earlier, some may have splintered, but you're still talking about warbands that outnumber a Loyalist Chapter 3 to 1. I can tell you don't read up on Chaos too much.


No, I don't think we should see any rules that mirror the Imperial counterparts of the CSM. They should have their own rules to reflect their new way of existence. Maybe: "Faithless and Forsaken." or "Every Man for Himself!"or "The Gods are Fickle..."

Nobody is necessarily calling for Chaos to mirror Loyalists. They're calling for rules, or 'tactics' to help give the feeling of what a Legion army would be like on the board.

Wyrmwood
08-08-2011, 13:45
I've never seen why each Legion should get their own Mark, the Marks of the Gods are there because of the more special treatment you get for being dedicated to one purpose.
The theory being that it would not simply be a Codex: Chaos Legions, but Codex: Chaos. Not every traitor marine is a member of one of the Legions, or at least a true member. One might be favoured by Khorne, but that doesn't make him a World Eater - it makes him a Khornate Space Marine. There will be organisational differences, and potentially a difference in quite how far gone the Space Marine is and, not to mention, he won't necessarily have the cerebral implants.

The series of Marks of Chaos, allows for non-Legion Chaos Space Marines while the Legion Marks (upgrades on the Marks of Chaos) reflects true 'Legionnaires'.They might not be current Legionnaires, as many of them have fractured - but they originated from that Legion, whether in an obscure Warband now or not.


That said, my own Mark of Chaos Undivided idea was that it gifted a USR - chosen at army list stage - which applies to all Mark of Chaos Undivided units in the army. USRs included Tank Hunters (for Iron Warriors), Stubborn (for the Black Legion/Word Bearers), Infiltrate (for the Alpha Legion), Hit and Run (for the Night Lords).
Simple and it could work. It would be too similar to the current Codex, in my mind. There'd be no reason for a design shift if you're just applying a copy/paste of combat tactics into Codex: Chaos Space Marines.


Restricted options are so last decade - I'm not in favour of this. Not every Iron Warriors warband wield Basilisks, and there's really no reason why another Legion couldn't use one anyway, and NINE unique units which are mutually exclusive to one Mark is a terrible idea. I'd rather have units which are customizable to be any Legion you wish.
True, but I wouldn't be in favour of restriction. The Iron Warriors would have the option of a Basilisk, hypothetically, but that doesn't mean they have to take it.
Since when did I say nine to each Mark? That seems to have come from nowhere. :eyebrows: Aside from that, you're extrapolating in the wrong direction! Not every 'Legion Mark' would garner unique FOC options, but some would. Others would unlock a specialised unit choice for that Legion, while the regular Marks would be simply that - Marks conferring special rules.


Besides, there are occasions where Khorne Berserkers rub shoulders with the Thousand Sons, my army should be able to reflect that if I want. Ideally they'd would just make it viable to take a mono-God army, but also able to take whatever you damn well please.
Potentially, yeah. So take an Undivided Lord? I'll admit, this is to not explaining my idea fully but needless to say I'll be taking it over to Rules Development.

For a Legion focussed force, you take a Mark of Chaos on your Lord and then, in theory, upgrade that to the corresponding Legion Mark. This works four ways for Undivided, which represents Chaos Glory as well as 'faithless' - i.e, Iron Warriors.
If you take the Mark of Chaos Undivided, you can field Marked units as you could in the current Codex, but these Khornate Assault Troops/CSM w/Mark of Khorne won't be as good in assault as a dedicated World Eater Berzerker, but they will be less likely to go insane. Likewise, these Tzeentchian CSM will be less resilient than Rubric Marines, but are more versatile; these Tzeentchian Sorcerers are less practised than true Thousand Sons sorcerers, but you have an all encompassing FOC to compensate.

The Undivided Lord choice, lets his followers pick their own Marks but they'll never be as good in their specialisation as a Legion choice, but they'll arguably be more versatile. At least in theory. This isn't to say that proper Legion themed forces are restricted, but in the case of the World Eaters there's every chance they'll break ranks and assault, and fight one another when combat is won.

So, while there are 'legion' marks these can be used to represent break away warbands that came, at one point or another, from a Legion. This 'Codex' has an equal focus on Legion forces and Warbands.


(The LaughingGod's post) Ugh... I have to disagree with this on so many levels...
Sorry DuskRaider, I snipped your post to save on space! I think TheLaughingGod does have a point, but s/he's gone too far with it. The Legions don't exist in the same sense as they did before the Heresy, that trust is gone. The Legions of today are different beasts, and as you know are not all composed of Astartes that fought in the Horus Heresy. They do compensate for their lack of advanced technology, but not to the extent that TheLaughingGod has mentioned.

They are barely sane, but not in a batshit all over the place wacky madness; a much more sinister, deep wrought burning insanity that infects every action they make. Add to that, extreme focus - or not, in some cases - the Legionnaires are an extremely potent, dangerous and frightening threat. The idea that they're disordered on a person to person basis is quite silly, in my opinion. It means that there shouldn't be successful warbands - but there are. They're disorganised in the sense that there are many factions within the Eye and amongst the Astartes, and fear plays a big part. But not the cowardice TheLaughingGod describes - make them more desperate than afraid, as simple cowardice cheapens them too much and makes little sense.

TheLaughingGod's next point is a little... silly. Chaos Space Marines tend to use ancient technology, this isn't mutually exclusive with current technology which is much rarer to be found amongst the Chaos Space Marines, unless the Astartes are recently turned. I agree with DuskRaider.

Again, I agree. However, reading Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver isn't representative of all Chaos warbands, especially those that pass for Legions. ;) They can survive a fair fight, but the phyrric nature of such a victory, in some cases - as with all factions fighting 'fair' - means they would clearly rather employ other means.

aka_mythos
08-08-2011, 13:50
I think another thing that characterizes each of the different legions is how they deal with compensating for the lack of access to imperial grade technology. Whether its Word Bearers summoning daemons, or Alpha Legion using cultists to avoid directly engaging Imperial forces or the "big 4" hardening their troops with favor from their deities... its the same theme, they compensate for the lack of conventional imperial equipment. The Black Legion has built defiler daemon engines and Night Lords have been mentioned supplying Rengade marines.

crandall87
08-08-2011, 14:03
I just think something like making the cult troops elites and then adding something like 'If your army is led by a chaos lord with mark of khorne then Berserkers may be taken as a troop choice instead.

I don't really understand why people need to be spoonfed a fluffy army. You can take any chaos legion you want if you restrict yourself to only using the mark of one god or certain units. You don't need a codex to tell you to do it.

That said, bring back sonic weapons on everything for the EC!!

Carlosophy
08-08-2011, 14:08
Given 6E is rumoured to be rotating around characters and given the current codex pattern I fully expect characters = legions to be at the core of the Chaos Legions book. Ordinary Chaos Lords will be for those people who want to field a cross-sectional warband. The point of having a separate legions book is so people can field the characters from 10,000 years ago in the present day.

Id have the current character system but add on certain limitations with the rivalries, thus an undivided Lord could have any cult troops as 'troops' whereas your Kharn-led World Eaters force cannot include any models with the mark of slaanesh, but they gain +1 to summon marked daemons.
I expect:

Abaddon (Black Legion, Counts Terminators as Troops)
Kharn (World Eaters)
Typhus (Death Guard)
Ahriman (Thousand Sons)
Lucius (Emperors Children)
Fabius Bile (Undivided)
Warsmith Guy (Iron Warriors)
Captain Sevatar 'The Doomrider' (Night Lords, counts bikers as troops)
'Alpharius' (Alpha Legion namesake)
1st Chaplain Erebus (Word Bearers)

Brother of the Hydra
08-08-2011, 14:09
Maybe a Trait option; say you pay x points to unlock something specific....i.e.

NL - Extra fast attack slots
WE - Zerkers as troop choice
IW - Havocs as troop choice
WB - Possessed as troop choice
BL - Terminators as troop choice
AL - Chosen as troop choice
EC - NM as troop choice
DG - PM as troop choice
TS - All HQ must be Psykers & RM as troop choice

Personally I hope that they remove all Daemons inc DP & GD

aka_mythos
08-08-2011, 14:15
I just think something like making the cult troops elites and then adding something like 'If your army is led by a chaos lord with mark of khorne then Berserkers may be taken as a troop choice instead.

I don't really understand why people need to be spoonfed a fluffy army. You can take any chaos legion you want if you restrict yourself to only using the mark of one god or certain units. You don't need a codex to tell you to do it.

That said, bring back sonic weapons on everything for the EC!!
I think you're largely right. Alot of the vocal people want to see their army represented in an "Im uber" kind of way...

For me representing the legions is more a matter of thoroughness. In the same way the Imperial chapters are all fragments of the original legions the same is true of Chaos, and to the same degree chaos players should have the "zest" necessary to flavor their army appropriately. Its largely a matter of a few little things. For example, Iron Hands in the current Space Marine book are only represented by the presence of the Master of the Forge standing in as a Iron Father and venerable dreadnoughts... that's a good enough approach. Include cultists and you have Alpha legion, include more daemon variaty and you have Word Bearers.

aka_mythos
08-08-2011, 14:18
Maybe a Trait option; say you pay x points to unlock something specific....i.e.

NL - Extra fast attack slots
...
Maybe Raptors as troops or raptors as scoring?

Wyrmwood
08-08-2011, 14:23
I just think something like making the cult troops elites and then adding something like 'If your army is led by a chaos lord with mark of khorne then Berserkers may be taken as a troop choice instead.

I don't really understand why people need to be spoonfed a fluffy army. You can take any chaos legion you want if you restrict yourself to only using the mark of one god or certain units. You don't need a codex to tell you to do it.
See, I didn't see it that way. But you raise a legit point, nevertheless my thinking was it allowed someone to create the army that they wanted without any need for counts-as and to reflect what they see in the IP, not the other way around.


That said, bring back sonic weapons on everything for the EC!!
Agreed. But if you take this, then you're compromising and favouring one god/Legion. Say your Emperor's Children Lord allows Dreadnoughts to take a Blastmaster, your Chaos Space Marines to take Sonic Weapons, Sonic Predator etc, what about the other Legions?


I think you're largely right. Alot of the vocal people want to see their army represented in an "Im uber" kind of way...
Please explain, aka_mythos.


For me representing the legions is more a matter of thoroughness. In the same way the Imperial chapters are all fragments of the original legions the same is true of Chaos, and to the same degree chaos players should have the "zest" necessary to flavor their army appropriately.
Except that the Chaos Legions were not reorganised in correspondance with anything closely related to the Codex Astartes. You could compare the way that Warbands were formed from the original Legions, to the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes in a very loose way but similarity stops there.


Its largely a matter of a few little things. For example, Iron Hands in the current Space Marine book are only represented by the presence of the Master of the Forge standing in as a Iron Father and venerable dreadnoughts... that's a good enough approach. Include cultists and you have Alpha legion, include more daemon variaty and you have Word Bearers.
I think that many Iron Hand players would disagree with you, dude. Sure, you can model whatever you want within reason, but simple counts-as isn't really enough.

Brother of the Hydra
08-08-2011, 14:30
Maybe Raptors as troops or raptors as scoring?

My list is by no means perfect nor definitative. Yea something along those lines, I would need to thrash the ideas about in my head to come up with reasonable traits.

I think this could cover the Legions in a codex, however the traitor chapters confound me; I say use C:SM. :angel:

Bonzai
08-08-2011, 14:43
My biggest complaint with the whole Chapter Tactics thing, is that it is based off of characters. Raven Guard suddenly stop being fleet if Shrike isn't leading them personally, White Skars can't outflank without Khan, etc....

For me, Chaos Legions should have some special trates and restrictions.

Black Legion: Can freely take any unit without restriction. No other special benefits.

Word Bearers: +1 to reserve rolls for Daemons. Any model in a unit may be sacrificed for a Greater Daemon. Special Unit: Dark Apostle. Restrictions: May only take units with Marks of Chaos Glory.

Iron Warriors: Obliterators may be taken as an elite choice. Special Unit: Warsmith. Restriction: May only take units with no marks, or marks of Chaos Glory.

Night Lords: Raptors may be taken as a troop choice. Acute Senses. Reduce Deep Strike scatter to a D6. Special Unit: None. Restrictions: The only marks that they may take are chaos glory.

Alpha Legion: Infiltrate special rule. Special unit: Cultists can take a single heavy weapon in their squad. Restrictions: Only can take marks of chaos glory.

World Eaters: Counter Assault special rule. Special Unit: blood slaughterer. Restrictions: May only take units with the Mark of Korne.

Thousand Sons: When rolling to over come psychic defenses, roll an extra leadership test instead. If successful, the power goes off as normal. Special Units: Rubic Terminators. Restrictions: May only take units with Mark of Tzeentch.

Death Guard: All bolt weapons are poisoned, 4+. Special unit: Plague Zombies. Restrictions: May only take units with Mark of Nurgle.

Emperors Children: Hit and run special rule. Special unit: Sonic weapons brought back. Restrictions: May only take units with Mark of Slaanesh.

omegoku
08-08-2011, 15:40
The problem with the Chaos book is that if everyone gets all the options they want, you have more options in each squad than some codex have in the whole book!
That said, if anyone codex should be the most option filled, it should be chaos.

I would go for something like this
All Chaos forces are led by a Chaos Lord, and the Lord forges those around him into a fighting unit to his own tastes.
Chaos Lord is a 1 unit (must take one and only 1)
The Chaos Lord may take one of the following
-Mark of Chaos Undivided (Black Legion/Recent traitors) - All units in codex are as they are in FOC, no restrictions
-Mark of Khorne (Beserkers become troops, Lord gains +1 A)
-World Eater (Beserkers become troops, Lord gains Furious Charge, +1 A, All units not marked Khorne or unmarked become a 0-1 choice, Terminators may take World Eater upgrade for Furious charge and +1 A, any unit may exchange its bolter for chainsword, may replace its heavy weapon with power weapon)
-Mark of Slannesh(Noise Marines become troops, Lord gains sonic weapons, +1 I)
-Emperors Children (Noise Marines become troops, Lord gains sonic weapons, +1 I, Allure of Slannesh, Terminators may take Emperors Child upgrade for onic weapons, +1 I, Allure of Slannesh, all units that are unmarked or not marked Slannesh become 0-1, all vehicles may replace weapons with sonic weapons)

the other option is making every unit with loads of options

Predator
Armed with Autocannon
-May replace Autocannon with Twin Lascannon, Lascannon and twin plasma, blast master.
-May take sponsons with heavy bolters, lascannons or sonic weapons
-May take extra armour, daemonic possession, dozer blades, dirge caster, rotating blades, etc



Neither way is ideal. As it will be very complex to make out a list with them, and the opponent will have to keep track of it all too!
At least with the first option it keeps the power gamers from making a predator with Sonic weapon sponsons and khornate spinning blades on the front..

No matter what GW do, it is going to be a very tough sell to everyone

DuskRaider
08-08-2011, 15:40
Sorry DuskRaider, I snipped your post to save on space! I think TheLaughingGod does have a point, but s/he's gone too far with it. The Legions don't exist in the same sense as they did before the Heresy, that trust is gone. The Legions of today are different beasts, and as you know are not all composed of Astartes that fought in the Horus Heresy. They do compensate for their lack of advanced technology, but not to the extent that TheLaughingGod has mentioned.

The Legions definitely don't exist as they did. There are some that are broken into smaller warbands, but even then a lot of these are merely Companies & Chapters that have broken off to serve their own agenda, but at the end of the day, they will heed their Primarch or Legion's call if need be. Word Bearers and Iron Warriors are a good example.

Another good example is World Eaters. They've splintered into so many subfactions, chapters, and warbands it's not funny. But look at when Angron attacked Armageddon... he was able to call (most of) them all together to form a cohesive Legion once more. To think they're all slavering mindless psychopaths who have forsaken their own origins, let alone ranged combat, is insane in and of itself. That's another issue with how two dimensional the Legions have become, but let's save that for another topic.


They are barely sane, but not in a batshit all over the place wacky madness; a much more sinister, deep wrought burning insanity that infects every action they make. Add to that, extreme focus - or not, in some cases - the Legionnaires are an extremely potent, dangerous and frightening threat. The idea that they're disordered on a person to person basis is quite silly, in my opinion. It means that there shouldn't be successful warbands - but there are. They're disorganised in the sense that there are many factions within the Eye and amongst the Astartes, and fear plays a big part. But not the cowardice TheLaughingGod describes - make them more desperate than afraid, as simple cowardice cheapens them too much and makes little sense.

I see many of them being extremely paranoid, depending on the Legion. Iron Warriors were already notoriously paranoid before the Long War, I think it's just become worse. I can't see Death Guard being overall that paranoid, as I've said before, they have more or less kept their Legion structure, with the exception of Typhus and his followers. Many have their own personal gains and goals in interest, they will do what they have to in order to make those goals become reality, up to and including stabbing their brother in the back. But if you think about it, this animosity was prevalent Pre-Heresy, only difference is there were consequences for raising your weapon on your brethren. No consequences = no holding back. Many have deep regrets for what they did, and many know that their main goal at this point is survival. Perhaps to the point where they've abandoned the idea of toppling the Imperium, and more strike out due to desperation or bitterness. They are definitely not cowards by any means. They live in the Warp after all, you've got to have some brass ones to do that.


TheLaughingGod's next point is a little... silly. Chaos Space Marines tend to use ancient technology, this isn't mutually exclusive with current technology which is much rarer to be found amongst the Chaos Space Marines, unless the Astartes are recently turned. I agree with DuskRaider.

I see the Traitor Legions using a lot of exotic pattern weaponry, or weaponry that simply no longer exists in Imperium munitions or even in their memories. Take the recent Contemptor and it's weapon options being released. A lot of that stuff we look at and don't really recognize, but it's been there for thousands of years! The Imperium see it as well and have no clue what it is, but the Legions would be very keen on what they are, how to use and even manufacture these arms. We need to remember, the Astartes weren't the only ones who fractured from the Imperium. The Mechanicus also divided, those who joined the ranks of Horus' forces were much more open-minded to the idea of using alternate means of technology. Instead of coming to a stand still or even regressing like their brethren loyal to the Imperium, they have constantly improved upon technology and even incorporated Daemonancy into it. Seeing Devastators with Conversion Beamers should be a possibility, along with Shunters, exotic daemon-powered arms, etc. If anything, the Legions would be better armed than their Imperial counterparts.


Again, I agree. However, reading Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver isn't representative of all Chaos warbands, especially those that pass for Legions. ;) They can survive a fair fight, but the phyrric nature of such a victory, in some cases - as with all factions fighting 'fair' - means they would clearly rather employ other means.

No, ADB's Night Lord series may be an exception, but even then you see in-fighting. However, at the end of the day, they have a sense of preserving their history and Legion, which you also saw in the eyes of the other Night Lords they came across (with the exception Raptors, but they're a bit... nutty).

aka_mythos
08-08-2011, 15:58
Please explain, aka_mythos. There is a small but vocal group that when they talk about what it wrong with the current codex, they want something thats effectively like the old codex, which was too much... or they want something outright broken.



Except that the Chaos Legions were not reorganised in correspondance with anything closely related to the Codex Astartes. You could compare the way that Warbands were formed from the original Legions, to the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes in a very loose way but similarity stops there.The chaos legions were not organized by Imperial doctrine... correct, but everything of how the legions fought during the heresy was retained with the exception of the equipment that deteriorated, and thus did however organize themselve around the resources at hand. The legions splintered, but just because a Word Bearer left his legion doesn't mean he threw out his experiance and expertise. Its much the same that second founding marine chapters retain the essence of their progentiors.



I think that many Iron Hand players would disagree with you, dude. Sure, you can model whatever you want within reason, but simple counts-as isn't really enough.I think it'd be great if every chapter and every legion with any degree of significant following had its own codex, but that isn't realistic. GW is a company with a finite level of resources. I wrote an Iron Hands codex for my older brother to use in our friendly games... it shows it can be done in a fair and characteful way... but if you accept that a codex is only so many pages and space has to be split between so many chapters with so many pages going to Ultramarines... somethings obviously have to be left out... and you have to accept what is "good enough" to convey the flavor of the army... even if it isn't enough to fully represent every facet of the army in a fluffy way.

GW will never be able to compete with the imaginations of it's fan base. When it has a page or less to convey the jist of an idea, people will invent their own ideas that feed off that printed idea. In the past whether it was Rogue Trader, 2nd Ed, 3rd or 4th... there was even less rules to go on and that was good enough.

Askari
08-08-2011, 16:01
The theory being that it would not simply be a Codex: Chaos Legions, but Codex: Chaos. Not every traitor marine is a member of one of the Legions, or at least a true member. One might be favoured by Khorne, but that doesn't make him a World Eater - it makes him a Khornate Space Marine. There will be organisational differences, and potentially a difference in quite how far gone the Space Marine is and, not to mention, he won't necessarily have the cerebral implants.

I agree here, this is why perhaps a two-tier Mark system would work, i.e. an 'Icon' of Khorne (though you cannot lose it, as currently) which gives Assault-based goodness, and a true Mark of Khorne, which makes you a Berserker.


The series of Marks of Chaos, allows for non-Legion Chaos Space Marines while the Legion Marks (upgrades on the Marks of Chaos) reflects true 'Legionnaires'.They might not be current Legionnaires, as many of them have fractured - but they originated from that Legion, whether in an obscure Warband now or not.

But the point of the Marks is their gifts gained by turning to Chaos, there is no Chaos God of the Night Lords, so they should not have their own Mark. However, they may benefit from the Mark of Chaos Undivided like I suggested.


True, but I wouldn't be in favour of restriction. The Iron Warriors would have the option of a Basilisk, hypothetically, but that doesn't mean they have to take it.

Yet you say in a few posts later giving the Emperor's Children access to Sonic Weapons is unfair? How is giving the Iron Warriors alone access to a Basilisk any different?


Since when did I say nine to each Mark? That seems to have come from nowhere. :eyebrows: Aside from that, you're extrapolating in the wrong direction! Not every 'Legion Mark' would garner unique FOC options, but some would. Others would unlock a specialised unit choice for that Legion, while the regular Marks would be simply that - Marks conferring special rules.

Sorry if I wrote that poorly, what I meant was that you'll be putting nine units in the book, only one of which you can use at any one time due to the Mark restrictions placed on them. Nine units which are mutually exclusive to one another - what a waste of space in the book - why not have one unit (such as Chosen) which, with the right Mark applied, makes them into specialized units. For example;

Chosen, Mark of Khorne = Super Berserkers that beat nigh anyone in assault with their selection of combat weapons.

Chosen, Mark of Chaos Undivided (Infiltrate) = Versatile infiltrating troops with access to powerful special weapons and begin each game up close.

Chosen, Mark of Tzeentch = Grey Knights-style psychic squad with a variety of special weaponry.

How's it work? Chosen have improved stats and unlimited access to special weapons/special CC weapons. The only difference in purpose is what YOU choose as a Mark to give them.



Potentially, yeah. So take an Undivided Lord? I'll admit, this is to not explaining my idea fully but needless to say I'll be taking it over to Rules Development.

But why do I have to restrict myself to an Undivided Lord just to take more than one Mark? Even the 3.5 Edition Codex did not have such serious restriction. Surely it's simpler, and offers much more variety, to make units containing the same Mark as a Chaos Lord become Troops. Others remain Elites. So I can have Berserkers in a Nurgle army, but they won't score. Sounds fine to me.

aka_mythos
08-08-2011, 16:12
I think once you start to go that far you seriously have to think about breaking larger and larger chunks off to make new codices as it gets fairly crowded, in a way that doesn't distinguish the army as a whole, but only particular facets of it.



I see the Traitor Legions using a lot of exotic pattern weaponry, or weaponry that simply no longer exists in Imperium munitions or even in their memories. Take the recent Contemptor and it's weapon options being released. A lot of that stuff we look at and don't really recognize, but it's been there for thousands of years! ... The Mechanicus also divided, those who joined the ranks of Horus' forces were much more open-minded to the idea of using alternate means of technology. Instead of coming to a stand still or even regressing like their brethren loyal to the Imperium, they have constantly improved upon technology and even incorporated Daemonancy into it. Seeing Devastators with Conversion Beamers should be a possibility, along with Shunters, exotic daemon-powered arms, etc. If anything, the Legions would be better armed than their Imperial counterparts.
I think this is something GW's designers have failed to grasp. Chaos legions are largely marines out of a different era of time. That should define them. Certain weapons and vehicles make sense like the Contemptor; conversion beamer might be going a bit too far as it requires Imperial maintainance, but I imagine chaos would have something similar. I imagine things like the conversion beamer being traded off for easier to maintain but similarly devestating forms of chaotic daemon weapons.

As you point out Chaos walked off with 50% of the adeptus mechanicus... something GW forgets too often. If the remaining loyalist 50% could cobble together all the loyalist variants of vehicles, the Chaos Mechanicus unfettered from imperial dogma should be able to achieve much more. The nature of what that "much more" is should be part of what defines chaos. Obviously the dark Mechanicum has its hands in the Defiler, Obliterators, and other daemon weapons... but their should be more than that.

Wyrmwood
08-08-2011, 16:25
But the point of the Marks is their gifts gained by turning to Chaos, there is no Chaos God of the Night Lords, so they should not have their own Mark. However, they may benefit from the Mark of Chaos Undivided like I suggested.
It functions like a Mark, but isn't literal a Mark of Chaos. It's a specialisation to represent that Legion within a true Mark of Chaos. I used the term 'Mark' for simplicity, not literally 'Mark of the Night Lord (god)'.


Yet you say in a few posts later giving the Emperor's Children access to Sonic Weapons is unfair? How is giving the Iron Warriors alone access to a Basilisk any different?
I got the implication that all he wanted was Emperor's Children to have Sonic Weapons, with the other Legions being neglected. I used the Iron Warriors as an example of a hypothetical unit 'unlock', though I've come to prefer the idea of unit alterations over straight up unlocking.


Sorry if I wrote that poorly, what I meant was that you'll be putting nine units in the book, only one of which you can use at any one time due to the Mark restrictions placed on them. Nine units which are mutually exclusive to one another - what a waste of space in the book - why not have one unit (such as Chosen) which, with the right Mark applied, makes them into specialized units. For example;
No problem, but what I said was:

Not every 'Legion Mark' would garner unique FOC options, but some would. Others would unlock a specialised unit choice for that Legion, while the regular Marks would be simply that - Marks conferring special rules.
An existing unit that changes specialisation.


Chosen, Mark of Khorne = Super Berserkers that beat nigh anyone in assault with their selection of combat weapons.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, they're not 'Super Berzerkers' and they can't beat nigh on anyone. Your succumbing to hyperbole. What I said was, they further benefit from a Rage type mechanic, as well as Furious Charge. This means that while they'll be strong assault troops, they won't be able to hold a line or objective with any degree of reliability as they succumb to the implants within their cortex. They're specialised, but less versatile.


Chosen, Mark of Chaos Undivided (Infiltrate) = Versatile infiltrating troops with access to powerful special weapons and begin each game up close.

Chosen, Mark of Tzeentch = Grey Knights-style psychic squad with a variety of special weaponry.
That sounds cool, like a Sorcerer Coven.


But why do I have to restrict myself to an Undivided Lord just to take more than one Mark? Even the 3.5 Edition Codex did not have such serious restriction. Surely it's simpler, and offers much more variety, to make units containing the same Mark as a Chaos Lord become Troops. Others remain Elites. So I can have Berserkers in a Nurgle army, but they won't score. Sounds fine to me.
Huh? I don't see it as a 'serious restriction' when taking that Undivided Lord allows you to essentially build a force of everything?
Having the bestest of everything all at once, sounds a bit like cheese to me. I don't know if you meant to insinuate that, but that's how it's coming across. Ultimately, there will be restriction in some way.
I don't think that taking a Khornate Lord should mean you can't take Havocs, nor should having a World Eater Lord mean you can't take them either. In this case, it could alter their weapon options to - in the case of the World Eaters - assault weapons.


There is a small but vocal group that when they talk about what it wrong with the current codex, they want something thats effectively like the old codex, which was too much... or they want something outright broken.
Different, versatile, expansive - but not broken or overpowered. It's true, some do, but that's no different to a minority of players for any other Codex.


The chaos legions were not organized by Imperial doctrine... correct, but everything of how the legions fought during the heresy was retained with the exception of the equipment that deteriorated, and thus did however organize themselve around the resources at hand. The legions splintered, but just because a Word Bearer left his legion doesn't mean he threw out his experiance and expertise. Its much the same that second founding marine chapters retain the essence of their progentiors.
I agree, but the Chaos Legions still exist - in a way. The loyalist legions do not, as most succumbed to the Codex Astartes in very key ways. That isn't to say that the Codex is strictly limited, but there is far less uniformity prevailant within the Chaos Astartes. So 'zest' becomes 'flavour'.


I think it'd be great if every chapter and every legion with any degree of significant following had its own codex, but that isn't realistic. GW is a company with a finite level of resources. I wrote an Iron Hands codex for my older brother to use in our friendly games... it shows it can be done in a fair and characteful way... but if you accept that a codex is only so many pages and space has to be split between so many chapters with so many pages going to Ultramarines... somethings obviously have to be left out... and you have to accept what is "good enough" to convey the flavor of the army... even if it isn't enough to fully represent every facet of the army in a fluffy way.
One book with the right design philosophy is enough, in my opinion. Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3.5 had issues, and the Legion lists it offered were fairly 'cookie-cutter', but it was close.


GW will never be able to compete with the imaginations of it's fan base. When it has a page or less to convey the jist of an idea, people will invent their own ideas that feed off that printed idea. In the past whether it was Rogue Trader, 2nd Ed, 3rd or 4th... there was even less rules to go on and that was good enough.
I disagree, but I can't really extrapolate for now. I will later though, dude!


I think once you start to go that far you seriously have to think about breaking larger and larger chunks off to make new codices as it gets fairly crowded, in a way that doesn't distinguish the army as a whole, but only particular facets of it.

I think this is something GW's designers have failed to grasp. Chaos legions are largely marines out of a different era of time. That should define them. Certain weapons and vehicles make sense like the Contemptor; conversion beamer might be going a bit too far as it requires Imperial maintainance, but I imagine chaos would have something similar. I imagine things like the conversion beamer being traded off for easier to maintain but similarly devestating forms of chaotic daemon weapons.

As you point out Chaos walked off with 50% of the adeptus mechanicus... something GW forgets too often. If the remaining loyalist 50% could cobble together all the loyalist variants of vehicles, the Chaos Mechanicus unfettered from imperial dogma should be able to achieve much more. The nature of what that "much more" is should be part of what defines chaos. Obviously the dark Mechanicum has its hands in the Defiler, Obliterators, and other daemon weapons... but their should be more than that.
See above, I'll edit this post later when I've got time.

Bionicman
08-08-2011, 16:27
I think in this case variety truly is the spice of life. A Chaos Legions codex need to be, above all other things, varied. The Chaos Legions of the Horus Heresy are radically different to Renegade Space Marines such as the Red Corsairs. They are from an entirely different time period, wield totally different weapons, but most importantly, they have totally different, unique gene seed. Not just, bad Ultramarines, as the current Codex implies. And these vast differences have had ten thousand years to ferment in a nightmarish place of warping, malign evil. The Chaos Legions ARE different.

The hope therefore, for me certainly, is that the Chaos Legions 'dex reflects this. I hate the emphasis in the current Codex on these, y'know renegades who have like, six Marines, a wooden boat and a biplane. Rubbish. The Chaos Legions, like the Iron Warriors, but also the Black Legion and Word Bearers are organized as hell. They have thousands of embittered, battled hardened vicious warriors who are led my mighty generals of unthinkable power. Abaddons Black Crusades terrify the Imperium so much because of this fact, it isn't a bunch of warbands attacking. It's a veritable horde, from the mutants and traitors, to renegade Astartes. But the ones the Imperium truly fears are the Chaos Legions at the heart of this mass of evil. Thing the Legions of Mordor in The Return of the King, not the Trade Federation from Star Wars A Phantom Menace :P It's for this reason i think that the Chaos Legions are in many ways the Imperiums pre-eminent antagonists in the game. There the biggest, baddest guys. They are the real threat, the one which has the potential to "let the galaxy burn" (don't hate me Tyranid players :P).

That's very much my take on it at any rate. And i very much hope GW encompasses at least a couple of my points in the next 'dex. One hopes :)

Askari
08-08-2011, 17:32
I got the implication that all he wanted was Emperor's Children to have Sonic Weapons, with the other Legions being neglected. I used the Iron Warriors as an example of a hypothetical unit 'unlock', though I've come to prefer the idea of unit alterations over straight up unlocking.

Which I wholeheartedly agree on. Big difference in giving Iron Warriors access to Basilisks or just giving Vindicators a bonus when using them.


Huh? I don't see it as a 'serious restriction' when taking that Undivided Lord allows you to essentially build a force of everything?
Having the bestest of everything all at once, sounds a bit like cheese to me. I don't know if you meant to insinuate that, but that's how it's coming across.

Not at all what I was intending to convey, it's just I'd like it so that my own army is still able to be used - i.e. mostly Tzeentch including HQs, but with the odd Slaaneshy unit thrown in. I don't think this is against the fluff of Chaos, yet would be unfeasible should I have to take an Undivided Lord.
I could work around it yes, but what's wrong with having a Tzeentch Lord with mostly Tzeentchian troops leading token Slaanesh units?

aka_mythos
08-08-2011, 17:34
I agree, but the Chaos Legions still exist - in a way. The loyalist legions do not, as most succumbed to the Codex Astartes in very key ways. That isn't to say that the Codex is strictly limited, but there is far less uniformity prevailant within the Chaos Astartes. So 'zest' becomes 'flavour'. I'm not insisting on any sort of way to go about this; its just that whatever amount of chaos marines are floating around... more than half were formerly part of the legions and more than half of those still have some allegiance to their legion even if they've formed their own warband. This is only to say the legions are still a large enough part of Chaos to demand they be MORE thoroughly represented... but it doesn't need to dominate.

Like I've always been a fan of one idea someone proposed; create a generic Chaos Legionare unit entry with upgrades to represent all the undivided legions; this is in parallel to the current generic chaos marine entry. That way it's a unit representing something specific. The cult units could simply have "legionaire" as an upgrade that replaces a minor rule and give them wargear options. In an era of inventing bazillions of new units this seems the most viable.

My point though is this edition of the CSM codex is the blender approach where they gave us minimal flavors and threw them all in a blender... and left it to us to fish out what we want. That doesn't work.

GW is in a difficult spot, on one hand its easy to focus on the big four but people don't want just that, on the other if they cover all the legions, well enough, there isn't room for much more. With as big as Codex Space Marine is, they couldn't cover, by name, all the founding chapters. I think it was alright, but some people want more... covering all the Chaos legions is more difficult because they are more varied and they do need more units included to represent them.



One book with the right design philosophy is enough, in my opinion. Codex: Chaos Space Marines 3.5 had issues, and the Legion lists it offered were fairly 'cookie-cutter', but it was close.It was far from a solid codex, it threw the overall game balance out of wack by allowing such a broad number of options so as to allow the list to be so easily tailored into so many different ways, that list building saw very few compromises and alot of optimization against other armies. Other armies could optimize, but not to the same degree. Armies from that codex varied so drastically that your opponent never at a fair sense of what he was up against and while that might be fluffy its not fair. On a game level I believe GW could have fixed it by dropping either one veteran skills, marks, or the legion rules for all or a few units... GW in their usual heavy handed manner axed too much, which is why the current codex has the versatility but flavor of paste.

I think in a more ideal situation GW will now push things back in the other direction and bring back in some form some of what they tossed. We jsut have to be realistic and not demand the same of what was unfair.

DuskRaider
08-08-2011, 17:35
I think this is something GW's designers have failed to grasp. Chaos legions are largely marines out of a different era of time. That should define them. Certain weapons and vehicles make sense like the Contemptor; conversion beamer might be going a bit too far as it requires Imperial maintainance, but I imagine chaos would have something similar. I imagine things like the conversion beamer being traded off for easier to maintain but similarly devestating forms of chaotic daemon weapons.

As you point out Chaos walked off with 50% of the adeptus mechanicus... something GW forgets too often. If the remaining loyalist 50% could cobble together all the loyalist variants of vehicles, the Chaos Mechanicus unfettered from imperial dogma should be able to achieve much more. The nature of what that "much more" is should be part of what defines chaos. Obviously the dark Mechanicum has its hands in the Defiler, Obliterators, and other daemon weapons... but their should be more than that.

The funny thing is, I'm willing to bet a lot of the technology Legions would be using that's been forgotten would be looked at as magical or warp-tainted by the Mechanicus and Imperium at large, when it may just be weaponry or whatnot from the Golden Age of the Imperium that is no longer recognizable to AdMech.

aka_mythos
08-08-2011, 17:46
The funny thing is, I'm willing to bet a lot of the technology Legions would be using that's been forgotten would be looked at as magical or warp-tainted by the Mechanicus and Imperium at large, when it may just be weaponry or whatnot from the Golden Age of the Imperium that is no longer recognizable to AdMech.I'm more inclined to believe that with the exception of the most mundane, almost every piece of chaos weaponry would be infused with chaotic energies or daemons. As much as Chaos marines are warped and twisted so should the machine spirits of their weapons. The weapons the big four's cult units use are examples of relatively mundane weapons infused with chaos. To the same extremes I would expect to see other weapons. I imagine Iron Warrior vindicators firing daemonic shells. Or even chaos predators and dreadnoughts capable of firing inferno bolts, that'd help explain why chaos bothers with heavy bolter equiped vehicle variance that have been largely eclipsed within the Imperium.

Chapters Unwritten
08-08-2011, 17:52
I've never seen why each Legion should get their own Mark, the Marks of the Gods are there because of the more special treatment you get for being dedicated to one purpose.

That said, my own Mark of Chaos Undivided idea was that it gifted a USR - chosen at army list stage - which applies to all Mark of Chaos Undivided units in the army. USRs included Tank Hunters (for Iron Warriors), Stubborn (for the Black Legion/Word Bearers), Infiltrate (for the Alpha Legion), Hit and Run (for the Night Lords).

Restricted options are so last decade - I'm not in favour of this. Not every Iron Warriors warband wield Basilisks, and there's really no reason why another Legion couldn't use one anyway, and NINE unique units which are mutually exclusive to one Mark is a terrible idea. I'd rather have units which are customizable to be any Legion you wish.

Besides, there are occasions where Khorne Berserkers rub shoulders with the Thousand Sons, my army should be able to reflect that if I want. Ideally they'd would just make it viable to take a mono-God army, but also able to take whatever you damn well please.I think this is a great idea. Simple, eloquent, and adds a great deal of flavor to the Chaos Marine, which in my opinion should be the most versatile and deadly troop choice in the game.

The only other thing I think Chaos should have is an evil, aggressive analog to And They Shall Know No Fear. "Death to the False Emperor!" sounds like a good start...

The Highlander
08-08-2011, 18:12
Personally what I’d like to see is a return to the Index Astartes/3.5 edition days. Make a standard list with all the basic units (CSM squads, Havocs, Terminators etc) and have the cult troops as elites. If you take a chaos lord with a mark then the related cult troops become troops and some of the other units can take marks as well. Finally, after the main list there is a short section detailing the rules for the eight legions. The four cult legions have to take the relevant mark for all their troops but can also take marks on more units (such as terminators) and could get access to extra powerful versions of the ‘normal’ cult units. The other four legions get a short list of bonuses and restrictions to emphasize their fighting style. For example, the Iron Warriors get access to basilisk and possibly bonus to defending (such as stubborn when in cover) but can’t take any daemons or marks at all. There was never any problem with the idea of the 3.5 codex, it just needed balancing.

fruitystu
08-08-2011, 19:05
Now, please don't all growly at me on this one, but it seems a popular grumble at the moment (in Fantasy too) is the free mixing of Marks allowed, with a good number of players feeling it's just not right.

And, I kind of agree. I mean, you just give your Lord the Mark best suited to his chosen role, and then don't worry about it. But what if said Mark influenced the choices elsewhere? For instance, take the Mark of Tzeentch on your Lord, and you open up things like Psykers Dreads (whoa, I know they're insane! This is just suggestions and a large amount of wafflle!). Khorne, and you can take special CCW in place of Heavy and Special weapons in your standard squads, IF they have the Mark of Khorne too, and so on.

To try and clarify, whilst you wouldn't be prevented from having say, Slaaneshi Troops if your Lord is Khornate, your Khornate Troops would have have access to better HTH weaponry, over and above the bonuses for them taking the Mark of Khorne themselves.

So yeah, a strange kind of unlock, which whilst not preventing the free mixing of Marks, you do get a definite bonus for taking a Monodeitic list.

Yeah, not doing so well with the whole clarification I fear. Tell you what, here's an example.

Your Lord may take a Mark of the Gods, at the following costs.

If your Lord has the Mark of Khorne, then any Chaos Marine Squads with the Mark of Khorne may take Power Weapons, Powerfists, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws etc in place of their Special/Heavy Weapon options.

Perhaps if you take a secondary character with a differing Mark, you have to declare one the Overlord, whose Mark 'Up' on equipment takes precedence, allowing a single unit of Troops to take the other Characters Marked Up equipment, representing his personal entourage?

God I think I made a pigs ear of this post!

DuskRaider
08-08-2011, 19:28
Animosity needs to make a comeback. I'm sick of this happy camper koom-bai-ah crap Chaos has become. Khorne loathes Slaanesh. If I'm playing a Khorne army, I should be telling all Slaanesh units to GTFO. Same with Nurgle / Tzeentch. Or if you do decide to destroy the fluff and play a mixed army, you have a chance of your opposing units attacking each other instead of the enemy.

I also do not want to see Legions become unlocked by Special Characters. Most of the SCs they list in the codices aren't even members of their respective Legions any longer. I do not want to be forced to take Typhus when he has disavowed his loyalties to Mortarion and his parent Legion.

DeeKay
08-08-2011, 19:46
No. This idea is flawed.

Traitor Marines are jaded and hardened, represented by higher leadership, but they've given up their oaths. They KNOW fear. Their rebellion failed. Their leader was obliterated. The Chaos Gods abandoned them and they fled to a place of nightmares and damnation.

They are barely sane, much less disciplined. They are now a brutal rabble of heretics, blasphemers and traitors. They've lost any semblance of discipline or order. They might fight like trained and experienced soldiers, but they're out for themselves now. They preserve themselves above all else. They can't even rely on their fickle gods, and they know this. When Chaos is with them, they are brave, but when it appears they have been abandoned, they turn tail and flee like the cowardly dogs they are.

I agree (kind of) with the statements above. I agree that the Chaos Marines have abandoned their oaths and that should be shown in the rules. Maybe basic grunts should be Ld 7 and Champions should be Ld 10. Granted, that makes Champions pretty much auto-includes but it does reinforce the idea of warriors drawn to strong leadership.


I'm completely against the idea of Chaos Marines gaining any sort of ability that reflects their pre-treason training/weaponry/abilities. They threw that all away to join Chaos. They should be armed with mutant warp things and strange sorceries, not advanced imperial tech. They are a rabble, disorganized warbands, held together with fear and greed, not a unified military.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think the Legions turning to the Chaos Gods has a lot to do with their inherent training, tactics etc. That should be reflected as rules IMO.

Warp tech and mutant rabbles... love it.


Chaos marines should have Fear Tactics, not Combat Tactics. They should seek to demoralize and cow the enemy, they do not WANT a fair fight, nor could they survive one. They will rely on fear tactics, surprise, treachery, corruption, daemonic pacts and summonings and foul magicks. That's how Chaos should play.

There ARE no Legions. They've fallen into disarray. They operate without any real leadership now. Alpha Legionaries are carrying out whatever missions they had, because they believe they are part of a greater plan, isolated cells cut off from their brothers. World Eaters join Warbands for the glory of Khorne. Tzeench Sorcerors lead bands of Thousand Sons on quests to find greater power and sorcery, former Death Guard shuffle through Imperial worlds spreading Papa Nurgles blessing. Even Abaddon, the Everchosen can barely strap together an army to face the Imperium every half a millenia or so.

As far as fear tactics go, I like it as an idea but I think it would be hard to represent that as rules without going back to a 3.5 "daemon bomb" playstyle with mutant chaff to go along with it.

As for the Traitor Legions, I think there is more to be gained by representing them as a mythological story of apocalypse should they ever unite. After all, the threat of Chaos is such that the Inquisition destroys Guard units and mindwipes their elite Astartes. Such a situation as the rise of the Legions would quite rightly scare the pants off the High Lords.


No, I don't think we should see any rules that mirror the Imperial counterparts of the CSM. They should have their own rules to reflect their new way of existence. Maybe: "Faithless and Forsaken." or "Every Man for Himself!"or "The Gods are Fickle..."

Your choice of titles seems to suggest a negative view of Chaos in general, but I agree that there should not have to be any conformity enforced upon Chaos armies. Any conformity should be player's choice.

Also, as far as I'm concerned there should always be an element of high risk and high reward to better represent the meddling of the Gods themselves. After all, the Gods value those that honour their name since they increase the god's power.

In order to show this, I would propose a Tier system as seen in Warmachine. Take X amount of certain units, gain benefit Y. Gives players a reason to go mono-god without making a mixture of gods irrelevant.

With regards,
Dan.

Carlosophy
09-08-2011, 08:27
My biggest complaint with the whole Chapter Tactics thing, is that it is based off of characters. Raven Guard suddenly stop being fleet if Shrike isn't leading them personally, White Skars can't outflank without Khan, etc....

For me, Chaos Legions should have some special trates and restrictions.

Black Legion: Can freely take any unit without restriction. No other special benefits.

Word Bearers: +1 to reserve rolls for Daemons. Any model in a unit may be sacrificed for a Greater Daemon. Special Unit: Dark Apostle. Restrictions: May only take units with Marks of Chaos Glory.

Iron Warriors: Obliterators may be taken as an elite choice. Special Unit: Warsmith. Restriction: May only take units with no marks, or marks of Chaos Glory.

Night Lords: Raptors may be taken as a troop choice. Acute Senses. Reduce Deep Strike scatter to a D6. Special Unit: None. Restrictions: The only marks that they may take are chaos glory.

Alpha Legion: Infiltrate special rule. Special unit: Cultists can take a single heavy weapon in their squad. Restrictions: Only can take marks of chaos glory.

World Eaters: Counter Assault special rule. Special Unit: blood slaughterer. Restrictions: May only take units with the Mark of Korne.

Thousand Sons: When rolling to over come psychic defenses, roll an extra leadership test instead. If successful, the power goes off as normal. Special Units: Rubic Terminators. Restrictions: May only take units with Mark of Tzeentch.

Death Guard: All bolt weapons are poisoned, 4+. Special unit: Plague Zombies. Restrictions: May only take units with Mark of Nurgle.

Emperors Children: Hit and run special rule. Special unit: Sonic weapons brought back. Restrictions: May only take units with Mark of Slaanesh.

Why have restrictions at all? Chaos are simply that: Chaos. Their codex should be more like the Eldar and Guard in terms of an 'all-in' army list:

HQ:
Abaddon
Ahriman
Typhus
Kharn
Fabius Bile
Lucius
Erebus
Sevatar
'Alpharius'
Chaos Lord
Chaos Sorcerer
Daemon Prince
Demagogue
Dark Apostle
Greater Daemon

ELITES:
Chosen
Possessed
Obliterators
Warsmith
Blight Drones
JuggerZerkers
Dreadnought

TROOPS:
Chaos Marines
Chaos Cultists
Plague Marines
Khorne Berzerkers
Noise Marines
Thousand Sons
Daemon Packs

FAST ATTACK:
Raptors
Bikers
Furies
Screamer-mounted marines
Silver Tower of Tzeentch (The big flyer)

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Blood Slaughterer
Cauldron of Blood
Defiler
Land Raider
Predator
Vindicator

With that you could theme a list or just throw together a warband.

feelnopain666
09-08-2011, 10:48
Take Iron Warriors. I could swap out 2 Fast Attack for another Heavy Support, and could also take lots of Obliterators

I always find this amusing, because when we talk about chaos cheese, the finger is always pointed to IW, and nowadays all chaos players can have that and more, but we dont see anyone complain:
-obliterators dont have the 0-1 restrition anymore
-dreanoughts are now a elite choiše, so now we can have the equivalent to 6 heavy support!
-vindicators to everyone
-only the basilisk is out

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 11:16
People don't complain largely because with in the context of all the other codices it isn't as bad as it was.


Why have restrictions at all? Chaos are simply that: Chaos. Their codex should be more like the Eldar and Guard in terms of an 'all-in' army list...I think it overly generalizes what is a more complex situation. Even though Chaos may have the same goal, even though they will cooperate... there is a greater degree of internal strife that keeps some groups from working imediately together.

I don't think the codex should have restrictions, but I do think certain choices should be mutually exclusive. The only other minor level of restriction is one where certain units are either elite, fast attack, or otherwise non-scoring without the appropriate HQ.

omegoku
09-08-2011, 12:05
I think the 4 Cult troops should be elites that become troops with the appropriate mark on Lord
Chosen should come in 2 flavours - Power armour and Terminator armour.
Both should be upgradable to cult status (so terminator beserkers for example)
Both should have a lot of weapon choices.

Daemons should be markable
All undivided squads can take one vet/special rule to represent their parent legion.
Word Bearers get reroll daemon scatter, Alpha Legion get stealth, or whatever

All vehicles can be marked, when a vehicle is marked it changes the weapons in a set way. For example Mark of Nurgle mean vehicle ignores shaken and stunned on 4+, mark of tzeentch replaces heavy flamer with daemon fire, Slaanesh heavy bolters become twin linked sonic blasters, etc.

HQ with mark can only join unit of same mark, marked daemons can only be summoned from undivided/same mark, units with mark cannot embark in differently marked vehicle.

Add Chaos Cultists as troops choice, should be weaker than guard.

Remove fearless from every unit in the codex except Daemons and Dark Apostle, give all CSM Ld 9, Lords and Chosen 10.

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 12:28
Add Chaos Cultists as troops choice, should be weaker than guard.I think Chaos Cultist get too marginalized... its too easy to forget that the Chaos cultist concept is more diverse than simple untrained civilian chaos worshipers running around. I think this is one reason why GW has largely igrnored the idea of including them. If they're weaker than guard they end up so generic and weak that they have little or no purpose. Maybe the option to play them like that should be in the book, but I see cultists as more.

I think the best way to write Chaos Cultists is something that mirrors the Ecclesiarchy' Enclave and Inquisitorial Henchmen... off the top of my head I can think of a number of basic concepts: Mutants, daemonically possessed, traitor guardsmen, witches, saboteurs, sacrifices... and I'm sure other people could come up with a few more.

The only other thing I could see happening, if GW went a more generic unit, is that cultists would work more like Penal Legionaires, but that would leave them pretty much unused.

I think its best to move in that direction if we want GW to take the elements of Chaos that aren't space marines more seriously.

omegoku
09-08-2011, 13:29
I agree the lots of different types of cultists would be the best way to represent them, but there is already an insane amount of units in the book before you add even a basic unit.
Chaos is too big to fit into one tidy list I think, but 3 codex that can interact goes against the current GW plan.

Did it not work out so well in fantasy when they did that?

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 13:40
I agree the lots of different types of cultists would be the best way to represent them, but there is already an insane amount of units in the book before you add even a basic unit.I don't think its an insane quantity. If we take the current codex and add everything except the special characters from the Chaos daemons codex... only then do we have as many units as Codex Space Marines. I'm not saying we do that or go as far, just that we don't have that many units.

Chaos cultists are essential if any book is meant to cover more than just Chaos Marines. Whether its to represent Alpha Legions' use of cultist or something saved to fill the inevitable void in the Renegade codex, if and when Legions are moved to a separate codex... they are such a quitessential aspex of Chaos.

Bonzai
09-08-2011, 14:37
Why have restrictions at all? Chaos are simply that: Chaos. Their codex should be more like the Eldar and Guard in terms of an 'all-in' army list.

Why restrictions? It keeps things a little more fluffy. It also prevents cherry picking (I.E. Some one insisting that they are playing Iron Warriors to get obliterators as elites, while using 1k Sons as troops). If you want to mix and match, that is what black legion is for. If you want the benefit from playing a specific legion, then there should be restrictions.

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 14:44
If everything is unrestricted and everything that can be a troop choice is a troop choice, such as now with cult marines... some of the most common troops Chaos marines are taken less often then they should... and other units are taken more often then they should. You end up with Chaos armies all looking pretty much the same with the same cherry picked unit... and armies that don't represent anything in particular. Fluff shouldn't dictate the rules but they should be a guide... otherwise a Chaos Space Marine army is only that army in name and not in spirit, when it should be both.

fruitystu
09-08-2011, 17:16
Aww! No comments on my Mark linked expanded Wargear options?

I is upset!

fruitystu
09-08-2011, 17:21
Double post. Sorry!

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 18:09
Mark expanded wargear options is convoluted. I am all for these weapons but having it as this type of multi-step option tree takes up too much space. To keep it simplified I would say that marks on the appropriate units just include the particularly distinctive weapon. For example a mark of slannesh on a dreadnought should just provide it the sonic weapons.

xxRavenxx
09-08-2011, 18:10
I think the obvious thing chaos needs to gain, is more things that are different from the loyalist books.

Defiler - yay! Obliterators - yay!

New rules (and models which dont look terrible) for posessed, and then more random bits and pieces to drag them away from imperial armies.

I'd like to see more spawn, lesser daemons becoming stronger, but relying on basic chaos marines to be summoned (ie, strong choice but needs supporting so it doesnt take over - maybe 1 squad per squad of CSM bought).

The last ten chaos armies I've seen were just marine armies with horns. How boring...

fruitystu
09-08-2011, 18:11
Gyarr, I see where you're coming from. Though I think it's just my description that made it convoluted!

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 18:30
Not to push things in too much of a loyalist direction... but if Dreadnought interred Techmarines result in loyalists getting ironclads... what happens for us if you inter our former techmarines... Dreadnought+obliterator? Sounds like a fun unit.

Wyrmwood
09-08-2011, 18:37
Not to push things in too much of a loyalist direction... but if Dreadnought interred Techmarines result in loyalists getting ironclads... what happens for us if you inter our former techmarines... Dreadnought+obliterator? Sounds like a fun unit.
Perhaps a larger, more grotesque form of Obiterator with an AV value and invulnerable save. Instead of the multitude of energy based ranged weapons, hammers and whatnot.

I can see a corrupted-by-warp-stuff or possessed Dreadnought, but not an Obliternaught. I'd be all for the former option.

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 18:46
Random thought... I'm inclined to believe Iron Warrior won't be able to ever get a basilisk again... but what if it were represented in a different way, like the called shot the IG Master of Ordnance has. Whether its a special character or simply an upgrade for a Chaos undivided lord, I think it accomplishes the same effect without putting a basilisk into the chaos codex.


Perhaps a larger, more grotesque form of Obiterator with an AV value and invulnerable save. Instead of the multitude of energy based ranged weapons, hammers and whatnot.

I can see a corrupted-by-warp-stuff or possessed Dreadnought, but not an Obliternaught. I'd be all for the former option.I realize its over the top, it was more just to get people to think outside of what's been done before. A daemon bound dreadnought would be interesting... however its rules works would likely mirror what of possessed marines, which GW has neither been consistent or balanced with.

In general their should be more going on with the Chaos dreadnoughts... more distinctly chaos weapons and more reasonably viable. The whole daemon-bound dreadnought maybe a way to divorce the concept of our out of control dreadnought from something thats less unrulely.

Garanaul the Black
09-08-2011, 19:52
If your Lord has the Mark of Khorne, then any Chaos Marine Squads with the Mark of Khorne may take Power Weapons, Powerfists, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws etc in place of their Special/Heavy Weapon options.

Lightning Claws as an option for two Berzerkers in a squad instead of Plasma Pistols? Yes please!



I would say that marks on the appropriate units just include the particularly distinctive weapon. For example a mark of slannesh on a dreadnought should just provide it the sonic weapons.

While for simplicity's sake I agree, I would really like the ability to field I5 Dreads though...:shifty:



Dreadnought+obliterator? Sounds like a fun unit.

Great idea, especially in a post-Dreadknight world. I can see GW adding a larger kit like this to the lineup when our time comes.



but what if it were represented in a different way, like the called shot the IG Master of Ordnance has. Whether its a special character or simply an upgrade for a Chaos undivided lord, I think it accomplishes the same effect without putting a basilisk into the chaos codex.

Do you really think GW would pass up the chance to sell more Basilisks with a special rule that doesn't require the purchase of a new model? ;)


G

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 20:01
While for simplicity's sake I agree, I would really like the ability to field I5 Dreads though...:shifty:
I think that bits wishful thinking.



Do you really think GW would pass up the chance to sell more Basilisks with a special rule that doesn't require the purchase of a new model? ;)
I think it all depends. GW will never put a new unit into the codex that is available only to a single specific sub-faction. So if it is in the codex, it will be available to everyone; at that point how would it necessarily reflect "Iron Warriors" as opposed to any other group that happened to pick it up?-If we go back to Iron Warrior's with a 4th HS FOC, then we're back to them being somethng GW percieved as broken. I'm inclined to believe GW will look for some other way to distinguish Iron Warriors, whether its modifying defilers, dreadnought, or Obliterators... before they give Chaos Space marines a basilisk.

DuskRaider
09-08-2011, 20:31
I think removing a SP from the Malcador and having that an option for Iron Warriors would be better.

Garanaul the Black
09-08-2011, 20:38
I think that bits wishful thinking.


Maybe, compared to some of the variants the Blood Angels and Grey Knights can field it seems kind of tame in comparison.




I think removing a SP from the Malcador and having that an option for Iron Warriors would be better.


SP? :confused:



G

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 20:39
What SP are you talking about?


Maybe, compared to some of the variants the Blood Angels and Grey Knights can field it seems kind of tame in comparison.I think its the compounded volume of variations that make it wishful thinking. Special weapons that comes with divine devotion... ok... special stat bonuses... also ok... but those thing should only happen after the completely necessary undivided updates and options... at which point I think it becomes too clunky. What other codex has 5-6 full on dreadnought variants?-none. So if we can expect to see if in their its either in a minimal way or not at all. I think its possible to come up with a way to make it work. I think its possible that the codex has enough room, but to a degree I think we're better served with GW putting its energies elsewhere.

For example... rather than having a full blown Khornate dreadnought with all the possible bells and whistle options and special rules, I'd rather see a Blood Slaughterer, which would largely serve the same role. GW's choices need to be more thought out than just giving every faction a unique variant of different units. Now I don't think we'll realistically see the Blood Slaughterer in the codex, but maybe a similar universal daemon engine that can be devoted to the gods and be similarly represented.

Chaos has so many things that need to happen it doesn't necessarily leave as much room for the things that are less cruical but characterful.

DuskRaider
09-08-2011, 20:41
Structure Point.

aka_mythos
09-08-2011, 20:54
...ah that makes more sense now. I think that only works if GW has a larger agenda of emphasizing traitor guard and cultists. In general I like the idea of chaos recieving such a distinctive vehicle. Stalk tanks would also be cool.

DuskRaider
09-08-2011, 21:51
...ah that makes more sense now. I think that only works if GW has a larger agenda of emphasizing traitor guard and cultists. In general I like the idea of chaos recieving such a distinctive vehicle. Stalk tanks would also be cool.

Yeah, remove a Structure Point, reduce the cost by about 100 pts, and go from there. Include the variants, make them the Traitor Legions' main battle tank apart from the RH1N0 series. They are Pre-Heresy, we need to remember.

sancraer
09-08-2011, 22:20
I think to appease everyone the codex would have to favour lists that followed themes but not restrict them to this.

An idea I had for this was inspired by the chaos dreadnought. Imagine most units were to be dedicated to a certain God, ie. berzerkers=khorne, this could be shown through marks or whatever (the legions being represented by variatons on the marks? idk). Simply add a rule that says, if a unit belonging to a God comes within 6/12" of a unit belonging to a different God on a roll of a 1 (or 1/2), they must shoot/assualt it if possible.

This means an undivided army can still work but you need to keep the forces separated (as I imagine they would be in the battlefield) but allows an army to have a more unified feel if they are exactly that, unified under one God.

Have Abaddon nullify this rule to represent his ability to unite the forces of Chaos and it all comes out dandy.

Also, I would like to see the removal of daemons but the increase of warp-effected equipment and marines. Space marines can't take IG in their codex just because they are allies, why should CSM? However CSM would then need to be easily distinguishable from codex:SM.