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PurpleSun
08-08-2011, 23:04
So if you are only allowed to have 10 infantry models assault, and only 10 infantry models defend, do they have the step up rule?

I'm imagining a scenario where let's say 20 Dryads assault a building held by 20 Saurus. Each side is allowed to designate 10 models to fight in the assault/defense. The Dryads attack first (Initiative 6). Say they kill 3 Saurus. When the Saurus attack on their Initiative, do they only have 7 models that can attack back? Or can they step up 3 models to attack back with 10 models?

I could not find the answer in the BRB, but I may have missed it.

badguyshaveallthefun
08-08-2011, 23:08
Consider it as two units of 10 fighting each other. If you lose 3 models, then only 7 more models "remain" in the unit to fight back.

My interpretation anyway.

RanaldLoec
08-08-2011, 23:21
You get the step up rule.

T10
08-08-2011, 23:34
Yes, models step up.

In effect, you both get to fight with 10 models in each round of combat. Only if the unit drops below 10 models will you actually "lose attacks" (and then only if their Initiative is lower).

PurpleSun
09-08-2011, 00:52
Does it say somewhere in the BRB that they do step up, or are you just interpreting it that way?

Chipacabra
09-08-2011, 01:14
Yes, it says so on page 128, the second paragraph of Allocating attacks.

eron12
10-08-2011, 05:33
I have a related question. If more wounds are dealt than the models in the assault force have, are the extra wounds discounted, or are they applied to the unit the assault force came from?

T10
10-08-2011, 07:14
It is safe to assume that they carry over to the rest of the unit. This is because this is the case with normal combats, and the building rules do not make an exception on this issue.

shelfunit.
10-08-2011, 08:45
On a related topic, can characters be singled out in a unit (either side) or do they have to be specifically included in the assault party to be attacked? Example - unit of 170 DEs in a building including 8 characters - could the 10 assaulting troops specifically assault any/all of these characters, or must they direct attacks against the R&F?

MLP
10-08-2011, 09:03
I see it as two units fighting with a frontage of 10 each. Nothing else changes.

So casualties carry over and more combatants step up(to the windows or doors they're fighting through)

Mercules
10-08-2011, 14:20
On a related topic, can characters be singled out in a unit (either side) or do they have to be specifically included in the assault party to be attacked? Example - unit of 170 DEs in a building including 8 characters - could the 10 assaulting troops specifically assault any/all of these characters, or must they direct attacks against the R&F?

The answer is "Depends". The controlling player nominates which of his 10 models are fighting. If he nominates 10 RnF models then you can only attack RnF. If he nominates the 8 characters then you may attack them per the building rules. Go read them, it is rather specific on who can attack characters. :angel:

Tregar
10-08-2011, 15:12
It's worth noting that half of the attacking models can target a character that is in the building. But what happens if you have a lone character? Say, a Wizard charged by 5 Harpies. Does that mean half (3) of the attacking models can target the wizard, or do all 5 still get to attack?


I see it as two units fighting with a frontage of 10 each. Nothing else changes.

So, the second rank gets supporting attacks then? Or more accurately, it's not really like two units with a frontage of 10 each at all...

T10
10-08-2011, 15:39
Surely 5 models may target the character. This means that if you assault the building with 6 models then 5 of those (not 3) can attack the same character.


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Mercules
10-08-2011, 15:43
It's worth noting that half of the attacking models can target a character that is in the building. But what happens if you have a lone character? Say, a Wizard charged by 5 Harpies. Does that mean half (3) of the attacking models can target the wizard, or do all 5 still get to attack? It's 5 models as per the rules I mentioned, not 'half'. :rolleyes:




So, the second rank gets supporting attacks then? Or more accurately, it's not really like two units with a frontage of 10 each at all... It is blindingly simple. 10 models are nominated. 10 models get to attack. If there are things other than RnF in the nominated models then the opposing side can choose up to 5 models to attack a specific model. Resolve normally. There are no Ranks during an assault for any purposes so no need to consider them.

shelfunit.
10-08-2011, 17:24
The answer is "Depends". The controlling player nominates which of his 10 models are fighting. If he nominates 10 RnF models then you can only attack RnF. If he nominates the 8 characters then you may attack them per the building rules. Go read them, it is rather specific on who can attack characters. :angel:

Yeah, I wasn't on the ball on that one :shifty:

Verchild
11-08-2011, 13:29
Another Question on this Topic.
Last night I was in a game where a Unit of Brettonian Knights charged a wizards tower to attack the Crossbowmen inside.

The Rules do not state that the horses CAN'T attack, only that mounted units count as 3 models in teh assault.
Then I remembered the "Creeping Assault" rule that the Goblin Spider Riders have, which states that they do not have to DISMOUNT to assault the building.

Does that mean when mounted units such as knights assault a building they have to get off their horse?

Which would then nullify their +2 str bonus from the lance as the lance can only be used on horseback?

Or, am I simply reading too much into the Creeping Assault rule ?

The_Lemon
11-08-2011, 14:02
It's 5 models as per the rules I mentioned, not 'half'. :rolleyes:


It is blindingly simple. 10 models are nominated. 10 models get to attack. If there are things other than RnF in the nominated models then the opposing side can choose up to 5 models to attack a specific model. Resolve normally. There are no Ranks during an assault for any purposes so no need to consider them.

My BRB says "Half the models" not 5 models, and I do not see anything about it in the faqs.

Tregar
11-08-2011, 14:41
Thanks The_Lemon. Take a chill pill Mercules, you're snapping at anything and everyone for absolutely no reason. If there's one thing that's dumber than fabricating a rules "quote" that doesn't exist, it's rolling your eyes at someone who has quoted the rules correctly and putting "speech marks" around the word that is accurately quoted.

Also note I was replying to Paz who incorrectly said to treat it like two units 10-wide hacking at each other. I know how building assault works (except where I don't, hence my above question ;) ), just wanted to emphasise that simplifying it usually leads to mistakes being made or other potentially faulty assumptions.

Bloosquig
11-08-2011, 16:09
Another Bret question on buildings. If your Grail Reliquae unit assaults a building and you choose the shrine as an assaulter how many models does it count as? We just went ahead and said it was a single model but I'd hate to give an army already so overpowered in building assaults another tool to use ;)

Scalebug
11-08-2011, 16:51
The Rules do not state that the horses CAN'T attack, only that mounted units count as 3 models in teh assault.
Then I remembered the "Creeping Assault" rule that the Goblin Spider Riders have, which states that they do not have to DISMOUNT to assault the building.

Does that mean when mounted units such as knights assault a building they have to get off their horse?

Which would then nullify their +2 str bonus from the lance as the lance can only be used on horseback?

Or, am I simply reading too much into the Creeping Assault rule ?

Ordinary cavalry (the Bretonnian Knights here) do not count as 3 models when assaulting buildings, it was very possible to read it like that in the rules ("Therefore, monstrous infantry / cavalry / beasts models each count as three models when selected for a assault party", but the FAQ has clarified it, it is monstrous cavalry and monstrous beasts that is asked for here.

So, ten Bretonnian Knights will get of their horses, draw their swords and assault the building. (BRB p.83). They cannot use their lances, as they got off, sure, but the point is nearly moot, as you don't get charging bonuses when assaulting buildings anyway (BRB p. 129). It only comes into play with characters carrying magic lances.


Another Bret question on buildings. If your Grail Reliquae unit assaults a building and you choose the shrine as an assaulter how many models does it count as? We just went ahead and said it was a single model but I'd hate to give an army already so overpowered in building assaults another tool to use ;)

It is just of the type "In" in the summary, so it is just one model, it and nine pilgrims will fight... Suspension of disbelief needed, maybe, but I doubt it is going to be that huge of a game-breaker... :p

Verchild
11-08-2011, 19:17
Ordinary cavalry (the Bretonnian Knights here) do not count as 3 models when assaulting buildings, it was very possible to read it like that in the rules ("Therefore, monstrous infantry / cavalry / beasts models each count as three models when selected for a assault party", but the FAQ has clarified it, it is monstrous cavalry and monstrous beasts that is asked for here.

So, ten Bretonnian Knights will get of their horses, draw their swords and assault the building. (BRB p.83). They cannot use their lances, as they got off, sure, but the point is nearly moot, as you don't get charging bonuses when assaulting buildings anyway (BRB p. 129). It only comes into play with characters carrying magic lances.



It is just of the type "In" in the summary, so it is just one model, it and nine pilgrims will fight... Suspension of disbelief needed, maybe, but I doubt it is going to be that huge of a game-breaker... :p

Final Question in reference to assaulting Buildings.
I thought that in a SoM game, a Fulcrum counted as a building ( a floating disk on a pillar of fire kind of building, but a building none the less )

I guess I would just need that information confirmed and it would tie up all my other thoughts.

Lord Zarkov
11-08-2011, 23:15
Final Question in reference to assaulting Buildings.
I thought that in a SoM game, a Fulcrum counted as a building ( a floating disk on a pillar of fire kind of building, but a building none the less )

I guess I would just need that information confirmed and it would tie up all my other thoughts.
A fulcrum is a type of building, but it is different in a number of ways as explained in the SoM book

T10
12-08-2011, 00:06
Surely 5 models may target the character. This means that if you assault the building with 6 models then 5 of those (not 3) can attack the same character.


It is indeed half the models, not 5 models. I feel I've learned something new.

Tregar
12-08-2011, 12:53
I haven't though, the question I posed still confuses me! If 5 Harpies charge in, do 5 attack, or 3? If 10 charge in, do 10 attack, or 5?

T10
12-08-2011, 13:20
Against a single character? 3 out of 5 harpies get to fight.

Tregar
12-08-2011, 15:11
That's what I thought. Now, to convince people in actual games ;)

T10
12-08-2011, 19:54
For that you'll need a rulebook and a pointy finger...

Mercules
14-08-2011, 15:26
It is indeed half the models, not 5 models. I feel I've learned something new.

Yup... I made that same mistake.