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oink
09-08-2011, 10:33
I'm off to a "friendly get together" day tournament of another forum soon, and i've used the deadline to merge my love of tanks with the fact that virtually none of the ones I won were painted!

Last month, I painted no less than 8 tanks, and I'm hoping to lash more out before the deadline too. However, it looks like I'm coming under some fire because I've (inadvertantly I might add) created a list that "spams chimeras" and will "be no fun to play with or against".

perhaps at 1750pts 14 tanks is a bit too much!? (I could never think that myself being a self confessed tread head). I should probably clarify that this "tournament" is not normally highly competitive, we allow forge world items and army lists, and tend to have a good proportion of very fluffy armies showing up. At past events I've taken things such as an all infantry alaitoc / harlequin themed force, and a mortar based guard army. Its certainly not a tournament where you'd expect top echelon competitive gamers or those who might build and army specifically for tournament wins!

Anyway, this brings me to the crux of the point... Is it possible to go over the top with an army... can you be too competitive and how do you deal (or live with) the fact that people may be agrieved with what they are playing against.

What do you do if you unintentionatlly create an army that people stigmatise!?!

Baindread
09-08-2011, 11:53
If it is as you say, a friendly tournament, then it shouldn't matter to the others if they win or not, right? To me it seems like they are the ones not playing by the spirit of the tournament since you bring an army based around a theme, which you apparently done before.
Basically, if they got a problem with your army, it's their problem since you followed the spirit in which the armies are usually created. I guess it's only your conscience though which can prove you right or wrong

Spider-pope
09-08-2011, 12:17
If your force is allowed under the tournement rules then i would say it is fine to use it, especially if it was inadvertantly done through an attempt to give the force a distinct theme.

Really it's your attitude when playing that should be the determining factor if you get lambasted for being overly competitive or not. The way i see it is any list can be a nightmare to play against, no matter how balanced or weak, if your opponent is an obnoxious git.*

*please note that this is not a slur against competitive players. Competitiveness is absolutely fine if you maintain your sportsmanship. I'm talking about the people who deliberately mark you down, question every single rule or move you make, are utterly obnoxious and aggressive all to gain a slight advantage. Thankfully the vast minority of players are completely unlike this.

KharnTheBetrayer01
09-08-2011, 12:50
Oh, you can absolutely be too competitive. The minute you find yourself seeing the game as more a calling than a fun distraction, the moment you stop caring about whether or not your "opponent" is having fun, instead just grinding him into the dirt as quickly as possible, you cease being a good person to play against.

That said, 14 tanks? That sounds monumental fun to play against! Brings up mental images of plucky heroes charging into the belly of the beast, shells landing all around them kicking up the dirt and spraying their allies across the dirt. Might I suggest you let a few make-shift trenches/chest high walls for the use of your opponent maybe? On a flat tabletop that army would be a nightmare, but with terrain it becomes a rather exciting prospect...

wartorngetahroun74
09-08-2011, 13:26
Agreed about the flat terrain and a lot of tanks. I used only 8 tanks vs nids on a flat table, and pretty much decimated his lines. I love a lot of terrain, even with tanks. Makes it challenging and fun for me

Easy E
09-08-2011, 14:14
If it is as you say, a friendly tournament, then it shouldn't matter to the others if they win or not, right?

You can win and not have fun, and you can lose and not have fun. Winning and losing do not equal fun.

Other intangible factors come into play when determining "fun".

Unless your only focus is on winning/losing. In that case, you wouldn't even be asking the question.

Edit: I have experience playing a lot of tanks, and it is very easy to roll over a non-gimmicky, balanced army or get slaughtered by a list tailored to go against you. Just remember this when you play, take a look at the opponeent, and possibly let him make some tweaks to his list or terrain before you start the game.

It also helps to make engine noises, call-out for sabot or High EX, and be genuinely fun.

Chem-Dog
09-08-2011, 15:07
Other intangible factors come into play when determining "fun".


Too true, amongst my lot it seemse to revolve around crude humour.
That and things going horribly, horribly wrong.
Bloodfeeder munching on a Lord three Combat rounds in a row.
Guardsmen bringing down charging Bloodcrushers.
Marines Failling a Tank shock and falling back off of the table, on the turn they walked on from reserve.
Getting tabled bar a single Chimera which took four attempts but FINALLY killed a Tyrant by running it over.
All examples of things that induced hysterrical laughter and therefore fun.

oink
09-08-2011, 16:08
Thanks for the comments so far peeps.

Yea, it seems as though I have managed to put together a "leafblower" list. there is only one russ, but a bunch of chimera chassis and some vendettas too.

I didn't even know what a leafblower list was until now. and to be honest, I'm not entirely sure what makes up a leafblower list in order to try and help avoid it!

There is still time to alter my list, though I don't want to make myself feel as though I am "toning down" my army for the sake of apeasing others! But I like to play more than I like to win. Saying that though, I imagine there would be a sinking feeling no matter what tanks I had... if there were 14 of them stepping onto the table!

I did mention to them that I was thinking that I was doing a softer option, as when I started deciding on an army, I was considering a FW armoured battlegroup army which still had 12 tanks... but half of them were russes!!! It seems as though I was wrong!

Caitsidhe
09-08-2011, 16:57
No, you cannot be "too competitive." You play by the rules. You play to win. You just be easy going and friendly at the game. If you are within the rules, are polite, and generally a good person, then your army can (and should) be the most vicious thing you can put on the table. That makes the game challenging.

Luisjoey
09-08-2011, 17:07
Quimera + Plasma/melta Vets Spam?

Is really fluffy as guards plays attrition, use it if you like, i wonŽt complain because in the end you are playing a themed army in the points agreed.

watch out if someone plays devastator themed armies or nidzilla because it would be ugly to you.

Morganstern
09-08-2011, 17:15
No, you cannot be "too competitive." You play by the rules. You play to win. You just be easy going and friendly at the game. If you are within the rules, are polite, and generally a good person, then your army can (and should) be the most vicious thing you can put on the table. That makes the game challenging.

I disagree; I think that that attitude leads to identical lists being fielded around the world and the death of variety. Friendly games, even friendly tournaments are the perfect times to try out the units that are not considered the best, or fluffy armies.

susu.exp
09-08-2011, 17:21
IŽd say that even the single Russ makes it no-LB in the strict sense of the word. But basically: If your army takes noting in FA but Vendettas, artillery and Hydras in HS and the rest is Veterans in Chimaeras, you have a LB.
Things that removes LBishness: Russes, *hounds or Sentinels, Ordinary Platoons, Penal Legionaires, any non-mechanized Infantry.

DragonArmy
09-08-2011, 17:32
Hmmmm.... I see it differently. The problem arises when a list is not fun to play against, usually because the list removes tactics and strategy and instead is determined by rolling tons of dice. An easy example is in fantasy when someone plays an all shooting list. you run at them as fast as you can. You either reach their side and destroy them or they kill you first. It still takes 2 hours to play the game.

Often only very competitive players are willing to run such lists.

When I hear too competitive I don't think of the list being too strong, I think of a list that sacrifices the fun aspects of the game to slightly increase the chances of winning.

fruitystu
09-08-2011, 17:49
Yes, yes and thrice yes!

However, the irritation of over-competing stems not from the list, but from the player. A mechanised Guard Army is fine, as it's a theme. It's when the actual player is a powergamer as well that I'd get irritated.

oink
09-08-2011, 18:07
Hmmmm.... I see it differently. The problem arises when a list is not fun to play against, usually because the list removes tactics and strategy and instead is determined by rolling tons of dice.

Funny thing is, my Tau army works by quantity of fire... at all points levels... for instance, at 1000pts it dishes out over 110 S5 shots alone (not even counting other weapons)... but has never once been described as a leafblower! It certainly has more firepower than my guard list, and the two would definatley have a good old scrap (certainly not a one sided affair).

FYI, my list does have a platoon squad (mechanised of course), but it also has a meltavet unit, mounted psykers, two hydras and a manticore. The vendettas start off empty (most of the time at least!). I've just ordered some scout trucks from ramshackle games and hopefully i can get them done in time to use them as sentinels... replacing a vendetta to help reduce the "leafblower...ness"

Rated_lexxx
09-08-2011, 18:50
Most of the time no, but being to competitive comes down to the attitude you have during the game. If you complain win you lose or win, or mock your opponent when you win that is to competitive


Making a list you enjoy is not being over competitive. Your having fun and that is the point of the game.

Sounds like the people your talking about are netlist haters

Easy E
09-08-2011, 19:16
Sounds like the people your talking about are netlist haters

Those bar stewards! ;)

FrozenLaughs
09-08-2011, 20:26
You can ALWAYS be too competitive.

If it's a fun get together, remember that and don't let losing get to you. If there is confusion about rules, talk it out. And don't be afraid to experiment. These can be some of the funnest games you play; goofy lists, odd weapons, different tactics. Encourage everyone to try something new. Think you brought too many tanks? Walk in and hold your case in the air shouting "Tanks for everyone!"

Okay maybe not, but it should make for a good laugh. ;)

Lord of Divine Slaughter
09-08-2011, 22:07
If your list is endless repetition, if every unit is a clone of another, and you're finding that every game is a repetition of the last - if not in outcome, then the tactics you used and choices you made - then; yes, you are to competitive.

But if every game is a Challenge and a new experience, where you needed to cope with setbacks and failed tactics, then you're on the right track.

Remember; Winning really doesn't matter in the end, only whether the time was well spent - and I never heard of a tournament, where the prizes came even close to minimum wage ;)

RobPro
10-08-2011, 03:58
Why is "being competitive" usually lumped in with "being a jerkbag"? I'd be pissed off if the people I played against didn't try to do their best to beat me. I'm not saying you have to bring a pro-tested, mother approved, monster netlist every game, but if you're going to run a themed list instead of what is generally considered powerful for that codex, I like it when people have some tactics for it.

One of the better CSM players at my LGS runs a pretty balanced list and usually stomps everybody because he's a great player, and he's a lot of fun to play with. Always willing to discuss what went wrong, what went right, and what things could of been changed after the game. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Rated_lexxx
10-08-2011, 13:31
If your list is endless repetition, if every unit is a clone of another, and you're finding that every game is a repetition of the last - if not in outcome, then the tactics you used and choices you made - then; yes, you are to competitive.

But if every game is a Challenge and a new experience, where you needed to cope with setbacks and failed tactics, then you're on the right track.

Remember; Winning really doesn't matter in the end, only whether the time was well spent - and I never heard of a tournament, where the prizes came even close to minimum wage ;)

SO what your saying is if I have a list I enjoy playing every week(with slight modification depending on who I play) and even though I am having fun with it I am being to competitive

spurker
10-08-2011, 13:52
I don't think you're being too competitive (only way to be too competitive is to cheat IMO). I'd love to play against a list with lots of tanks with my footslogging CSM. I might get creamed, but it would be FUN!

AndrewGPaul
10-08-2011, 14:19
Too competetive? Yes. The old stereotype of the mouthbreathing nerd who picks on the 12-year-oldnew kids because he can beat them springs to mind, along with the guy who runs demo games like he's at the world championships.

In this instance, I think it's a different question. It sounds like your group has a good idea of what everyone likes - the game invironment has sort of come together so everyone has a good idea of what sort of army everyone will field. If you're turning up with something wildly out of kilter with that, it might not work too well. For example, if you usually turn up with a army full of 50-man amalgamated infantry platoons, most people will take that into account when building their armies. Now you're turning up with 14 vehicles*, so everyone's flamers will be rather useless. Meanwhile, you still have the old advantage of knowing roughly what you'll be up against. If you've said to people "by the way guys, I've been painting a load of tanks recently", then that might be a different story.

* <grognard>a Chimera is an APC, not a tank! :( </grognard>

Easy E
10-08-2011, 16:46
* <grognard>a Chimera is an APC, not a tank! :( </grognard>

Word. 14 Leman Russes, now those are tanks!

IcedCrow
10-08-2011, 17:48
Can you be too competitive? Yes. Too competitive is in my opinion the players who come off as ******* because their sole focus is on winning, and you, their opponent, are just the flesh-sack pushing the opposing models around.

We all play to win. But once you start disregarding the game as a whole and your opponent and are soley focused on winning, that is to me where you have crossed into "too competitive". If you don't care how your opponent feels, you are too competitive in my opinion.

Asking if you are too competitive, to me, means you are not, because you are concerned your opposition is not having a fun game as well.

Are 14 tanks too competitive? Meh... I think it would be fun to play against once in a while honestly. Throw the terrain in there to make it a game (otherwise on flat terrain as has been mentioned, you will be lawn mowering the other side) and it would be a blast.

Askari
10-08-2011, 18:05
I think you can be too competitive yes, but it usually involves pushing the rules to their ends in order to gain benefit - not outright cheating, but just making it awkward (Oh, you forgot to use Warptime before moving that Rhino? Too late).

That said, I can't quite see the "theme" in Chimera squads mixed in with Vendetta gunships, a Battle Tank, and Artillery pieces. It sounds like a bit of a power list. Scrapping any one of the above would theme it better;

No Leman Russ or Vendettas? = Artillery convoy escorted by squads in Chimeras to keep up.

No McMeltaVets? = Aerial support group consisting of Vendetta gunships covered by Hydra Flak Tanks and Manticore (potentially-AA for theme) Missile Batteries.

Griffindale
10-08-2011, 20:40
Yes. Its called being a douche bag.

Crimthaan
11-08-2011, 01:44
It really depends on the situation. I know I tend to be ultra competitive even at friend events or in friendly things (my friends hate playin bar darts with me). You really need to scope out the scene and decide from there your next course of action.

Eighties-Matt
11-08-2011, 02:11
If you think people will accuse you of bringing a cheesy army to what sounds like a more laid back sort of tournament, you can probably repair that damage by just being a pleasant person to play against.

Be friendly, chat with your opponent, be considerate and don't employ cheesy tactics.

Its always nice to have a game against a sporting player who is there to have fun. People tend to use models they like, and as you said yourself, you're a tread-head. Vehicles are my favourite models, you can do so much with them. Kit bags, spare ammo, battle damage, mud spatters, dust, rust, weathering, they're great fun to work on. Im sure people will accept that you love tanks if you keep an upbeat and friendly attitude while playing.

It always looks much better than someone who is exploiting rules wording, being a rules lawyer, disagreeing at every move, employing cheesy tactics, or simply is using an army full of tanks that have been drybrushed and had 2 other colours painted on them to score painting points (normally silver tracks and blue lenses on turret rings.

oink
11-08-2011, 10:14
That said, I can't quite see the "theme" in Chimera squads mixed in with Vendetta gunships, a Battle Tank, and Artillery pieces. It sounds like a bit of a power list. Scrapping any one of the above would theme it better;

No Leman Russ or Vendettas? = Artillery convoy escorted by squads in Chimeras to keep up.

No McMeltaVets? = Aerial support group consisting of Vendetta gunships covered by Hydra Flak Tanks and Manticore (potentially-AA for theme) Missile Batteries.

This, in droves. I think I'm looking at dropping the vendettas. As you say, it will give the list a more armoured column feel to it. I will probably replace the pair with a pair of scout sentinels (modelled using scout cars from Ramshackle games to keep a fast mech look) and a lascannon heavy weapon unit to help mitigate the loss of the vendettas cannons. I would still have 75pts free for stuff... so, because I don't have another Hydra I could use an old favourite, a mortar squad... there are quite a few choices to go for. (I have lots of infantry already painted up... its just the tanks that are mostly grey!)

I had been considering dropping the russ executioner, but i just recently finished painting it and am looking forward to fielding it. in its place, I would put a second manticore - and still have tons of points! (if I done this and the above, then I'd have enough points for a hellhound with change!)

Like I said though, the executioner is a litle love affair for me at the minute - you can check out some of my painting for this army on my blog :

oinksterrain.blogspot.com

(the terrain building is on hold whilst I frantically paint tanks!)

AndrewGPaul
11-08-2011, 10:22
"I had been considering dropping the russ executioner, but i just recently finished painting it and am looking forward to fielding it."

Just go ahead and use it then. "I've got a shiny new toy" is the best reason for fielding a unit in your army.

Rated_lexxx
11-08-2011, 18:20
Yes. Its called being a douche bag.

Game, Set, Match

Lord Inquisitor
11-08-2011, 19:19
Can you be too competitive? Yes. But this generally pertains to obnoxious behaviour. Cheating or browbeating your opponent, using rules loopholes, sullen or aggressive attitude, etc., can all stem from being too competitive.

Can you field too hard a list? Not in a competitive setting. Even at a laid-back sort of tournament, expecting players to handicap their own lists is most unreasonable. If non-optimal lists are desired, comp can be introduced.

Being WAAC and having a cheesy list are not synonymous.

big squig
11-08-2011, 21:15
I find that being too competitive does not stem from the army list, but from the player's behavior.

Spider-pope
12-08-2011, 08:33
I had been considering dropping the russ executioner, but i just recently finished painting it and am looking forward to fielding it.

If anything this is more likely to hinder your list than benefit it. From my own experience i know that when i field a lovingly painted model for the first time, it dies within a turn having accomplished sod all.

oink
12-08-2011, 12:14
If anything this is more likely to hinder your list than benefit it. From my own experience i know that when i field a lovingly painted model for the first time, it dies within a turn having accomplished sod all.

Of course, this doesn't bode well, because basically ALL the tanks in my army are newly painted... within the space of 6 weeks in order to be ready for the tournament! You can take a look at some of the progress on my blog: linky (ttp://oinksterrain.blogspot.com/p/gallery.html).

There are a bunch of other chimeras which haven't yet been photographed to make it onto the blog yet, but the link will take you to finished pictures which have made it up...

3 0f 6
12-08-2011, 12:53
Haha, new stuff always dies, when your opponents know it is new, although I had one exception to this:

The first battle I used my space wolf scouts in (4th edition battle), they took out a land raider crusader holding the most expesive death wing terminator unit in the terminator, dreadnought, landraider army) - which won me the game since, I turned my plasma and lascannons on the surviving terminators killing them all before they did anything, best thing was that the squad also took out one of the dreadnoughts, the next turn prior to then getting squished by the other one.





Of course, this doesn't bode well, because basically ALL the tanks in my army are newly painted... within the space of 6 weeks in order to be ready for the tournament! You can take a look at some of the progress on my blog: linky (ttp://oinksterrain.blogspot.com/p/gallery.html).

There are a bunch of other chimeras which haven't yet been photographed to make it onto the blog yet, but the link will take you to finished pictures which have made it up...

Gonders
12-08-2011, 19:27
I find, being a bit of one myself, that tread heads are very rarely over competative.

I think the average tread head, builds an army coz he thinks tanks are ace, not in terms of rules, just in terms of crushing walls, big guns and heavy metal. I know I've done this before.

I think this is what you've done here.

For quite some time, this didn't appear to bother anyone, as the guard were never in the meta game anyway.

With 5th ed, and the latest guard codex, suddenly this has changed. Veterans all have battle psychosis, and have to hide in the back of their transports, leman russ are rock hard with access to veteran crews, and mega weapons fit outs and so on...

So now what we're getting, is our lovingly modelled, converted and painted tanks are getting alot of negitivity and flak from the tournament scene.

as for the solution to this, i don't really know yet. I do know where you're coming from though.

Just my thoughts

Gonders