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Abacus
09-08-2011, 20:42
Being fairly new to Fantasy and having recently purchased a rather large first army at a bulk discount, I'm on the constant lookout for advice on how to better play my Lizardmen.

I have a 2500 pt. list that I'm looking to expand to 3000, and on top of that there are a few general questions regarding the game that I didn't feel like starting an all-new thread for. Without further adieu:

Slann: 460
-Mystery (Life)
-Rumination
-Cogitation
-Cupped Hands
-BSB
-Banner of Discipline

Skink Priest: 395
-Cube of Darkness
-Ancient Steg. mount w/ EotG

30 Saurus: 390
-Spears
-FC

24 Saurus:318
-Spears
-FC

28 Temple Guard: 493
-FC
-Banner of Eternal Flame

6 Chameleon Skinks: 72

6 Chameleon Skinks: 72

2 Salamanders: 150
-6 Skink Handlers

2 Salamanders: 150
-6 Skink Handlers

2500 pts. on the dot.

Now, I have some queries about this list. Firstly, from what I've read, 28 Temple Guard is much larger than average. I wanted a solid cornerstone for the army, especially with Lore of Life buffs, but is this overkill? Dropping 9 of them could get me a decked-out Scar Vet to make a 20-Saurus, 1-Slann unit. Yea or nea?

Next, the EotG. The model looks awesome and it seems great for both magical support and flank charges on engaged enemy units. But it's my understanding that any army with war machines can make mincemeat of it. Since not all armies have Bolt Throwers / etc., is it worth including in an all-comers list?

What's a good size for Saurus blocks? I keep on waffling between 24 and 30 spearmen (spearlizards?). A block of 40+ in horde formation seems tasty, but a single Dwellers could lose me the game.

Any battle reports that show the optimal use of Chameleon Skinks?

And finally, suggestions on how to expand to 3000 points? I could slim down my General to add in a 2nd Slann, or an Oldblood on a Carnosaur. These both seem appealing.

I have the models for 6 Salamanders, though it'd be nice to avoid being kicked in the shins by a frustrated opponent. I have plenty more Saurus and Skinks to add in, either as Skirmishers or Chameleons. I've got cavalry, which sounds fun albiet overpriced, and a 2nd Stegodon that I could deck out any which way.

I really don't know which direction I wanna take the army in, though a 2nd Priest with a Scroll seems pretty solid.

Now, as for the general questions:

- Are there any good guides on how to make the best of deployment, maneuvering, distance gauging, flank charging, etc.?

- Saurus Heroes: What's the optimal way to equip them and the best unit to put them in, given the current metagame? What different roles can they play?

- What's the general purpose of unit champions? It seems like you pay a premium for a single extra attack, and I fail to see how using them in challenges can generally be beneficial. I only include them because everybody else seems to >.>

- Are there any lists of commonly made mistakes involving the rules? So far I've had a death star of Bretonnian knights make an illegal charge into my temple guard, a Hellpit that was technically out of combat slaughter a block of Saurus, and Teclis use one of his abilities to block a cupped-hands miscast when he technically can't.

Cheers!

vinush
09-08-2011, 22:04
Now, I have some queries about this list. Firstly, from what I've read, 28 Temple Guard is much larger than average. I wanted a solid cornerstone for the army, especially with Lore of Life buffs, but is this overkill? Dropping 9 of them could get me a decked-out Scar Vet to make a 20-Saurus, 1-Slann unit. Yea or nea?

Are you putting your Slann in the Temple Guard? If yes, then remember he takes up 4 places, so if you went 6 wide 4 deep you only need 20 TG. If you wanted 5x5, then 21 would be ample.



Next, the EotG. The model looks awesome and it seems great for both magical support and flank charges on engaged enemy units. But it's my understanding that any army with war machines can make mincemeat of it. Since not all armies have Bolt Throwers / etc., is it worth including in an all-comers list?

It's your call, but I think that dropping the EOTG and taking the Skink Priest on foot at level 2 might be better. It frees up 250+ points for Saurus characters, and a separate BSB (if your TG unit breaks in combat you automatically lose your Slann as the BSB due to the BSB rules this edition). The signature spell from Heavens is a decent enough hex, and there are some decent enough spells in the mix despite it being one of the weakest lores.


What's a good size for Saurus blocks? I keep on waffling between 24 and 30 spearmen (spearlizards?). A block of 40+ in horde formation seems tasty, but a single Dwellers could lose me the game.

Why spears? Really you need to be getting these boys into combat quickly as people will shoot at them to try and keep them out of combat. The HW/S parry in combat is excellent in my experience with them. I'd go with 24's and a character (from the points you free up by dumping the Stegadon EOTG) and the points you get from dropping the spears (plus a few left over from the stegadon hopefully) you can get a unit of ranked skinks for an extra banner in a B&G scenario.


And finally, suggestions on how to expand to 3000 points? I could slim down my General to add in a 2nd Slann, or an Oldblood on a Carnosaur. These both seem appealing.

Take the stegadon as either regular with giant bow, or an ancient with giant blow pipes. I'd avoid a second slann as they're hideously expensive and really powerful.

You could add another unit of skinks and some Kroxigors to the two cohorts of Skinks, making them harsh to face in combat, and also fear causing units. You may get lucky with them and get a really decent round of combat out of the units. Failing that, harry with poisoned javelins (quick to fire, so move 6" and shoot without penalty, poisoned attacks!)

I had a unit of skinks (19 skinks, full command, Skink Chief BSB, no Krox's) tie up a unit of knights with an Empire captain in them for three or four turns and eventually wiped them out!


I have the models for 6 Salamanders, though it'd be nice to avoid being kicked in the shins by a frustrated opponent. I have plenty more Saurus and Skinks to add in, either as Skirmishers or Chameleons. I've got cavalry, which sounds fun albiet overpriced, and a 2nd Stegodon that I could deck out any which way.

Yeah, definitely don't take more salamanders. They are really powerful, and can screw a whole unit of knights in a single turn. Very powerful, so 4 should be more than ample. As already mentioned, the Steg could be either regular or ancient, your choice. If you were clever you could magnetise the EOTG and giant bow so you can swap them at will, make the second steg an ancient with giant blowpipes, and you've got all eventualities covered.


I really don't know which direction I wanna take the army in, though a 2nd Priest with a Scroll seems pretty solid.

As I already said, I like skink priests, and if you take a lore for your slann with a lot of magic missiles he can use the skinks for LoS, making the little buggers really nasty! Your opponent has to either let them run wild, or take a lot of effort to take them out and ignore other more powerful elements of your army (and at 3k, if you have 2 stegs on the loose it'll be a really hard decision to make)



- Are there any good guides on how to make the best of deployment, maneuvering, distance gauging, flank charging, etc.?

Use skinks to harry flanks, salamanders with the skinks and run them up the sides. Once you're at the back you have free run, and they aren't something to be ignored.
Your saurus are solid wherever you put them (preferably not directly opposite war machines, but that goes for most things). You want you SMP pretty central so people can benefit from his LD bubble.

You could use the skinks to flank charge units that your saurus charge front on (they have a better movement, so can get into a better position quicker). The chameleon skinks can go warmachine hunting or pick on lone characters with shooting, try not to get into combat with them as they are rather squishy.


- Saurus Heroes: What's the optimal way to equip them and the best unit to put them in, given the current metagame? What different roles can they play?

They're combat monsters, pure and simple. You've got access to two ASF swords both at 25 points, and a sword that grants I10 for a little less (get the bad boys attacking quicker for challenges) give them magical shields or armour (helmets) to get 2+ or 1+ AS for extra hardness.


- What's the general purpose of unit champions? It seems like you pay a premium for a single extra attack, and I fail to see how using them in challenges can generally be beneficial. I only include them because everybody else seems to >.>

They can protect your characters in combat, allowing them to attack r'n'f models when your opponent issues a challenge you don't want to get into. An extra attack is rather useful, and they can be used for character hunting as Saurus champions are probably on par with some heroes out there, and definitely for picking out wizards. Plus they make the unit look more complete. Others may have more on this than me, but they're essentially a cheap character.


- Are there any lists of commonly made mistakes involving the rules? So far I've had a death star of Bretonnian knights make an illegal charge into my temple guard, a Hellpit that was technically out of combat slaughter a block of Saurus, and Teclis use one of his abilities to block a cupped-hands miscast when he technically can't.

This is a learning curve, to be honest. Keep playing, and make sure you know as much of the core rules as you can...

Would you like to elaborate on the illegal charge?

THE \/ince

Abacus
10-08-2011, 00:05
Wow, thanks for the lengthy reply, man!


Are you putting your Slann in the Temple Guard? If yes, then remember he takes up 4 places, so if you went 6 wide 4 deep you only need 20 TG. If you wanted 5x5, then 21 would be ample.

So I take it that 20 TG are capable of holding their own as an anvil/grindstone, then. Good; that'll certainly save me some points.


It's your call, but I think that dropping the EOTG and taking the Skink Priest on foot at level 2 might be better. It frees up 250+ points for Saurus characters, and a separate BSB (if your TG unit breaks in combat you automatically lose your Slann as the BSB due to the BSB rules this edition). The signature spell from Heavens is a decent enough hex, and there are some decent enough spells in the mix despite it being one of the weakest lores.

Point taken; consider the EotG dropped from the 2500 list. How would you feel about two lvl. 1 Priests attached to different Saurus units on different parts of the board, each channeling and using Iceshard Blizzard as needed? 1 Scroll, 1 Cube. Too much anti-magic? And do I really need to worry about a Stubborn, Ld 10, re-rollable Slann breaking?


Why spears? Really you need to be getting these boys into combat quickly as people will shoot at them to try and keep them out of combat. The HW/S parry in combat is excellent in my experience with them. I'd go with 24's and a character (from the points you free up by dumping the Stegadon EOTG) and the points you get from dropping the spears (plus a few left over from the stegadon hopefully) you can get a unit of ranked skinks for an extra banner in a B&G scenario.

I went spears because that's how the majority of them came assembled. I ought to have enough spare bits for a single HW/S unit, though. Are you suggesting a Scar Vet in each of the two units?


Yeah, definitely don't take more salamanders. They are really powerful, and can screw a whole unit of knights in a single turn. Very powerful, so 4 should be more than ample. As already mentioned, the Steg could be either regular or ancient, your choice. If you were clever you could magnetise the EOTG and giant bow so you can swap them at will, make the second steg an ancient with giant blowpipes, and you've got all eventualities covered.

Gotcha. At 3k, would a large-target target-saturation strategy work with an Ancient, an EotG and a Carnosaur?


They're combat monsters, pure and simple. You've got access to two ASF swords both at 25 points, and a sword that grants I10 for a little less (get the bad boys attacking quicker for challenges) give them magical shields or armour (helmets) to get 2+ or 1+ AS for extra hardness.

And where's the best place to put them - Strengthening Saurus units, turning the Slann/TG into a mini death star? Sticking 'em on Cold Ones and riding them off into the sunset?


They can protect your characters in combat, allowing them to attack r'n'f models when your opponent issues a challenge you don't want to get into. An extra attack is rather useful, and they can be used for character hunting as Saurus champions are probably on par with some heroes out there, and definitely for picking out wizards. Plus they make the unit look more complete. Others may have more on this than me, but they're essentially a cheap character.

Hm, worth consideration...


This is a learning curve, to be honest. Keep playing, and make sure you know as much of the core rules as you can...

Would you like to elaborate on the illegal charge?

THE \/ince

I hear ya on the learning curve bit. I found out about the illegal charge here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312657), and the Hellpit Abom shenanigans here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308230).

vinush
10-08-2011, 00:24
I'm on my phone, so the reply won't be as in depth this time, but I hope to cover everything. And bear in mind this is from a non tourney background, so semi competitive.

21 TG with the slann would make a 5x5 footprint, so that would be ample I'd think. As you point out, they're ld 10 rerollable. I'm still not overly convinced of taking the slann as the bsb. It's a small risk, but a risk none the less.

If you have the points, go for 2 level 1 skinks, but I wouldn't add them into units, keep them free flowing. Cloak of feathers or magic carpet would be handy on 1, especially if you have some good magic missile spells. Fly the little guy so he's right up in the enemy's business then unleash magical death through the little guy.

If you can, mix them up so that some of each unit are spears, others are hand weapon, and as long as the front rank is HW, and you tell your opponent at the start of the game you should be ok to have both units as HW/S. A scar vet in each unit will really make them pop in combat. 4 str5 attack are going to hurt.

Ill be honest, as much as it pains me to say this, a carnosaur may just end up being a liability for your old blood. I love the model, I just hunk he's asking to be shot to high hell.

Your Saurus characters really are best served in the units supporting them. If you have the points available, stick one in with the TG too. They will be a nightmare to deal with, but the uber spells will make mincemeat of the unit due to low I values.

Oh god, I remember getting involved in the rules debate on closing the door. How did your opponent react when you told him about it?

THE \/ince

The bearded one
11-08-2011, 22:11
I would like to add something concerning gear for the saurus characters. They're real beasts. High strenght, lots of attacks, and very tough. I use on myself too, and I think the best weapon for him (it is absolutely great) is the burning blade of chotec, which grants flaming attacks and a -2 modifier to armoursaves. That's -4 to armoursaves if you factor his strenght in! My own scar veteran has the burning blade of chotec, the dragonhelm, light armour and a shield, so a 2+ save and 20 points left for something else.

While taking the Slann as a BSB is a slight risk, I think it is actually more risky to have a seperate BSB walking around, as any other BSB is far more fragile than the slann simply by virtue of that they are in the front rank of units. A BSB Slann in the second rank of TG is hard to kill except by killing all of the TG and the chance of failing a ld10 cold blooded rerollable leadership test is incredibly small. Heck, once I kept a staffmember busy for about 10 minutes trying to fail that leadership test :p Having the general and BSB centered in one model grants some simplicity. If you're in range, you have both benefits at the same time.

Funny enough I have found that the right number for my TG was difficult to balance (but then again they are deployed 8 wide, they kinda attract violence). At first I used 30, which seemed to be overkillalicious most of the time. Then I nerfed myself a bit down to 25, and they started dying far too quikly. I think I have found my balance at 28, but they're not just a bunker but a hammer as well.

Yakovs
11-08-2011, 22:41
I'm not an expert on lizardmen but some saurus builds i like and seem somewhat popular would be:
Scar-vet, Light armour, shield, Sword of the hornet, Dragonhelm, Venom of the firefly frog. 138
Scar-vet, Light armour, shield, Burning blade of chotec, Enchanted shield, dragonbane gem. 133
Scar-vet, Light armour, shield, piranha blade, Banehead/Other tricksters shard. 143

Another build that seems quite amusing:
Saurus oldblood, Fencers blades, Aura of Quetzl, Glittering scales. 245 This is well over the top so you could drop the Aura for some magic armour/enchanted items etc

vinush
12-08-2011, 11:05
Yakovs, just one thing: Venom of the firefly frog only affects mundane weapons. Since Scar-Vets don't have ranged weapons you can save 10 points by removing it.

THE \/ince

vinush
12-08-2011, 11:08
Also, the oldblood build is excellent, although a little overkill. WS 10 means average WS models will be hitting on 5's, so the -2 to hit means they need 6's then 4's, but I don't think you can get worse in combat than a 6 to hit (I may be wrong on that though...)

THE \/ince

Yakovs
12-08-2011, 12:55
The oldblood build was just so that elites/characters hit him on 6s :)
You're right about the poison thing, it was a last thought addition as i figured Reroll hits + poison :yes:. sorry my bad it slipped my mind.

vinush
12-08-2011, 19:25
No problem man, we all make mistakes. I accidentally took more Heroes than I was allowed, but the stuff I took that wasn't used (magical armour, a rank of Saurus warriors) would have been enough to boost the hero-level Saurus up to Lord level so really I only harmed myself.

THE \/ince