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DaSpaceAsians
10-08-2011, 17:28
I've begun my Empire Army and Fantasy and so far I'm wondering how many men per ranks and how many ranks. For example, if I have 30 Halbardiers, should I rank 5x6, 6x5 or 10x3? In general, what's the formula for ranking?

Ramius4
10-08-2011, 17:37
There is no 'formula'. 90% of that decision depends upon what you're facing across the table.

DaSpaceAsians
10-08-2011, 17:51
Can you give me an example?

RanaldLoec
10-08-2011, 18:06
Say your facing a horde of 30 Slaanesh demonettes or chaos warriors who Excel in clearing low toughness and low armour save infantry like say 40 empire halberdiers.

You go five wide to minimise casualties so your unit keeps steadfast allowing time for another unit to hit they flanks.

In a wide frontage vs the above the halberdiers would suffer allot of casualties and most likely break due to losing steadfast.

Halberdiers Vs a low quality opponent like skeletons or bretonnian man at arms go wider to maximize damage.

Troops like Swordsman or spearmen work better in a narrow frontage as their more defensive and tend to receive charges rather than make them.

Greatswords go wide they hit hard and are stubborn so ranks art as important unless you want to deny an opponent steadfast.

Empire troops don't hit hard and ain't as tough as most other infantry.

That's only a quick overview but it gives you an idea.

[DaT]Seraf
10-08-2011, 18:14
your halbediers and great weapon troops should probably be placed -to keep 30 as an example - as a 10x3 unit giving you 30 attacks with the weapon rules.

A spear unit should either be 5x3 or rather (10x4)+ to get all the attacks you can possibly get

if you need tarpits/anvils however you want to call em, troops to stop an enemy, make em deep in ranks...5x6 or more. they will be steadfast making em stubborn.

as said it depends on what your facing but that should give you a good example on what is possible

specific for empire:

your
your swordsman(handweapon+shield) 5x6 or deeper
your twohanders(greatweapons,halbediers) 10x3

hope it helps

DaSpaceAsians
10-08-2011, 19:10
Ahh thank you everyone. I think it's time to renumber all my bases and cut out new mouvement trays -_-'. As for Handgunners, it's always two ranks right and what about knights?

Tuttivillus
10-08-2011, 19:22
handgunners & xbows in to ranks, right. About cavalry, it depends how many models in a unit, but generally go for maximasing your damage. I tend to field unit(s) of 10-12 man strong, so it's 5*2 or 6*2.

RanaldLoec
10-08-2011, 19:44
Or 10 by 3 for knights :D

I find 12 in 6 by 2 works nice much smaller and a couple of casualties renders the unit ineffectual for disrupting ranks.

Jericho
10-08-2011, 19:44
My ideal situation for most cheap(ish) races is to use 40-strong units with a pair of 5x4 movement trays. Reforming between 5x8 and 4x10 takes 10 seconds, most of which is making sure all the command are in one tray :D

Totally agree that you will want to flip flop back and forth depending on the scenario (ie. the Battle for the Pass or whatever it's called), the number of detachments you use (which all take up space in your battle line), potential scenery bottlenecks and -- of course -- your opponent's damage output.

As an example, let's say you have a unit of 40 Halberdiers that have to fight a unit of 30 Bloodletters w/ Herald. Those Bloodletters will be getting 20+ casualties in the first round if they all attack. In theory you could horde out and do a lot of damage back with halberds (especially with a Warrior Priest), but when taking huge casualties like that you won't have enough models to get any real benefit from horde formation and the additional rank's worth of attacks for very long. More than likely, your unit would swing back and cause a decent handful of wounds before getting obliterated on combat resolution and running away.

On the other hand, if you went 5x8 you would cause very few casualties but most likely soak their damage and (thanks to nearby General/BSB) pass your Break Test. Hopefully you could swoop in with allied units to rescue them before the Halberdiers get whittled away to nothing.

I'd agree that Swordsmen are excellent 5-wide since their attacks aren't very potent anyway. Greatswords (with stubborn and S5) are great horde candidates. Halberdiers are much more flexible, as they can happily operate anywhere in between, assuming your units are big enough. Since each of them cost a nickel, your biggest limit is how many you want to paint and try to rank up together :)

Chimera
10-08-2011, 23:42
...and in ANY Empire unit that you're expecting to kill anything, add a Warrior Priest if you can find the points. Magic items optional.

Okuto
11-08-2011, 01:29
I say go five wide.......our guys are way too weak to kill anything so you need the ranks more than the kills....

RanaldLoec
11-08-2011, 05:31
I say go five wide.......our guys are way too weak to kill anything so you need the ranks more than the kills....

No no no its so important not to make blanket statements like this.

The opponent, scenario and battlefield situation all dictate what formation is more effective.

Yes by all means Vs better quality infantry that hit hard go narrow on your frontage.

Vs the likes of clan rats, skeletons, goblins, other empire statetroops, men at arms we can use our better quality troops to kill stuff for a change.

Greatswords operate best when maximizing there damage output in a horde formation 30 or more strong.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-08-2011, 09:34
Seraf;5703379']your halbediers and great weapon troops should probably be placed -to keep 30 as an example - as a 10x3 unit giving you 30 attacks with the weapon rules.


Against I2 opponents, yes. 30 men are however not nearly enough for a horde formation, as you are losing attacks with each and every casualty, and Halberdiers will suffer casualties. Such a small unit should always be fielded in 5x6 formation. Even Clanrats can win a fight against Halberdiers.

[DaT]Seraf
11-08-2011, 14:19
Against I2 opponents, yes. 30 men are however not nearly enough for a horde formation, as you are losing attacks with each and every casualty, and Halberdiers will suffer casualties. Such a small unit should always be fielded in 5x6 formation. Even Clanrats can win a fight against Halberdiers.

he used 30 so i took that as a point to start

i agree that a horde should(if possible) be at least 10x4 and smaller units are often stronger in a 5x6 formation but for example vs dwarfs/orks even empire units should be used in broader formation to get more attacks

its a situational thing

Lord Solar Plexus
11-08-2011, 15:45
Seraf;5705409']he used 30 so i took that as a point to start


I realized what number he has. ;) Except for a few very special circumstances, I'd still field them in a bus formation. Although there is no guarantee that they will retain more ranks than a horde of 30 Bloodletters after the smoke clears.

snottlebocket
11-08-2011, 19:52
Can you give me an example?

If you think you can beat them in combat, rank wide to maximize your attacks.

If you fear you can't beat them, rank narrow and deep to take advantage of that steadfast leadership.

But for empire, the best if both if you have the points and models for it. Get 50 to 100 halbediers and go 10 wide, as deep as possible with a warrior priest to egg them on. For ever model in contact with the enemy you get 3 strength 4 attacks with rerolls to hit on the first round.

Noght
12-08-2011, 19:19
Against I2 opponents, yes. 30 men are however not nearly enough for a horde formation, as you are losing attacks with each and every casualty, and Halberdiers will suffer casualties. Such a small unit should always be fielded in 5x6 formation. Even Clanrats can win a fight against Halberdiers.

+1.
Why would you assume Empire State Troops can beat Clanrats?
Empire core troops (Flagellants and Knights exempted) don't really win straight up combats ever. They need character or magic buff support to even consider it, sorry that's just the way it is.

Noght

Boreas_NL
13-08-2011, 07:29
Empire core troops (Flagellants and Knights exempted) don't really win straight up combats ever. They need character or magic buff support to even consider it, sorry that's just the way it is.


Nope, simply not true (Don't want to be rude so I'll compromise a bit;))... I will be the first to admit that Empire Core troops are not the toughest units around but they can win combats. You just have to give them the means to do so. The regular Empire troops are rather cheap, so make sure you get enough of them. They are but men, so they will need all the numbers they can get, if you can, make sure to outnumber your opponent.

And I can't believe nobody mentioned detachments before! Using these can be all the difference between a hard fought victory or a pile of plastic corpses. I field a regular unit of 40 Halberdiers which can be supported by two 20 strong units of either Swordsmen, Spearmen, Free Company or Handgunners. There is no magic in a well-timed counter charge or devastating support fire...

Aside from that, adding a Warrior priest is never a bad idea (I never take to the field without at least two, preferably more).

Noght
13-08-2011, 15:07
Nope, simply not true (Don't want to be rude so I'll compromise a bit;))... I will be the first to admit that Empire Core troops are not the toughest units around but they can win combats. You just have to give them the means to do so. The regular Empire troops are rather cheap, so make sure you get enough of them. They are but men, so they will need all the numbers they can get, if you can, make sure to outnumber your opponent.

And I can't believe nobody mentioned detachments before! Using these can be all the difference between a hard fought victory or a pile of plastic corpses. I field a regular unit of 40 Halberdiers which can be supported by two 20 strong units of either Swordsmen, Spearmen, Free Company or Handgunners. There is no magic in a well-timed counter charge or devastating support fire...

Aside from that, adding a Warrior priest is never a bad idea (I never take to the field without at least two, preferably more).

You tell me it's not true then you say they need Warrior Priests...:p. That's what I said, they need character or magic buff support.

Problems with Detachments:
1. Smart opponents charge them, not the parent unit.
2. Bringing a unit of 20 core troops into the flank of a real combat unit means more casualties than the +2 Combat Res provided by the supporting charge.
3. Ballistic Skill 3 Stand and shoot, needing 5 to hit, won't make a hill of beans when the combat starts, especially at 8 points/model (2 points less than Dark Elf Xbows, let that roll around your noggin for a bit..)

I LOVE my Empire but State Troops don't EVER win a straight up fair fight, my job is to make it as unfair as possible with War Machines, Magic Buffs, and Character support (Warrior Priests).

The killers are War Machines, Flagellants, Greatswords, and Knights...
Noght

RanaldLoec
13-08-2011, 18:47
+1.
Why would you assume Empire State Troops can beat Clanrats?
Empire core troops (Flagellants and Knights exempted) don't really win straight up combats ever. They need character or magic buff support to even consider it, sorry that's just the way it is.

Noght

Swordsman, halberdiers even spearmen can beat clan rats, with or without detachments.

Higher weapon skill and equal initiative, Higher strength or more attacks can swing a combat. Clan rats aren't chaos warriors or demons I fail to see how you can be so sure that statetroops will lose to them every time.

Detachments set back 6 to 8 inches from the parent units front rank will most likely be out of charge range.

Detachments add more than +2 they negate the enemy rank bonus and will only take 7 return attacks if 5 wide. Against Skaven negate ranks also means losing the SIN bonus. Also it negate the parry ward have

So vs skaven a 20 strong detachment 5 by 4 will give

so +1 for the charge
+1 for the flank
Negate rank bonus effectively -3 to your opponents score
Limited return attacks so your opponent can't reduce you past 10 with just clan rats or storm vermin
negates parry ward

I'd say that's a good arguement for Detachments.

Agoz
13-08-2011, 19:25
with 30 man units I like to take them in 6x5 formations. though with halberds I like to keep the units bigger, 50 man in a 10x5 formation has enough staying power to be a viable combat unit.

Noght
13-08-2011, 20:17
Swordsman, halberdiers even spearmen can beat clan rats, with or without detachments.

Higher weapon skill and equal initiative, Higher strength or more attacks can swing a combat. Clan rats aren't chaos warriors or demons I fail to see how you can be so sure that statetroops will lose to them every time.


Let's leave Detachments aside, you may have described the single situation that Detachments might work, however...

Clanrats are +1 Init, -2 Leadership (+1 with SIN), -1 point...so your unit of 40 Halberdiers or Spearmen is facing 50 Clanrats.

Clanrats are equal Init,-1 WS, -2 Leadership (+1 with SIN), -2 points vs Swordsmen so your 40 Swordsmen will equal 60 Clanrats.

I submit to you the extra 10 (or 20) wounds will swing the combat the majority of the time....Because they are Cheaper and Faster and equally strong and tough.

Noght

P.S. I just played in a tourney where my 40 Halberdiers + Arch Lector General in Horde Formation charged a -1 Str (Enfeebled) unit of 25 Dark Elf Spearmen in a 5x5 formation and still got my A$$ kicked. So yeah I generally believe that Empire State Troops don't win combats.

Kjata
14-08-2011, 08:15
Please people... instead of arguing who would win between Clanrats and State Troops (honestly tho, who cares? I'm more worried about the guns and monsters they can bring...) just crunch some numbers and prove your point...

RanaldLoec
14-08-2011, 08:48
Let's leave Detachments aside, you may have described the single situation that Detachments might work, however...

Clanrats are +1 Init, -2 Leadership (+1 with SIN), -1 point...so your unit of 40 Halberdiers or Spearmen is facing 50 Clanrats.

Clanrats are equal Init,-1 WS, -2 Leadership (+1 with SIN), -2 points vs Swordsmen so your 40 Swordsmen will equal 60 Clanrats.

I submit to you the extra 10 (or 20) wounds will swing the combat the majority of the time....Because they are Cheaper and Faster and equally strong and tough.

Noght

P.S. I just played in a tourney where my 40 Halberdiers + Arch Lector General in Horde Formation charged a -1 Str (Enfeebled) unit of 25 Dark Elf Spearmen in a 5x5 formation and still got my A$$ kicked. So yeah I generally believe that Empire State Troops don't win combats.

All that proves is your dice hate you.;)

Really one tournament combat means little, statistically compare statetroops to any compareable low quality infantry and they can win.

I've been playing with Empire a looonnngg time and my experiences differ to yours.

Compare them statistically to any better quality infantry they lose.

I think statetroops can win you think statetroops can only lose, fair do's but you've failed to convince me and I've failed to convince you.

Our opinions in this issue differ, which is fine.

xxRavenxx
14-08-2011, 09:18
Ahh thank you everyone. I think it's time to renumber all my bases and cut out new mouvement trays -_-'.

These (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470008a&prodId=prod1590010) are your friends :)

TheMadMarquis
24-08-2011, 15:31
Instead of bickering, it's perfectly easy to actually work out mathematically how Empire state troops match up to their rivals. Assuming static combat, using equal points values, and taking into account all special rules and the effect of striking order:


30 Swordsmen versus 40 Clanrats, in 5-wide "bus formation":

Turn 1: Swordsmen kill 1.8 Clanrats, Clanrats kill 1.36 Swordsmen

... carries on like this for absolutely ages, with Swordsmen winning combat by an average of 0.44 until enough Swordsmen die that they start losing attacks ...

Turn 16: Swordsmen kill 1.73 Clanrats, Clanrats kill 1.36 Swordsmen

Turn 17: Swordsmen kill 1.42 Clanrats, Clanrats kill 1.36 Swordsmen

... after this the Swordsmen are doomed, but the odds are that the Clanrats would have failed at least one break test up to this point, as even on Ld10 Steadfast you 'll fail on average one roll in 12.

So it would seem that they're pretty fairly matched. However, this is a bit misleading: as bussable infantry, they're not meant to face each other, but rather to hold up nastier units. The Clanrats, with their greater numbers, perform this job better than the Swordsmen with their extra Weapon Skill.

Having done quite a bit of number crunching I'd agree that overall Empire Halberdiers and Swordsmen are slightly but not horribly overpriced, certainly compared to Skaven but even compared to more balanced armies like Beastmen and Warriors. You'd expect this, of course, because it was priced at a time when Detachment was a very useful rule, which it no longer is.

Spearmen are rubbish, but then everyone knows that.

DaSpaceAsians
01-09-2011, 14:08
Why are spearmen rubbish?

TheMadMarquis
01-09-2011, 14:48
Well, not rubbish, but almost always inferior to Halberdiers, because a) Halberdiers can charge without losing all hitting power and b) even defensively Spearmen are actually very slightly worse against almost any conceivable opponent.

Vs WS3 T3, Light armour: 2 S4 attacks cause 0.66 wounds, 3 S3 attacks cause 0.62 wounds

Vs WS4 T4 Heavy armour: 2 S4 attacks cause 0.41 wounds, 3 S3 attacks cause 0.33 wounds.