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The Anarchist
12-08-2011, 15:29
it strikes me that playing high elves they have a wonderfull anvil in the part of high quality spearmen backed by some good archers. but when it comes to the part of the hammer they seem a lil lacking to me, the lion chariot is possible bit not great. the other option that occurs to me is the dragonmage for a very expensive hammer.
I'm playing a themed campagin with a few mates when we all go abroad soon and have lots of spare time between shifts, so going to be building both DE and HE force. my DE I play with hydras and coldone knights as a hammer. dragonknights just don't seem up to the task though these days.

what are you other HE players using as your hammer these days?

abdulaapocolyps
12-08-2011, 15:55
White lions?
Sword masters?

enyoss
12-08-2011, 16:03
Swordmasters are just about the best hammer unit in the game, 2 attacks each, mostly re-rolling misses, and strength 5. White Lions are also great against higher toughness and well armoured enemies.

So, yeah, it's Hammer Time for High Elves in 8th.

calnen
12-08-2011, 16:07
!!Swordmasters!! Ideally with their own life or beasts mage to buff them up, so they dont all get shot to death.

The Anarchist
12-08-2011, 16:10
i know the stats for swordmasters and lions is awesome but they lack the relative manuverability most most hammer units, added to the fact Swordmasters are arrow magnets that have totaly lacking protection with just heavy armour.

Ramius4
12-08-2011, 16:29
they lack the relative manuverability most most hammer units,

How do you figure that? With a 5 Movement I find elves plenty fast enough. I guess I'm wondering what you believe all the 'faster' hammer units others are using are.

And if that is the way your thinking runs, then why not use Silver Helms or Dragon Princes for your hammer type unit?

hellz
12-08-2011, 16:37
Swordmasters, White Lions, Dragon Princes, even Silver Helms can be an effective hammer if you use a mounted Prince (okay, your prince is a hammer unit and the silver helms are extra wounds).

I'd argue that they have better maneuverability than a lot of hammer units due to not requiring giant blocks (7x2, small space!) and movement 5. High elf hammers aren't meant to be able to march up the field by themselves, run into a big unit, and run straight through them. Universal toughness 3 means you need to choose your battles and your tactics the entire game, starting with deployment. I assure you, hitting the front of a unit with spears and the flank with 14 Swordmasters (or White Lions or Princes, pick your poison) will end up with a lot of dead <insert any unit here> with minimal losses to yourself. Even if it's only 14 Swordmasters against almost anything, 21 Str 5 ASF with probable reroll misses is going to do its job.

Pyriel
12-08-2011, 17:40
hammer unit?...
swordmasters, with the aid of a mage casting Flesh to Stone or shield of sapherry.

and the HE anvil unit isnt spearmen: it's phoenix guard. building a HE competitive force is very easy- mages focused n survivability buffs, superMINIMUM core, max out phoenix guard and swordmasters.

there are many other ways to play high elves, but this is the easiest and it works.

The bearded one
12-08-2011, 17:46
hiring dwarfs :p

Tuttivillus
12-08-2011, 19:00
Well, HE lacking hammers and maneuverability? Movement from 5 till 9, great banners availible, c'mon mate, really?
As others stated White Lions, swordmasters, dragon princes, silver helms, starting with white lions which are really heavy and fast(wood strider).
Elves aren't maybe best armoured, but if they would nobody would have played with you. Just use your magics! :)

nzkoston
13-08-2011, 02:19
silver helms are a disgusting waste of points! yuck! take dragon princes anytime you even slightly consider silver helms.

Tarian
13-08-2011, 02:34
Think you have the problem reversed, HE have hammers, but few anvils in my opinion, a real "glass cannon" army.

hobbs3023
13-08-2011, 04:07
What? This has to be a troll.


it strikes me that playing high elves they have a wonderfull anvil in the part of high quality spearmen backed by some good archers. but when it comes to the part of the hammer they seem a lil lacking to me, the lion chariot is possible bit not great. the other option that occurs to me is the dragonmage for a very expensive hammer.
I'm playing a themed campagin with a few mates when we all go abroad soon and have lots of spare time between shifts, so going to be building both DE and HE force. my DE I play with hydras and coldone knights as a hammer. dragonknights just don't seem up to the task though these days.

what are you other HE players using as your hammer these days?

eron12
13-08-2011, 05:57
silver helms are a disgusting waste of points! yuck! take dragon princes anytime you even slightly consider silver helms.

If I'm looking for a bus to put a mounted prince or both a prince and a BSB silver helms work nicely. While they lack the killing power of DPs the prince helps make up for that. They can get the same save as DPs (important for a bus) and are cheaper. I wouldn't use them out on their own, but taking attacks and saving wounds for a prince (and provinding some static combat res) is something they can do.

Agoz
13-08-2011, 06:33
A prince on an eagle is a pretty good hammer as well.

leecutter
13-08-2011, 07:05
I don't think the silver helms do have the same save as dragon princes at least in tournament play where most armies have a unit with flaming attacks, or lore of metal to deal with your knights. As for speed I take banner of swiftness on my sword-masters.

Pyriel
13-08-2011, 07:31
I don't think the silver helms do have the same save as dragon princes at least in tournament play where most armies have a unit with flaming attacks, or lore of metal to deal with your knights. As for speed I take banner of swiftness on my sword-masters.


+1. usualy, Banner of Eternal Flame, or equivalent, is put on one of the most hard-hitting units, possibly even a deathstar unit. it is easy to charge with dragon princes and get that unit stuck in cc forever (lets face it, 2+ save 2+ ward isnt realy that easy to take out...)

also, Dragon Princes are some of the last heavy cavalry available for competitive play:

given that currently heavy cavalry's only role in 8th sadly is to charge on the flank of an average unit, disrupt it, and use the modifiers to break it, one needs mobility and cheapness, not actual superfighty power on his horsemen.

ten dragon princes cost 365 points, that is WITH full command and banner of ellyrion. they are "practicaly" tougher than most non-deathstar units(2+ save, 2+ ward against fire, 10 models), they can disrupt ranks, and offer a hefty ammount of str 5 attacks with rerolls on the charge with always strikes first.
they are also the most mobile cavalry in the game, with movement of 9(8) and banner of ellyrion allowing you to pass through terrain for your flank attacks with no fear.

they are also very hard to deal with magic cause, lets face it, you're HE, you will control magic phase and wont let the opponent do that. all that for the cost of 365 points for the whole unit plus upgrades, so you could field enormous special infantry/magic users still.

sure, Chaos knights and Blood Knights are stats-wise better.
can they ACTUALY perform said role better ?... wanna disrupt ranks?... i dare you, hypothetical VC player, to take 10 blood knights then. what , you cant, they cost a gazillion points each? thats what i thought so ;) what, they are also much less mobile and terrain can hurt them, albeit rarely, hence you cant do that flank charge with the same ease as dragon princes?...?... poor guys...

given what i said, in an edition when cavalry sucks, Dragon Princes are one of the last competitive cavalry choices.

Oberon
13-08-2011, 09:45
"Only role of heavy cavalry is to disrupt ranks" What? Heavy cavalry is too expensive for that, smaller units for flanking and killing smaller stuff, then wheel in later to help kill the enemy regiments. Ranks are taken by having a bigger unit and killing more than the enemy, heavy cav isn't a viable way to disrupt. Some heavy cavalry is so good at killing they don't *need* to get a flank charge though it of course helps a lot (but only for a turn, thanks to combat reform), I'm thinking dragon princes, chaos knights, cold one knights with BSB, and that's about it.

Single rank of ~6 knights isn't that expensive, and if you don't expect them to break a ranked unit then they can perform at least OK most of the time still.

Spiney Norman
13-08-2011, 10:28
Ummm, so you're bringing 10 Dragon princes in order to disrupt enemy ranks?

Ok, so I shoot at them long enough to kill 1 knight and the unit can no longer perform what you claim is the only thing it can do??? Thats pretty weak to me.

Heavy cavalry are good at killing, thats what they're for, steam in on the charge, wipe out loads, its another unit you want in the flank, preferably an infantry unit with enough ranks to take casualties and still disrupt.

Artinam
13-08-2011, 10:32
The only Heavy cav army that can effectively disrupt ranks is Bretonnia with their lance formation (you only need 6).

eron12
13-08-2011, 17:23
I don't think the silver helms do have the same save as dragon princes at least in tournament play where most armies have a unit with flaming attacks, or lore of metal to deal with your knights. As for speed I take banner of swiftness on my sword-masters.

True, I should have said armor save, not save.

hellz
13-08-2011, 20:31
As I said before, Silver Helms are great when you're just looking for extra wounds for a mounted prince. If I was going to take a unit of 5 or 6 on their own? Dragon Princes. Silver Helms aren't as good as they used to be but they certainly have their niche.