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Gimp
14-08-2011, 12:48
Well been thinking of maybe getting back into fantasy and I really like Warriors of Chaos. Especially Chaos Warriors.

So how do you field them? Now I am talking Weapons, Marks and Numbers?

Seems right now that 18 Warriors with Shields and Mark of Tzeentch seems good but it does not seem "killy" enough.

Yakovs
14-08-2011, 12:56
14/18/21 with Mok, halberds and shields. (you could Mark a unit with something else if you're doing a theme Eg. MoN and then use banner of rage).
15/20/25 with MOT and shields, you could drop a guy to put a killy exalted or your BSB in to help boost their damage output. hope this helps a bit :)

Noght
14-08-2011, 13:04
Dude, they are the Space Marines of the Warhammer Fantasy World. Doesn't matter how you field them, they are the best Core units in the game.

Mark of Khorne seems common for the +1 Attacks armed with Halberds.
Mark of Tzeentch w/HW and Shields for "Durability" and staying power is also very common.

Units of 20ish kind of rule the battlefield with just a touch of support.

Noght

shakedown47
14-08-2011, 13:58
Warriors are hands-down the best Core choice in the game barring magic support. I'm not personally a fan of MoT hand weapon and shield as I don't think it has enough hitting power. Units of 18-20 with halberds, shields, and whichever mark fits your army is plenty good enough. Too many more models approaches the level of cheese as they'll become nearly impossible to deal with, too many fewer and shooting will pick off just enough guys to make the unit almost useless in combat.

Djekar
14-08-2011, 15:18
I have found that units of 15-18 do really well in a meta with only moderate shooting. If your local gaming area is heavier on the boom-boom you might want to bulk up to around 20-24ish, but really that is about the maximum I can recommend.

Having said that, I have fielded units of 40, but it was serious overkill and unnecessary. Looked sexy on the table though.

Jack of Blades
14-08-2011, 16:12
Nurgle: Clunky mark, versus some enemies it makes your units tougher to hit (and here I'm recalling the fluff thinking Nurgle was tougher to wound.....) and against many units it will be useless. Dwarfs and goblins couldn't care less about MoN but human halberdiers (not swordsmen though :rolleyes:) are badly impaired by it. Warriors don't care much about ballistic-based shooting, they want to be safe from high strength armour-ignoring stuff.
Tzeentch: An ok mark and that's about it - doesn't do much for your Chaos warriors but it's still good to have, I'd use it along with halberds instead of shields. Statistically it's a better mark of Nurgle as it too takes away 1/6th of the enemy's chance to kill you but it always works.
Slaanesh: The mark which does its god the least justice, also being the least useful mark by far. Provides an effect the BSB practically already gives and you already re-roll Panic tests through The Will of Chaos too even if you don't include a BSB. Does nothing. Sigh...
Khorne: Boosts your damage output by a third (which is a defensive bonus too against non-huge units as it means less enemies strike back at you), allows a depleted unit of 10 warriors of Khorne to fight as effectively as 20 non-Khorne warriors, costs as much as the mark of Nurgle and practically includes the mark of Slaanesh. Guess what everyone takes? if Chaos warriors don't have this mark it's because they have the mark of Tzeentch and the Banner of Rage (which otherwise goes on Chosen of Tzeentch).

antihelten
14-08-2011, 17:09
Tzeentch: ... Statistically it's a better mark of Nurgle as it too takes away 1/6th of the enemy's chance to kill you but it always works.


Actually mark of nurgle is statistically better than mark of tzeentch, when it works. If the enemies BS shooting normally hits on a 4+, MoN is equal to a 5+ ward save, if they hit on a 5+, it's equal to a 4+ ward save. even if they hit on a 2+ MoN is still slightly better.
As for close combat, when MoN works it either reduces the chance of hitting from 4+ to 5+, or from 3+ to 4+, which is equal to a 5+ ward save, and between a 5+ and 6+ ward save respectively.

But as you mention mark of tzeentch is always on, plus it's cheaper.

Jack of Blades
14-08-2011, 17:53
Actually mark of nurgle is statistically better than mark of tzeentch, when it works. If the enemies BS shooting normally hits on a 4+, MoN is equal to a 5+ ward save, if they hit on a 5+, it's equal to a 4+ ward save. even if they hit on a 2+ MoN is still slightly better.
As for close combat, when MoN works it either reduces the chance of hitting from 4+ to 5+, or from 3+ to 4+, which is equal to a 5+ ward save, and between a 5+ and 6+ ward save respectively.

But as you mention mark of tzeentch is always on, plus it's cheaper.

I was thinking that someone would bring that up.

The thing is that it's only statistically better considered a certain way.

When you take into account that if you roll 6 D6's there's an equal chance that you roll any number, you average out to 1 of each. Let's say you normally hit on 4+ but now you hit on 5+ due to MoN, this means that 2/6 hit-rolls will hit instead of 3/6 - a reduction by 33% - but it still means that MoN took away 1/6th of the to hit rolls. Keeping in mind that there's an equal chance to roll any number this means that the bonus it provides is just as good as taking away 1/6 of all wounds caused, again because there's an equal chance to roll any number, the chance to roll a 4 when rolling to hit is not 33% larger than rolling a 6 when rolling for ward saves. This is the same reasoning that makes -1 to hit when you're hit on 5s already worse than a 5+ ward save (and equal to a 6+ ward save); you haven't reduced the chance of being hit by 1/2, you've reduced it by 1/6. As you mentioned the mark of Tzeentch is always on and it's cheaper too. Am I on? :D

antihelten
14-08-2011, 18:13
... but it still means that MoN took away 1/6th of the to hit rolls. Keeping in mind that there's an equal chance to roll any number this means that the bonus it provides is just as good as taking away 1/6 of all wounds caused


The mistake your making is equating to hit rolls with wounds (ie. saying that taking away 1/6 of to hit rolls is equal to taking away 1/6 of wounds).
However this is wrong and the correct thing to do in this case is equating hits with wounds, and since Mon takes away 1/3 of the hits in the above case it is clearly better than MoT, which takes away 1/6 of the wounds (since taking away 1/3 of the hits automatically also takes away 1/3 of the wounds).

Jack of Blades
14-08-2011, 18:22
But if you roll a D6 twice, what makes the odds of it coming up as a 5 on the first one greater than it coming up as a 6 on the second one?

Then again I think I can see a flaw in my own calculations which is what you might have gotten at... Say you have 30 rolls to hit, this means that with the MoN you'll be taking 10 hits instead of 15. Let's say you're wounded on 5s so that's 3.32, or 3-4 wounds. With the MoT you'll take 15 hits, 5 wounds and you save 1 of them on average... so you'll take 4 wounds. Hmm :wtf: it seems you win! :p

antihelten
14-08-2011, 18:32
But if you roll a D6 twice, what makes the odds of it coming up as a 5 on the first one greater than it coming up as a 6 on the second one?

Nothing, however you don't need a 5 to hit, you need a 5 or higher, and the chances of rolling a 5 or higher are obviously higher than rolling a 6. Twice as high to be exact, or inversely, the chances of hitting on the second roll are only half that of the first roll, which is the same as a 4+ ward save.

Jack of Blades
14-08-2011, 18:40
It's indeed twice as high. But it's twice as high because a 33% chance is two 16,5% chances put together, is it not? so this gives the mark of Tzeentch two chances to roll a 16,5% chance while Nurgle gets one chance to roll 33%. I wouldn't call that twice the chance of success, hm? or it might be/seem so but only because of some quirk. As I showed above warriors of Nurgle take 0,68 less wounds than Tzeentch from 30 WS3 S3 attacks (although I didn't count the armour save but it'll work in Nurgle's favour) but that just proves both of us wrong. I understand the logic you're on about but I don't yet see how it's the truth - just explain it more to me, I'm not trying to be stubborn here.

mrtn
14-08-2011, 19:39
if Chaos warriors don't have this mark it's because they have the mark of Tzeentch and the Banner of Rage (which otherwise goes on Chosen of Tzeentch).
If it's one unit I wouldn't put the Banner of Rage on it's MoT. You want that 5+ ward save, don't you?

sulla
14-08-2011, 19:43
You can still give MoTz warriors halberds, you know? 4+/6++, 3 s5 attacks is pretty good.

Jack of Blades
14-08-2011, 20:03
Yeah, I'd rather have armour piercing S5 attacks and a 6+ save than S4 attacks with a 5+ save.

Quinn
14-08-2011, 21:35
I can't disagree with anything already said, especially since I run these units myself. I would add that a unit of Warriors with AHW and MoK with the Razor Standard is also pretty nasty. Putting out 4 attacks apiece at S4 AP is pretty decent, especially against T3 troops like Elves and Empire. I have a unit of 30 of them that I sometimes run, usually at 10 wide..they put out 61 attacks against other hordes if intact..a lot of fun:skull:!

Sexiest_hero
14-08-2011, 21:56
I actually am thinking about the mark of slaanesh, t make sure my warriors stick until Killed to the last man. That, and after dealing with tzeench warriors and chosen, I feel dirty feilding them, I want both players to have fun.

antihelten
14-08-2011, 22:05
It's indeed twice as high. But it's twice as high because a 33% chance is two 16,5% chances put together, is it not? so this gives the mark of Tzeentch two chances to roll a 16,5% chance while Nurgle gets one chance to roll 33%. I wouldn't call that twice the chance of success, ...

Tbh I think you're just a bit confused, no offence. I suppose you could say that that the tzeentch warrior has two 16,7% chances of being hit (for a total of 33%), but I have no idea where the 33% chance for the nurgle warrior came from, in fact the nurgle warrior only has a 16.7% chance of being hit (only hit on a 6)


I actually am thinking about the mark of slaanesh, t make sure my warriors stick until Killed to the last man. That, and after dealing with tzeench warriors and chosen, I feel dirty feilding them, I want both players to have fun.

You do know mark of slaanesh doesn't affect break tests right, so it wouldn't really help with the sticking around part (I'm assuming your talking about close combat)

mrtn
14-08-2011, 22:05
I actually am thinking about the mark of slaanesh, t make sure my warriors stick until Killed to the last man.They only stick around till they get beaten in combat. ItP =/= Unbreakable.
:)

Marked_by_chaos
14-08-2011, 22:15
I have found the rapturous standard to be great on cw, especially if within 12" of the battle standard.

Really helps for turns when you get hit hard by enemy shock units, particularly when you consider the cost of the unit and the cheapness of the item

Jack of Blades
14-08-2011, 23:39
Tbh I think you're just a bit confused, no offence. I suppose you could say that that the tzeentch warrior has two 16,7% chances of being hit (for a total of 33%), but I have no idea where the 33% chance for the nurgle warrior came from, in fact the nurgle warrior only has a 16.7% chance of being hit (only hit on a 6)

Basing this on WS3 opponents, Tzeentch warriors being hit on 4+ have a 50% (3/6) chance of being hit, Nurgle warriors being hit on 5+ have a 33% (2/6) chance of being hit. Not so confusing as it may have seemed :p

col
15-08-2011, 07:46
I've been thinking of mark of khorne and additional hand weapons. Not as good as halberds on paper maybe, but with a shadow sorceror lord (or fire with flaming sword) these boys can blend anything! I like the raptorous standard but use it on tzeentch units. You really don't want to be losing combats with frenzied troops (lose frenzy) so go for flaming banner, razor standard or something else that will help them win. Standard of discipline is a bargain on a warrior bunker block.

antihelten
15-08-2011, 07:59
Basing this on WS3 opponents, Tzeentch warriors being hit on 4+ have a 50% (3/6) chance of being hit, Nurgle warriors being hit on 5+ have a 33% (2/6) chance of being hit. Not so confusing as it may have seemed :p

Yes but now your mixing being hit by shooting (the previous case with tzeentch being hit on a 5+ and nurgle on a 6+), with close combat (tzentch being hit on a 4+, and nurgle on a 5+). The effectiveness of the mark of Nurgle is different against shooting and close combat attacks, so you can't mix the two.

SkawtheFalconer
15-08-2011, 08:28
I've been thinking of mark of khorne and additional hand weapons. Not as good as halberds on paper maybe, but with a shadow sorceror lord (or fire with flaming sword) these boys can blend anything! I like the raptorous standard but use it on tzeentch units. You really don't want to be losing combats with frenzied troops (lose frenzy) so go for flaming banner, razor standard or something else that will help them win. Standard of discipline is a bargain on a warrior bunker block.

I'm also currently building this. I was considering adding Festus for added naughtiness (that's a LOT of poisoned attacks), although they will work well with Shadow Wiz lord.

The Other
15-08-2011, 08:35
I usually use a massive 24 (6x4) unit of Tzeentch Warriors with Blasted Standard and Sheilds , 3+ armour save and 4+ ranged ward. They are usually supported by Marauders and Trolls on thier flanks. People unload thier ranged on my warriors as the other two are normally not worth it or are slightly behind the main force. By the time they chomp through the warriors it's normally too late.

Jack of Blades
15-08-2011, 11:55
Yes but now your mixing being hit by shooting (the previous case with tzeentch being hit on a 5+ and nurgle on a 6+), with close combat (tzentch being hit on a 4+, and nurgle on a 5+). The effectiveness of the mark of Nurgle is different against shooting and close combat attacks, so you can't mix the two.

I never mixed shooting and close combat... I always said they were being hit on 5+

antihelten
15-08-2011, 15:30
I never mixed shooting and close combat... I always said they were being hit on 5+

my bad, I thought this post:


But if you roll a D6 twice, what makes the odds of it coming up as a 5 on the first one greater than it coming up as a 6 on the second one?


refered to the tzeentch warriors being hit on a 5+, and the nurgle warriors being hit on a 6+. (which could only happen against shooting)

If we just use the example of an enemy with ws 3 hitting the two types of warriors, then as you said the tzeetch warrior gets hit on a 4+ and the nurgle gets hit on a 5+.
This means that the nurgle warrior only takes 2/3 as many hits, which is the same as having a 5+ ward save (and therefore obviously better than the tzeentch 6+ ward save).
This is incidentally also what I said in my very first post in this thread :)

Sexiest_hero
15-08-2011, 19:39
IDK where I got MoS made units unbreakable. there goes my whole army plan, to convert dark eldar into slaaneshi warriors. Now I 'll have to convert them into dark elves instead :(.

cool-kid-on-the-block
16-08-2011, 01:59
i prefer warrior units in large blocks 21+ otherwise shooting and magic really causes havoc with your 17pts dudes. i like 27 with a character(7x4) to form a good sized hammer unit that will probably survive the game it also helps with offensive warriors that are running the risk of being killable (T4 4+ save aint invincible) to be killy. smaller units run the risk of being wiped out easier as well and when it comes to victory points any lost unit of warriors stings...

IcedCrow
16-08-2011, 12:37
I'm running slaanesh currently. The mark may seem "worthless" but has saved me several times. Re-rolling is great, except there are a lot of items out there that will lower your leadership so you'll be re-rolling on say a 5. Not great odds. I'd rather be immune to panic in the first place.

Campaign game last month my buddy's tzeentch unit took on ogres and he lost about 600 points to the ogre's ability to lower your leadership by 3 and then caused a panic check, sending the unit off the table.

Djekar
16-08-2011, 13:43
That is a good reason to run slaanesh. I think it's probably one of those things that is best decided ultimately by the local meta-game. For example, in my local meta we don't have a lot of LD-knocking effects so the reroll from will of chaos is often enough. I can understand via your example that in your environment it is not actually a "worthless" mark.

sulla
16-08-2011, 19:30
That is a good reason to run slaanesh. ....Or Khorne. ;)

Jack of Blades
16-08-2011, 19:32
...Or Khorne. ;)

Couldn't have put it better myself :p