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TMATK
14-08-2011, 22:45
Is it permissable for a giant to slide as part of a combat reform? Thanks

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Mr_Rose
14-08-2011, 22:57
Since you don't have to maintain your centre in a combat reform, yes; as long as you end up in contact with at least as many models as you were when you started.

Tregar
14-08-2011, 23:32
I don't think that kind of slide is possible: the rules are not that you must remain in contact with the same number of models, but rather that you may not take any models out of combat, that were already present. Even though rank and file models are essentially identical, a model is a model, so if you slide down the rank and are in contact with 4 completely different models, you're breaking the rule. Just a little.

Lord Inquisitor
14-08-2011, 23:54
Tregar is right, although it is usually the case that if you're sliding because you've clipped the enemy unit, you can still achieve the slide (if you're in contact with 1 model and want to move inwards, you can do so if you're still in contact with that 1 model).

So yes you can slide BUT all enemy models in combat before the slide must still be in combat (not necessarily with the giant!) afterwards.

For example. A giant is in base contact with an enemy unit with 5 frontage (A-E):

.....................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].......
............[GIANT]..............
.....................................

The giant is in base contact with troopers A, B, C and D. It cannot slide to contact E because that'd bring A out of combat. It also cannot reform to slide and just contact A because that'd bring B, C and D out of combat.

Now a unit on the Giant's side charges in, with models W, X, Y and Z.

...........................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].............
............[GIANT][W][X][Y][Z]..
.........................^..^..^..^...

After the combat the giant can potentially slide with a reform. He can't slide towards E still because that'd bring A out. But he can slide the other way.


...........................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].............
[GIANT][W][X][Y][Z]..............
...........................................


A, B, C, D and E were all engaged before the reform and they're still engaged so this is legal.

wingate32
15-08-2011, 08:01
Wow, this really changed the way I play the game. I was under the impression that you weren't allowed to slide at all. Can someone give me the page references for this so I can show it to my gaminggroup?

Munin
15-08-2011, 08:16
The part about allowing combat reforms to slide is in the FAQ.

jaxom
15-08-2011, 16:19
Would that be the BRB FAQ or something else?

Lord Inquisitor
15-08-2011, 17:59
It's the BRB errata and it's the bit about a combat reform not needing to keep the center model in the same place.

Tregar
15-08-2011, 18:52
Yeah, you won't find an explicit "YOU MAY SLIDE" in an FAQ, but if you put together the slight change with the rulebook, then you'll see you can reform how you like, so long as you don't take anything out of combat.

Lord Inquisitor
15-08-2011, 19:41
It's pretty explicit, the errata changed it to this:

“A combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14), save
for the fact that the centre point of the reformed unit does not
have to stay in the same place.”

The only difference with the original text is that it permits sliding. Put another way, the only thing preventing sliding (other than the rules for not bringing models out of contact as discussed above) was the requirement for the centre point to remain the same after the reform, and that restriction has been removed.

Archis
15-08-2011, 19:58
For arguments sake, can you do the slide in your example with the 2nd unit since the reforms happen one at a time? I mean the giant would have to reform first, moving out of contact with enemy models, before the 2nd unit could fill his spot.

Tregar
15-08-2011, 22:31
It's pretty explicit, the errata changed it to this...

Yes, I know what the FAQ says, thanks. It describes how you can do a reform, and from there it is left up to the reader to work out what the myriad possibilities are from this. That's not explicit. To say it in an "explicit" fashion would mean saying something like "You may even slide sideways to maximise your troops in combat". The big clue that it's not explicit should have been that nowhere does it mention "sliding" or an analogous term for it ;)


The only difference with the original text is that it permits sliding. Put another way, the only thing preventing sliding (other than the rules for not bringing models out of contact as discussed above) was the requirement for the centre point to remain the same after the reform, and that restriction has been removed.

No, this is by FAR not the only difference from the original text! The original text did not prevent sliding, it prevented any kind of reform in which the centre point changes. Just consider that for that means for one second. Take ANY one-on-one frontal combat, and try and reform either unit while keeping the centre point the same. It's not possible, except to change the position of specific models such as characters. In fact pretty much the only combat reforms that you could legally perform before this FAQ were to, say, change the facing of a perfectly square unit after being flanked.

Honestly, this FAQ change was there to do a LOT more than implicitly allow sliding. It was to allow combat reforms to happen at all!

Lord Inquisitor
16-08-2011, 00:54
For arguments sake, can you do the slide in your example with the 2nd unit since the reforms happen one at a time? I mean the giant would have to reform first, moving out of contact with enemy models, before the 2nd unit could fill his spot.
That is a very valid question. I'm not sure the reforms happen sequentially, all it says is the player "makes all of his reforms". Certainly I was assuming that the restrictions would be checked for at the end of all the reforms.

I think lots of icky situations would come up if you did the reforms sequentially. But good point and I think you could argue it your way.


No, this is by FAR not the only difference from the original text! The original text did not prevent sliding, it prevented any kind of reform in which the centre point changes. Just consider that for that means for one second. Take ANY one-on-one frontal combat, and try and reform either unit while keeping the centre point the same. It's not possible, except to change the position of specific models such as characters. In fact pretty much the only combat reforms that you could legally perform before this FAQ were to, say, change the facing of a perfectly square unit after being flanked.

Honestly, this FAQ change was there to do a LOT more than implicitly allow sliding. It was to allow combat reforms to happen at all!
Only by the most anally retentive interpretation of the rules. Noone I knew actually played it like that. The rule states you can make a reform, it was implicit that this could be done even if it would result in a small gap between units (at which point "shrinking units" would kick in).

Certainly it is more technically correct this way for any reform BUT when the errata came out everyone said "wow, you can slide now!" not "wow, that makes a basic turn-to-face as explicitly mentioned in the text possible!"

Anyway, whatever. The centre-point isn't fixed, this permits sliding. We agree.

Tregar
16-08-2011, 11:54
No-one I knew played it like that either, but that's because we recognised the rule was written incorrectly, and were hopeful of an errata, which is what happened :)

When the errata came out everyone I know, who knew that the original rule was phrased incorrectly, was relieved that they corrected an oversight. Then after a bit more consideration they realised that it allowed sliding as well. Many others have never realised it either, even after flicking through the FAQs, which is why threads like this exist :)

I also wondered about what Archis said. Mostly because if you do combat reforms as a collective movement you can do some very bizarre things, like in your diagram you said the Giant can't move away from A as that would remove him from combat, yet at the end of the reform A is still in combat, so by your application the Giant could actually hop all the way to the other side and only be in contact with E! Similarly you could have three units all fighting one enemy to the front, and they could end swapping positions like a "cup 'n' balls" magic trick at the end...

Lord Inquisitor
16-08-2011, 15:35
The issue of the centrepoint reform requiring units being nudged afterwards never even occurred to us. The issue of not being able to often bring more models into the fight because the centrepoint rule prevented sliding was frequently a problem in our games, leaving units stuck "clipping" each other. When the errata came out we immediately realised this permitted sliding. I wasn't aware until this thread there could be any other reason for the change!

Hmm. Good point. So perhaps they are resolved sequentially. I still would check for models being in contact after all reforms otherwise you're going to have some odd situation in multiple combats, like the giant above being unable to slide to allow the other unit to maximise.

PaintByNumbers
17-08-2011, 13:08
Tregar is right, although it is usually the case that if you're sliding because you've clipped the enemy unit, you can still achieve the slide (if you're in contact with 1 model and want to move inwards, you can do so if you're still in contact with that 1 model).

So yes you can slide BUT all enemy models in combat before the slide must still be in combat (not necessarily with the giant!) afterwards.

For example. A giant is in base contact with an enemy unit with 5 frontage (A-E):

.....................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].......
............[GIANT]..............
.....................................

The giant is in base contact with troopers A, B, C and D. It cannot slide to contact E because that'd bring A out of combat. It also cannot reform to slide and just contact A because that'd bring B, C and D out of combat.

Now a unit on the Giant's side charges in, with models W, X, Y and Z.

...........................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].............
............[GIANT][W][X][Y][Z]..
.........................^..^..^..^...

After the combat the giant can potentially slide with a reform. He can't slide towards E still because that'd bring A out. But he can slide the other way.


...........................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].............
[GIANT][W][X][Y][Z]..............
...........................................


A, B, C, D and E were all engaged before the reform and they're still engaged so this is legal.

This example takes the giant out of base contact with 3 enemies. I'm not entirely sure that is legal.

If it were, you could potentially move weak characters off to a side to minimize attacks against them or get them out of base contact with enemy characters.

The rules on the combat reform state that no model may be moved out of contact with an enemy (it does not say enemy unit). Although not defined, wouldn't the term "enemy" refer to each model in the enemy unit?

hamsterwheel
17-08-2011, 21:09
I'm with PaintByNumbers on this one. I don't think you can slide the Giant away from any of the enemy models it was previously touching

We can use your example:
.....................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].......
............[GIANT]..............
.............^.^.^................
Giant charges, wins or loses combat but sticks and decides to combat reform to allow another unit to charge more
.....................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].......
...........[GIANT]<..............
....................................
It can move over a little bit so that it's still corner to corner to D and still in base contact with ABCD.
...........................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].............
...........[GIANT][F][G][H][I]..
.......................^..^..^..^....
This allows FGHI to then charge and get into base contact with CDE, F being in corner to corner with C, whereas before they would only be in base with DE.

Someone on another thread had mentioned a different scenario for a slide

.....................................
.............[GIANT].............
................[A]................
.................^.................

Ethereal model charges GIANT to keep it in combat, GIANT sticks but knows he can't hurt the ethereal model so he combat reforms

.....................................
......[GIANT]<<.............
................[A]................
....................................

He's still in base to base with the ethereal model but now another unit, preferably with magical weapons can now charge the ethereal model.

AMWOOD co
17-08-2011, 21:15
A model may not be removed from the fight, true, but he can be in contact with a different enemy than he was before. This is explained on the main paragraph of Reforming From Victory on p55, last two sentences. The conclusion is that each model must still be in contact with an enemy but not necessarily the same enemy as they were before.

As doubtful as I am about the intention of the Giant shuffle described earlier, I see no wrong in it (all reforms on one side are done at once, so it poses no problems).

NTJ2010
18-08-2011, 07:02
We can use your example:
.....................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].......
............[GIANT]..............
.............^.^.^................
Giant charges, wins or loses combat but sticks and decides to combat reform to allow another unit to charge more
.....................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].......
...........[GIANT]<..............
....................................
It can move over a little bit so that it's still corner to corner to D and still in base contact with ABCD.
...........................................
.........[A][B][C][D][E].............
...........[GIANT][F][G][H][I]..
.......................^..^..^..^....
This allows FGHI to then charge and get into base contact with CDE, F being in corner to corner with C, whereas before they would only be in base with DE.


This works but ONLY if the Giant remains based with at least all the same figures he was at the start of the reforming, which means he can only move over a little bit (you were right just wanted to put emphasis on "a little bit")

Now once unit FGHI joins in, at the end of that round of combat if they are both able to reform the Giant could possibly move over (even all the way to the corner of [A] if need be and F-I can reform over so that all of ABCDE is in base contact with a foe, although very few can now attack the giant.
(the only argument I saw for this above is if it happens sequentially or simultaneously, which could be argued understandably, to be safe do it sequentially, although in the Unusual Situations section it makes ME think that it happens all at once but that's just the "vibe" I get from it, nothing concrete that I've seen).

As for the other example you give, good example that I never really thought of (if stuck on a single ethereal like that you can scooch over to corner-to-corner to allow more room for a better unit.

PaintByNumbers
18-08-2011, 12:58
This really comes down to how you define "enemy"

Pg. 55 REFORMING FROM VICTORY
"...- it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made."

I define enemy as each model from the opposing side. The giant in this example starts in base contact with 4 enemies. If it slides to the side it is moving out of base contact with 3 models.

AMWOOD co
19-08-2011, 00:58
This really comes down to how you define "enemy"

Pg. 55 REFORMING FROM VICTORY
"...- it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made."

I define enemy as each model from the opposing side. The giant in this example starts in base contact with 4 enemies. If it slides to the side it is moving out of base contact with 3 models.

If I may, how do you interpret the last sentence of that paragraph?



The model may be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish.

I can't see how this can possibly deny the sliding giant effect, so long as all the models are still in contact with some opponent at the end.

FashaTheDog
19-08-2011, 02:00
This is one of the better FAQs out there. I have had it happen where a unit ends up being forced to multi-charge two units due to terrain and after a round is only left in contact at its corner with the remaining one. The worst case of this was charging a chariot with my big Tzeentch Warrior block and due to terrain and enemy unit placement was forced to hit the corner of a big block of enemy Marauders. The end result was that for the rest of the game one of my Warriors and one of his Marauders plus the guy behind each got to swing while everyone else cheered from the sidelines.

That dumb oversight is now fixed as I can combat reform to scooch down and actually fight with everyone rather than have a bunch of frenzied Tzeentch Warriors scream obscure and esoteric profanities at their enemies because they're not allowed to move over and fight. Back in the last edition of the game I really played (3rd), there was a rule that required each side to move their farthest file, if unengaged, to the other side until at the end of each round until doing so would no longer allow non-participating files to fight (then rotate the entire combat and moved it slightly based upon who won, potentially grabbing more units). The fact that 8th edition had no such allowance to fix those odd combats has bothered me, but as I said, this is welcome news indeed! :)

Lord Inquisitor
19-08-2011, 03:07
This really comes down to how you define "enemy"

Pg. 55 REFORMING FROM VICTORY
"...- it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made."

I define enemy as each model from the opposing side. The giant in this example starts in base contact with 4 enemies. If it slides to the side it is moving out of base contact with 3 models.

As Amwood pointed out above, the next line gives you permission to be in base contact with a different enemy as long as all the models that were previously in base contact are still in contact with someone.

Kalandros
19-08-2011, 07:06
People need to read the rules whole and not pick out single lines and make a ruling from that.

Silly internets.

Munin
19-08-2011, 08:00
This could become a quite stupid scenario I think, will still allowed.

Before reforms the models stands like this:
.....................................
.............[GIANT].............
................[A]................
.................^.................

Model A anticipates something is fishy when the Giant wants to reform and announce that it want to reform as well. Giant win rolloff and goes first:
.....................................
......[GIANT]<<.............
................[A]................
....................................
Then its A's turn to reform, it does a ld-test with the combat modifiers, succeeds and then combat reforms:
.....................................
......[GIANT]....................
..[A]..............................
....................................
And suddenly have the combat moved on the battlefields 1-2" to the side haha.

On a side note, is it 100% that all reforms on one side are made simultaneously?

b4z
19-08-2011, 09:22
People need to read the rules whole and not pick out single lines and make a ruling from that.

Silly internets.

So... let's just post the full rules with Errata amendments in green for clarity

REFORMING FROM VICTORY

If your unit wins the close combat but the enemy does not flee, or the combat was a draw, your unit can immediately make a combat reform manoeuvre.

A combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14) save for the fact that the centre point of the reformed unit does not have to stay in the same place.

The most common usage of a combat reform is to allow the unit to turn to face its enemy (if attacked in the flank or rear), although it can also be used to bring more models into the fight by increasing the unit's frontage.

There are two special restrictions on a combat reform, however - it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made, and the unit may not reform in such a way as to contact a different facing on any enemy unit it is in contact with.

The model can be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish.


On a side note, is it 100% that all reforms on one side are made simultaneously?

UNUSUAL SITUATIONS

If both sides wish to make (or attempt to make) a combat reform, take any Leadership tests required in order to make the reforms, then roll off to determine which side makes all of his reforms first (the winner of the roll-off decides).

If a unit is engaged to more than one facing (say to the front and one flank), it cannot make combat reforms.

NTJ2010
19-08-2011, 09:45
The Unusual Situations section makes me think that each side does its reforms simultaneously but it doesn't say that, it simply says one side does all his/her reforms then the other side does all their (it doesn't say one by one or all at once).

PaintByNumbers
19-08-2011, 13:43
I'll try to make my point of view a bit more clear.

"- it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe) out of base contact with the enemy if it was in contact before the reform was made."
The giant is a model, it is in contact with 4 models of the opposing unit at the beginning of the reform. If it moves all the way to the edge (corner to corner) it (as a friendly model) has moved out of combat with 3 models (or enemies?).

If you are defining "the enemy" as the entirety of the unit than this would be perfectly legal. But in my opinion, "the enemy" is each individual model from the opposing unit. Therefor, if the giant starts its reform in base contact with 4 models it must still be in base contact with no less than 4 models (or enemies) at the end of the reform to satisfy the line I quoted.

"The model can be in base contact with a different enemy at the end of the reform if you wish." This line does not change the fact that the giant has left combat with 3 models.

This also makes a flank charge against a monster with a long base or cavalry unit, that much more advantageous.