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knightime98
15-08-2011, 06:15
As always diagrams and situations are difficult to say the least. Here is an illustration of the situation..


FFFDDDDDDDDDD
FFFDDDDDDDDDD
FFFDDDDDDDDDD
FFFDDDDDDDDDD
FFFDDDDDDDDDD

D is defender facing either up or down.. Doesn't matter for this part.
F is a flank attacker.

If the flank attackers have initiative and cause say 6 wounds, will the defender since this is in the flank have any return attacks? I've searched high and low in the rule book and can't find this anywhere.

The only thing that I have found is that the supporting attacks are giving to the FRONT only never to the side or rear of a unit.

It is also curious to note that on page 50, striking order really clouds this situation further. It simply says that if a model is killed before their initiative to strike - assuming they have not been killed - get to strike now....

Well this is the krux of the situation, they have been killed and they are not entitled to step up.. Which, I can't find the term Step-up but rather supporting attacks seem to be the definition. Supporting attacks state that pressing forward..... (not to the side or rear).

Anyhow, when casualties are taken they are removed from the rear, however, the fighting models on the flank are the ones that have been 'killed'..

So, the question remains - if the defender loses, for this example, 6 models, will the defender be entitled to ANY attacks back?

I have thus far, not seen any rules that show that they do?

References will be a key to your argument with page numbers and paragraphs.

Many thanks for any resolution to this situation.

Isabel
15-08-2011, 06:35
I dont think GW writes their rules while keeping in mind that their customers can catch every detail :) Like you said, casualties are removed from the back. I've never seen it played any differant or even questioned. 6 would be removed from the back and the side models would get their normal attacks.

knightime98
15-08-2011, 06:48
It is the side models that are killed. The casualties are simply removed from the rear rank as a convenience to keep the unit cohesive. In no way, does this constitute from a rules point of view - the idea that the defenders are entitled to return attacks.

Kudos to you for attempting to address the situation, however, it lacks merit in the form of actual rules in the book. I am looking for the source that says, the defender is entitled to attack back... Simply put, looking for the actual source in the book that says, this is so....

Many thanks for any help from anyone that can resolve this issue.

*Edit - So far, I have seen rules that support the idea that the defender in this case does not have any return attacks
*End Edit

Yrrdead
15-08-2011, 06:50
Yes the defender will get attacks back.

F unit charges, attacks first.
Remove casualties per pg 51. This section hopefully answers your main question.
Unit D attacks back per pg 48 and 49.

Seems pretty clear.

knightime98
15-08-2011, 07:17
Finally, I see the one liner that solves the mystery.

pg. 51 under "Remove Casualties".......
"Models that have stepped up to replace the fallen CAN FIGHT, provided that their initiative step has not passed."

This is what I needed to see. The proof. Here unlike the other references, it does not discriminate for "the front" only. It simply dictates that they 'step-up'.

Looking for clarity from GW is like looking in a Swamp in Mississippi for a lost ring. Good luck! (Now, I sigh and point to my own signature).

Mercules
15-08-2011, 13:46
While GW rules are mostly written from a, "Hey lets have some fun and play with our miniatures we painted." perspective and not, "Hey lets build a tight and well thought out tournament game." they do ok. Part of the issue is people over thinking themselves right out of a fairly clear answer.

Models in base contact at their initiative pass? Check, so they get to attack. It's that simple.