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View Full Version : 1000pts VC/WoC - Still hesitating !



Manta
15-08-2011, 09:25
Hi there,

Im a 40K player for 5-6 years and Im still looking WB games with a lot of interest but, because it's a lot of cash and time to spend in, Im still making army lists without palying at all...

I really like WoC and VC for their appearance so I tried two 1K lists to have some informations and advice !

Vampire Counts 1K

Heroes
Vampire: Lord of the Death + Flayed Hauberk + Tomb Blade -> 165pts
Will go with the Skeletons to have a bēg renewable wall of them!

Vampire: Summon Ghouls + Dark Acolyte + Cadaverous Cuirass -> 160pts
Will join the Ghouls and cast some nasty things!

Core
20 Skeleton Warriors: EMC -> 180pts
The main block wich will grow during all the game...

20 Ghouls -> 160pts
Ghoul's Master guard, usefull to fight against big E ennemies!

15 Ghouls -> 120pts
Usefull to fight against big E ennemies!

Corpse Cart -> 75pts
I thing this unit can always be of any aid...

Special
5 Dark Knights: Bardings-> 140pts
I'd like to use Chaos Knights models for them and they can take flanks...

TOTAL = 1000pts

Warriors of Chaos 1K

Heroes
Exalted Heroe: Sword of Might + Enchanted Shield + Favour of the Gods -> 150pts
Hard hitting guy to join Warriors...

Sorcerer: Level 2 + MoT -> 140pts
Sorcerers are a "must have" so I'll put one in the Marauders!

Core
12 Warriors: Ban./Mus. + Shields + Halleberds -> 222pts
Nice "cheap" configuration to hit well in 1K games...

20 Marauders: Ban./Mus. + Shields + Light Armour -> 132pts
The Sorcerer's house which will have the anvil role...

5 Warhounds -> 30pts
Always usefull against bow/guns armies!

5 Warhounds -> 30pts
Always usefull against bow/guns armies!

5 Marauders Horsemen: Mus. + Flails + MoS -> 91pts
Made to harass flanks of lil'block and to hunt war machines...

Special
5 Knights of Chaos -> 200pts
So beautifull and effective, I cant imagine a WoC army without them!

TOTAL= 995pts

Any C&C welcom on both these lists...

TheOneHawk
15-08-2011, 09:57
I'm not the greatest WoC player ever, but a couple things I noticed. Overall I like this list, though.

First off, you can't have both that exalted champion and that sorceror. That takes you to 290 hero points. You have 250 to work with. 25% of 1000.

In spite of the lower numbers, the warriors are a better anvil than the marauders because those ****ers do not die at this points level. Well they do, but very slowly. Cut the shields and light armour and give the marauders great weapons or halberds, get them in the flank of whatever the warriors are fighting and any unit in the game at that points level will go pop.

Warhounds are amazing. They will die, no question, but they are amazing. Flanking, war machine hunting, whatever you need. *********** amazing unit for 30 points. Especially since they have good enough stats that they will occasionally kill something too. (Had my 5 warhounds get I think 5 wounds on some bloodletters today in 2 rounds of combat. ********** made four 5+ saves though. I raged)

No standard or musician on the knights? They need those, bad. They have next to no static res and you need them to be maneuverable. Both of those are musts.

20 marauders isn't enough, they die too fast even if you try to protect them a bit. 25-30 minimum.

All I can think of right now.

Aluinn
15-08-2011, 09:58
Hi there,

Im a 40K player for 5-6 years and Im still looking WB games with a lot of interest but, because it's a lot of cash and time to spend in, Im still making army lists without palying at all...

I really like WoC and VC for their appearance so I tried two 1K lists to have some informations and advice !

Vampire Counts 1K

Heroes
Vampire: Lord of the Death + Flayed Hauberk + Tomb Blade -> 165pts
Will go with the Skeletons to have a bēg renewable wall of them!

Vampire: Summon Ghouls + Dark Acolyte + Cadaverous Cuirass -> 160pts
Will join the Ghouls and cast some nasty things!

Core
20 Skeleton Warriors: EMC -> 180pts
The main block wich will grow during all the game...

20 Ghouls -> 160pts
Ghoul's Master guard, usefull to fight against big E ennemies!

15 Ghouls -> 120pts
Usefull to fight against big E ennemies!

Corpse Cart -> 75pts
I thing this unit can always be of any aid...

Special
5 Dark Knights: Bardings-> 140pts
I'd like to use Chaos Knights models for them and they can take flanks...

TOTAL = 1000pts

I don't play WoC so I'm not really qualified to comment on that list, but on the VC list I'd say:

-35 Ghouls in a horde formation is better than two separate units most of the time, so I'd combine them, and probably try to find points for an extra 5 to make it a unit of 40. This is a truly scary block that can win fights against most any enemy unit you'll see in 1,000 points, and with Vanhel's on it will probably win against literally any single enemy unit (again, in 1k points).

-On that subject, you should not put a caster Vampire (like your second one) in a unit of Ghouls, because you want that Ghoul unit in combat, and you want the caster Vamp out of combat. His stats look impressive at first, but remember that he's still T4 with 2 Wounds, and so will die quickly to any unit directing attacks at him, even "weak" ones like State Troops or Skaven Clanrats. It's fine to take a Vamp of this sort, but either run him solo behind your units, but within 3" for the 4+ Look Out Sir! roll (I'd recommend Wristbands of Black Gold if you do this), or put him in the Skeletons and avoid combat with that unit unless you absolutely have to engage. In this case you could put your combat Vampire in the Ghouls, for the same reasons you don't want the other one in there :).

-Some people will tell you not to take Skeletons at all (they're worse than Ghouls in combat for the same points cost per model), but personally I think it's good to have a unit of them just to get another standard for Blood and Glory if nothing else, as VC tend to be very short on them if the Core consists entirely of Ghouls. 20 is fine for this level, so keep them as-is, IMO.

-The Corpse Cart really needs one of the upgrades in order to be worth having around. I recommend Balefire; it is just a more versatile effect, i.e. it affects all enemy magic, whereas Lodestone only affects one of your own spells.

-You didn't specify which Vampire is your General, but whichever one it is, he needs more defensive items. Realize that with VC losing your General means the game is pretty much over for you unless it's very close to ending anyway, because your units will, for the most part, crumble away very quickly, so always spend points on defense before taking something like Tomb Blade.

-On that topic, I'd suggest making your caster the General, since this is usually a less risky role than close combat. Bunker him in the Skeletons but keep that unit behind the Ghouls and don't charge in.

-You may wish to consider using a Wight King instead of a combat Vampire in order to save points, because with his basic equipment and a great weapon he's quite tough (higher T than the Vampire, an extra Wound, comes with armor) and actually deals only slightly less damage by virtue of swinging at Strength 6.

-I would recommend Master of the Black Art over Dark Acolyte for the caster. It provides much, much more of a boost to your casting ability than +1 magic level; there is a trade-off in that you can't take Summon Ghouls/Lord of the Dead with it, but increasing units beyond their starting size is fairly overrated and doesn't really matter if you don't have the dice to get spells through anyway. Another alternative is Forbidden Lore (Vampires), since you really want to get Vanhel's in there somewhere; it's an astonishingly good spell. The other ways to guarantee that you'll have it are to take a Necromancer, or to take the Book of Arkhan.

Whew, that turned out a little longer than I meant it to be; sorry for the wall of text :). I don't mean to suggest that there's a ton of stuff wrong with your list or anything, but there's a lot to be said about the way VC work to someone who's new to the army, because much of it isn't obvious from reading the army book.

Whichever army you choose to play, good luck and I hope you enjoy it.

TheOneHawk
15-08-2011, 10:01
WoC got the first reply by one minute. Win!

Manta
15-08-2011, 13:12
Waow!

That's a lot of advice and I'd like to thank you a lot!

Cause I still dont know if I'll go for VC or WoC, I made some changes to both lists...

Vampire Counts 1K

Heroes
Vampire: Master of Balck Arts + Flayed Hauberk -> 175pts
My general who will go with the Skeletons and cast a lot!

Wight King -> 75pts
Will join the Ghouls to give them more power!

Core
20 Skeleton Warriors: EMC -> 180pts
The main block wich will grow during all the game...

30 Ghouls : Crypt Ghast -> 248pts
The main offensive block!

5 Dire Wolves -> 40pts
Maybe usefull?

5 Dire Wolves -> 40pts
Maybe usefull?

Corpse Cart: Balefire -> 100pts
thing this unit can always be of any aid...

Special
5 Dark Knights: Bardings-> 140pts
I'd like to use Chaos Knights models for them and they can take flanks...

TOTAL = 998pts

Warriors of Chaos 1K

Heroes
Sorcerer: Level 2 + MoT -> 140pts
Sorcerers are a "must have" so I'll put one in the Marauders!

Sorcerer: MoT -> 105pts
Sorcerers are a "must have" so I'll put one in the Warriors!

Core
15 Warriors: Ban./Mus. + Shields + Halleberds -> 273pts
Nice "cheap" configuration to hit well in 1K games...

25 Marauders: Ban./Mus. + Great Weapons -> 137pts
More impact in this configuration!

5 Warhounds -> 30pts
Always usefull against bow/guns armies!

5 Marauders Horsemen: Mus. + Flails + MoS -> 91pts
Made to harass flanks of lil'block and to hunt war machines...

Special
5 Knights of Chaos: Banner -> 220pts
So beautifull and effective, I cant imagine a WoC army without them!

TOTAL = 996pts

Much better this way isnt it?

Eta
15-08-2011, 15:17
On the WoC list: don't take two characters at that point level, they are too expensive.

If you want to have an "allround" hero that is fighty and yet able to cast, I recommend the following build: Exalted Hero with shield, MoT, Book of Secrets, Spell Familiar, Dragon Helm. That'll effectively give you a level 2 sorcerer that knows two spells from the lore of Shadow / Fire / Death, packs 4 S5 attacks and a 2+/5++ save in close combat - all for 175 points.

This will give you 70 points to play around. I'd drop the standard bearer from the knights, they don't need a banner. They either attack smaller / weak units that they can break on the charge or they support infantry units that have a standard so theirs is wasted. Instead, add a musician and an additional knight. That'll leave you with 40 points. I'd change the configuration of your marauders to the following: 29 marauders with shields, standard, musician and MoT. Use them as your roadblock (five wide formation) to pin units in place for your warriors / knights to smash the flanks. Just be sure to guard the marauders' flanks as they only get their nice 5+ ward save fighting to the front. You can put the general inside this unit to get some more CC punch. The warriors do not really need the Exalted Hero in their ranks, they hit hard enough.

Tomalock
15-08-2011, 17:51
Are you limiting yourself to mostly what is in the VC Battalion? If so then I won't fault your choices too much. If not then I think you might want to change a couple things around.

First off, MotBA is a wonderful ability. I always have it on my caster and it balances some of the more extreme magic defenses (*glares angrily at Empire and Dwarves*) you will face. With that said, putting it on a level one vampire who will only know 2 spells and has no ability to raise units beyond their starting level is wasteful at this point level. Drop that and take Forbidden Lore (Vampires) and Summon Ghouls. Having access to all of the spells and being able to raise your ghoul units beyond starting is far more useful than having 2 extra power dice for your purposes. Loremaster, even on a level one, is going to make you much more versatile until you can get to point levels that allow a Vampire Lord.

For the Wight King, and this will make more sense with my suggestions in the core section, I recommend making him a BSB and giving him the Royal Standard of Strigos, or if you really want to be extreme, The Drakenhof Banner (at that point you have made your ghouls a semi deathstar and I would recommend putting Helm of Commandment on your Vampire and watch your opponents grumble about cheese). That gives you a banner for break point, although to be fair you only need to not lose your general and you will never break.

For core I would suggest dropping all the extras and put them into several ghoul units. With a vampire with summon ghouls you can just raise multiple units to fighting strength before you hit combat.

Finally, Black Knights are ok. I use them in my tourny builds to support Blood Knights sometimes, but I find that they are not great at anything and only good at some things. At this point level, it is nice to have the 2+ armor saves and the higher strength. However I think you would be better served with a Vargulf in all honesty. A single Vargulf can babysit units of ghouls away from your general and is a very effective roadblack on a flank. At 1k points there are simply not a lot of units that will hold up to one over several turns.

So with all of those suggestions, here is a list I think could work well for you:

Heroes

Vampire w/ General, Forbidden Lore (Vampires), Summon Ghouls, Flayed Hauberk, random 10 point item to taste 185pts

Wight King w/ BSB, Royal Banner of Strigos 135pts

Core

Ghouls x20 w/ Ghast 168pts

Ghouls x20 w/ Ghast 168pts

Ghouls x20 w/ Ghast 168pts

Rares

Vargulf 175pts

Total: 999pts

Basically you would want to make one of the ghoul units your bunker and keep your general in it a little back from the main line, although with the above build he could get into combat with most units without much worries. Your main focus will be to raise the 2 combat ghoul units up to around 30 in the first turn or so. A good Summon Undead Horde casting followed by an Invocation or two will do that in a phase, allowing you to use the more offensive spells (creating spirit hosts with Wind of Undeath 1k will make a lot of armies cry as they will have minimal tools to deal with Ethereal units). Throw your BSB in one of the combat ghouls units and watch them beat up on the enemy.

Alternatively, if you don't mind taking some risks (this is the route I would probably go personally), you could drop the armor and 10 point item and take the Helm of Commandment. Its not *as* good on a hero vampire, but WS6 Ghouls are still way above WS3 ghouls haha. At that point you want to keep your General out of combat through whatever means necessary. Remember, since you know all of the spells you can throw up new zombie units all over the place to protect flanks as the game progresses.


In the end, my suggested list is a bit more of a *hard* list I think, so if you are looking to just have fun with friends this might be a little bit over the top. However if you are using this point level as an entry point to future high level armies, this gives you tools you will use in high level games. There isn't a single "bad" model in the list and you will likely make the transition to 2k+ fairly easily with this framework. I hope the suggestions help. Happy gaming whatever army you go with!

Soul R3aper
15-08-2011, 18:07
For the warriors of chaos list I would personally recommend taking a lvl 2 sorcerer with mark of tzeentch. I would set him up as follows: sorcerer, lvl 2, mark o Tzeentch, disc of Tzeentch, power familiar and golden eye of tzeentch. all that for 210 points allows a very mobile sorcerer with a 3+ as and a 3+ ws, who isnt afraid to get into combat (although try to prevent that at all costs! but rear charging or lank charging a weakened enemy is usually ok) and can cast spells easily due to LOS. If you wanted or had extra points you could then give this sorcerer a charmed shield for a 2+ as and even a demonic gift like coinjoined homonuclus. (or however you spell it)

I would have to agree with the warhounds as they are always a good unit to include in any woc army

As for the marauders I agree with ETA, they need more numbers! 30-40 is a good range for a 1000 pts game in my opinion. If you dont want to run them in a unit with MoT you could give them MoK, with Great Weapons for the extra hitting power. For this unit I would recommend around 35-40 marauders or this. That way you can run them in horde formation for the extra attacks.

As for the warriors I always run them in multiples of 6. I do this because i always run mine 6 wide with usually 3 ranks. So my suggestion would be to either drop the unit down to 12 or more likely push them up to 18 and give them MoK.

Just my 2 cents on everything =) ultimately the decision is all yours! have fun and good luck deciding on which army to play!

Manta
16-08-2011, 12:20
Hello there!

After a look at all your advice, it's clear to see that there is a lot of playing options for both these armies and that's the way I like it (Hahein Hahein)!

Here is the 2 new versions (and yes, I'd like to go from the Batallion)...

VAMPIRE COUNTS

Heroes
Vampire: Master of the Black Arts + Flayed Hauberk -> 175pts

Wight King -> 75pts

Core
20 Skeleton Warriors: EMC -> 180pts

30 Ghouls: Crypt Ghast -> 248pts

5 Dire Wolves -> 40pts

5 Dire Wolves -> 40pts

Corpse Cart: Balefire -> 100pts

Special
5 Dark Knights: Bardings -> 140pts

TOTAL= 998pts

WARRIORS OF CHAOS

Heroes
Sorcerer: Level 2 + Disc of Tzeentch + Golden Eye + Power Familiar + MoT -> 210pts

Core
12 Warriors: EM + Shields + Hallberds -> 222pts

30 Marauders: EM + Shields + Light Armor + MoS -> 202pts

5 Warhounds -> 30pts

5 Warhounds -> 30pts

5 Marauders Horsemen: M + Flails + MoS -> 91pts

Special
5 Chevaliers du Chaos: M -> 210pts

TOTAL= 995pts

Just for you to know, I havent planned to play in a competitive environement but I dont want to lose every game...

So, is it enough this way?

Athariel
17-08-2011, 10:27
If your using your Vampire general as primarily as caster I find the Earthing Rod item to be essential.

If you miscast and roll bad on the table that will be your general gone, along with most of that unit and the game is pretty much over for you.

The Earthing Rod has saved my Vampire General more than once.