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kissmykiester
16-08-2011, 03:16
Hello,

I'm new to Warhammer and recently bought a friend's high elves army which is led by 3 mage miniatures. I've yet to pick up the army and the high elf army book but I looking forward to it.

Assuming one Archmage and two level 2 mages - what magical or non magical army would you equip them with and why?

winterking07
16-08-2011, 05:43
One of the level 2s should be given the Annulian Crystal (steals 1 of opponent's power dice, turns it into a dispel die for you).

The other one you almost certainly don't need--some people would say you don't need either low-level mage if you're bringing an archmage--and might be better replaced with a Battle Standard Bearer. (That said, I sometimes take an archmage and two mages at ~2000 points, for flexibility). If you take the second one, I would recommend also taking either a Dispel Scroll or the Seerstaff (instead of randomly determining spells, you choose them when writing the list). If you take the Seerstaff, you'll want to be careful choosing lores with both that mage and the Archmage: different combinations of lores/spells are more or less effective.

For the Archmage, one of the most powerful items in the HE army book, and possibly in the game, is the Book of Hoeth. It uses up your archmage's magic items allowance, but it allows you to irresistably cast spells with any roll of a double (not just double 6s), as long as you at least equal the casting level. 1 Irresistable Purple Sun, Dwellers, Mindrazor, or other big spell per turn can be a game-changer. That said, lots of people dislike the Book, think it is broken/overpowered.

Another popular combination is the untouchable archmage: Folariath's Robe and the Talisman of Saphery. Folariath's Robe means that your archmage can only be damaged (in melee) by magical attacks; Talisman of Saphery turns all magic weapons in base contact into non-magic weapons (which, of course, can't hurt your archmage). And you have enough points left over for either the Jewel of the Dusk (+1 power die) or the Silver Wand (+1 spell known). I prefer the Jewel of the Dusk, but if your archmage is using Life magic, you'll probably want the Silver Wand instead.

Pyriel
16-08-2011, 05:51
LvL 4 archmage with Book of Hoeth and Life lore(for the important flesh to stone/regrowth to be cast on the unit most likely going into the fray)

LvL 2 mage with Annulian Crystal and High magic (to mess up enemy casting)

LvL 2 mage with Sigil of Assurian and Fire Magic (the sigil of assurian can further mess up enemy casting and the fire magic part can be used as warmachine-meta to hurt enemy warmachine crews).

enyoss
16-08-2011, 07:57
Avoiding the Book of Hoeth (which raises some eyebrows regarding balance, and which is often banned from tournaments), I find the following works quite well:

Archmage, Level 4: Silver Wand (if taking Life Magic, thanks to Throne of Vines negating miscasts) or Staff of Solidity (if taking any other lore), Folariath's Robe and/or Talisman of 4+/5+ Ward Save. Lore: LIFE/METAL/SHADOW. The augment spells on all three are pretty good. Metal can be a problem against lightly armoured enemies e.g. Daemons, but its signature spell is excellent at getting rid of big gribblies you might otherwise struggle with e.g. Hydras and Steam Tanks.

Mage, Level 2: Annulian Crystal, Ironcurse Icon (as he usually goes in my warmachine magnet spearmen). Lore: HIGH. The low casting values in the High Magic lore, coupled with the superb base spell Shield of Saphery, make this a great choice for your support caster.

I've never seen the need for a third caster. I usually rely on the Banner of Sorcery to give me enough power dice as it is.

Hope that helps! :)

Jack of Blades
16-08-2011, 21:29
Assuming you take a level 4 archmage and that each spell takes an average of a mere 2 dice to cast, you won't have enough dice to cast every spell with on an average Winds result of 7 dice. This means that even a backup caster is excessive unless you expect or plan for some disaster to befall your level 4. With a mind-boggling three mages in a single army you'll have more magic levels than power dice on average. I would at most take a backup caster and then only if I had a plan for him - say there's still an arcane item I could really put to good use and I also want something to help kill dangerous combat characters so to complement my level 4 Life Archmage I take a level 2 Death Mage.

enyoss' setup looks recommendable.

Oberon
17-08-2011, 07:05
Casting every spell you know shouldn't be the objective, casting every spell that matters should. Often, only one or two spells matter, and the rest are just the slann showing off.

Pulstar
17-08-2011, 11:20
Silver wand is cheap and gives you +1 spell. It's always useful.

Jewel of Dusk gives +1 power dice and is also very cheap.

Staff of Solidity ignores your first mistcast. Think cheap fire mage throwing big fireballs.

SeerStaff lets you pick your spells.

The Crystal has been covered above.

Every mage you take should have one of these above items. They are all int he 10-40 range and are great values.

As far as other gear, the only other thing I would suggest is the Folariath's Robe and the Talisman of Saphery combo for you AM if he is going into a combat unit.

The other item that needs to be in your list is the banner of Sorcery. +d3 power dice and can fit on any of the elite infantry. This will really help if you are playing more then one mage.

On your AM (and every HE army should take an AM) Lore of Life and Shadow seem to work best. I'd rate Shadow a bit higher because it helps our core troops out better, but a Life mage regrowing/buffing Swordmasters, Dragon Princes and White Lions is just unfair on some level.

For you backup caster the key is to pick a Lore that has a great signature spell, since that is the only one you know you are going to get.

Shadow - If your AM is a life mage, Shadow here works well. Miasma is cheap to cast, has great range, and is just a pain to the unit you hex. All the other shadow spells are good to.
High - 5+ ward on a unit for 5+ casting is good. You also get drain magic for free which isn't bad. Very defensive.
Fire - Since fire ball can be boosted to 3d6 str 4 wounds is a great spell. Teamed with a Staff of Solidity can be a game changer. Also Firesword and Fire Cage are also very good spells.
Beast - Wildform gives you +1 S, +1T. Great for buffing Spearmen and Phoenix Guard.

Oberon
17-08-2011, 11:29
Metal - the signature is the bane of treemen, steam tanks and hydras everywhere, also knights and WoC infantry

If your archmage doesn't carry staff of solidity, which IMO he should as he's the one casting big spells, sidekick wizard should consider it. It makes casting these 18-20+ casting value signatures that much safer. Of course, if you're going the other route and picking a lore with an easy spell, the crystal is a much better choice. I have found the untouchable archmage (shadows) to work really nicely, casting hexes until the time when mindrazor/pit of shades just has to get through, staff of solidity acts as a great insurance there.

kissmykiester
17-08-2011, 16:32
Wow...I'm so grateful for ALL your advise and generosity in sharing all this...I'm printing this thread. You guys are AWESOME. Thank you so very much. You guys just made this newbie's warhammer experience so much more enjoyable!

Lester
17-08-2011, 18:56
Very useful advice here. Nice since I started HE not long ago. :)

:-Collinisimo-:
17-08-2011, 23:49
I setup I particularly like is the following:

Level 4 (Death) - Talisman of Saphery, Folariaths Robe, Dispel Scroll
Level 2 (Shadow) - Jewel of the Dusk
Level 2 (Metal) - Annulian Crystal
Throw in a Banner of Sorcery somewhere else.

This gives you:
- Shadow and Metal signature spells (both very powerful)
- Chances at getting Final Transmutation, Pit of Shades, and Mindrazor
- The Death Lore (great for character sniping, and it has the always fun Purple Sun)
- 2d6 + d3 + 1 dower dice + 3 channels (thats an average of 10 dice!!)
- -1 power die and +1 dispel die on your opponents turn.
- Near Unkillable General
- Dispel Scroll, often overlooked.

Avatar of the Eldar
18-08-2011, 02:33
I'll just kick in here to reinforce points above.

2 casters (lvl 4 and lvl 2) with Banner of Sorcery is enough. Save those additional points for a BSB.

I'm using the "Can't Touch This" combo (Forlaith and Saphery) plus Silver Wand on my Archie, usually Lore of Life, but I've been experimenting with Lore of Death. This is because he often ends up in one of my combat units. He's great with challenges. Previously I had Loremaster's Cloak instead of Talisman of Saphery. The idea was to protect her from sniping spells. Wasn't an issue.

Level 2 gets Annulian Crystal or Sigil of Asuryan. High or Shadows

PS - My "mark of the beast" post! 666. Numerology rubbish.

enyoss
18-08-2011, 02:47
A lot of peeps seem to like the Talisman of Saphery and Folariath's Robe combo. Is it really that effective though, given the rarity of magic weapons versus straight magic attacks? Grave Guard and Daemons, for example, will have no problem wounding him. I prefer the 5+ ward save item (either from the High Elf book, or the Rulebook), as it's cheaper and protects against sniping spells, miscasts, and straight magic attacks, all of which seem more common than heroes with magic weapons.

Just thought it was worth pointing out :).

Akkristor
18-08-2011, 06:55
In my last game, 2k points vs. Skaven, i paired one of my two mages with the Silver Wand (3 spells on a lvl 2 mage) and used the rest of the points to buy him the Reaver Bow. He was placed in a unit of Archers for cover, and acted mostly as the unit captain. Unfortunately, the only really useful spell he ended up rolling was Speed of Light (the other two were the Net and Banishment, and neither had much success), but having a strong ranged attack helped a good deal.

My other favorites are the Seerstaff and the Trickster's Pendant. Being able to pick spells is useful when you only have one or two, and messing with your opponent's miscast is both fun and favorable.

Pyriel
18-08-2011, 07:03
...actualy, Lore of Light isnt realy useful for High Elves. most of its spells boost WS and I, and since Elves Always Strike First anyway, its not that important.

the lores with the biggest quantity of useful spells(hence good for a mere lvl 2) are Life, Fire, and High.

Life can grant regen(signature) and has 3 other powerful spells-Flesh To Stone, Regrowth, and Dwellers Below.

Fire has a solid Fireball as signature and also has Flaming Sword of Rhuin(imagine a Sea Guard horde with this :P and yes, their arrows are boosted too!) and Flame Cage.

finaly, High Magic is excellent, granting Drain Magic for free, and then having a great swappable Shield of Saphery, and chances for Flames of the Phoenix, Vaul's Unmaking, Courage of Aenarion and even Fury of Khaine isnt that bad.

all said Lores also have low casting values.
metal and shadow are also good choices, but mostly for a LvL 4.

Akkristor
18-08-2011, 07:19
Well, I myself only recently got into playing tabletop warhammer, with a gaming group of friends, so I had a lvl2 with the Seerstaff and Lore of Life (Throne and Regrowth), and the other i was trying to decide between Metal, Fire, Light, and Shadow. I rolled a d4, and got Light. Speed of Light ended up being really helpful for me, dropped it onto a block of Spearmen, my main strategy ended up being trying to hit a unit in CC with both Regrowth and Speed.

Sorry bout the off-topicness!

Pyriel
18-08-2011, 07:22
no problem... but whats the difference?
if spearman without speed of light is 4+ reroll strikes first.
spearman with speed of light is 3+ reroll strikes first.
?????
see? "high elves=super-init" ANYWAY, lore of light or not. super-WS too, since they most likely get rerolls too.
it is much better to say "i base myself in Speed of Assurian, and if it gets errata'd i'm screwed."

wouldnt you be better off using ANY other augment spell, since they always strike first with rerolls anyway? to boost their low strength/toughness, maybe?

also, if Life/seerstaff, always get Flesh to Stone. using Flesh to Stone on HE is so powerful it should be considered borderline cheating :D

Akkristor
18-08-2011, 07:31
no problem... but whats the difference?
if spearman without speed of light is 4+ reroll strikes first.
spearman with speed is 3+ reroll strikes first.
?????
wouldnt you be better off using ANY other augment spell? to boost their low strength/toughness, maybe?

also, if Life/seerstaff, always get Flesh to Stone. using Flesh to Stone on HE is so powerful it should be considered borderline cheating :D

Mostly it help that my buddy wasn't too willing to charge into a group of WS10, but you do make a good point, the Lore of Metal's +1 would be just as good, and getting me the Magical and Armor piercing, the latter which would probably be best for the Str3 spearmen, so not just as good, better.

I've kinda ended up addicted to Throne of Vines. I'm still overly nervous about miscasts blowing up my mages (the biggest thing that makes Teclis powerful in my mind is that he ignores his first miscast each turn), my archers, and all that bad boop.

So yeah, i'm still learning what works well and what doesn't, this was one of my first actual full on fights with my Elves (had the IoB battle, one other, and a VC proxied game to try to learn various mechanics), and just figuring it all out magic-wise. Tho, i did like the Bow-mage. Ended up using my archers to try to force a few panic tests here and there.

Oberon
18-08-2011, 08:25
A lot of peeps seem to like the Talisman of Saphery and Folariath's Robe combo. Is it really that effective though, given the rarity of magic weapons versus straight magic attacks? Grave Guard and Daemons, for example, will have no problem wounding him. I prefer the 5+ ward save item (either from the High Elf book, or the Rulebook), as it's cheaper and protects against sniping spells, miscasts, and straight magic attacks, all of which seem more common than heroes with magic weapons.

Just thought it was worth pointing out :).

Sniping spells are an issue, yes. Against daemons you'll just have to hide in a makeshift bunker somewhere or hope to survive long enough in melee, same with grave guard. Last time I faced a GG horde, I put my archmage in the white lion horde, charged them and issued a challenge, he took it with the WK BSB, didn't roll good enough to make 3 wounds or KB, WL killed the whole horde (last rank crumbled).

VS sniping, you'll just have to dispel them, against innate magical attacks you'll have to hide more than usual. But, talisman of saphery is there to catch the opponent unawares, I've had some great success challenging the enemy and catching his hero/lord in a pillow fight :D

Pyriel
18-08-2011, 09:49
@akkristor:

yes, of course Throne of Vines is great. hence, throne of vines+ flesh to stone. on swordmasters. thought a WS6 str 5 2 attacks unit is scary? imagine how scary they are with toughness 7... yeah thats so fair :P

which brings me to the point:

the guy that first introduced me to HE uses the following:
Teclis(life) and 30+ swordmasters with banner of sorcery and amulet of light.

he uses irresistible-force throne of vines first and irresistible-force flesh to stone after.
if you DO manage to kill some toughness-7 swordmasters, he then casts regrowth...
...why do i feel like this is too WAAC for my tastes? i mean, i like to win, but i like having fun more, and a less WAAC list would make for a more "actualy competitive" and fun game...

Lester
18-08-2011, 11:39
One interesting thing is trying to do Light Mage Spam with Banishment as your Killy spell.
Archmage Lv 4 (ignore first miscast item)
Mage Lv 2 (with the picking spell item, pick Banishment so you can try to double dip with the archmage)
Prince/Noble with the Gem that makes him a lvl 1 (Noble can double as BSB) OR a second Mage lvl 1 (Dispell Scroll or other useful item(s))

Avatar of the Eldar
18-08-2011, 15:05
@akkristor:
...why do i feel like this is too WAAC for my tastes? i mean, i like to win, but i like having fun more, and a less WAAC list would make for a more "actualy competitive" and fun game...

It feels that way because it's *******. Teclis and the Book are no-go's in my circle (group and indy tourney circuit).