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Dourin
16-08-2011, 10:31
It might be a straightforward question and answer, but I've been wondering: seeing as space marine battlebarges and the like are not quite your standard Imperial war ship, it stands to reason that they might be constructed at different dockyards then normal war ships. Given variant designs etc, how do space marines replenish or expand their fleets?

Simply commision one from the nearest space yard (with no guarantee that they'll have the technology or capability to even build it), have their own recruiting worlds/worlds they preside over in the case of the Ultramarines construct them, some other way? Are there specific agreements between the chapters, the Mechanicum and the dockyards in question...?

cheers,

Dourin

shadowhawk2008
16-08-2011, 11:10
Not just any dock yard but Mechanicus forge-worlds. They are the ones who can produce the warships in the SM fleets. Designs and patterns vary from segmentum to segmentum undoubtedly.

Several warhips in a SM fleet have been taken from heretics and from Chaos forces. The Space Wolves took a Chaos vessel as a prize that was once an Imperial Navy cruiser. The Executioners' capital ship Night Hag was once the cruiser of a Rogue Trader. The Minotaurs took several Lamenter warships as salvage and prizes of war during the Badab War.

Fox Of 9
16-08-2011, 11:14
a few have been salvaged from space hulks aswell. :D


David.

Chaos Undecided
16-08-2011, 11:18
Dont know if its just a trap the writers all seem to fall into but seemingly every Battlebarge that turns up in a book seems to be described as a ancient chapter relic of the heresy era which makes me wonder if theres any yards capable of producing new ones anymore either that or they are all constructed in the Sol system and therefore theres a long waiting list to get replacement capital ships to the chapters.

Fox Of 9
16-08-2011, 11:45
well the legion fleets were huge. so im guessing quite a few are still around and kicking. some others have been lost and then reclaimed...

Xisor
16-08-2011, 12:42
ChaosUndecided: That's not entirely correct, but you have identified a fair trope. Much like people are usually 'tall for an elf' or 'large even for a space marine', it's very easy to have ships which are conspicuously old! Quite a trope.

That said, the game Battlefleet Gothic goes to some length to highlight that many of the ships of Traitor Fleets are notably newer ships. There's even some lines about how it may be that newer ship designs unfortunately lend themselves to weaknesses with regard to the warp and Geller Fields, whereas old ones don't, and thus remain more loyal.

If you can imagine, I think an absolutely terrific set of stories could stem from the simple examination of a new chapter: Marines trained by another chapter using vat-grown geneseed and being shipped off with purely new armour and new ships with only a tiny handful of 'relics' amongst them (a squad's worth of terminator armour drawn from some of their immediate predecessor chapter, not even first- or second-founding relics!).

Seeing them being crewed and supplied by 'Inquisitorial and Machine Cult serfs', rather than devotees of another chapter. Marines being cultivated top-grade from Schola Progenium orphans and the pick of the bunch from blackships...

There's a whole wealth of story in there. It'd make quite a spectacular story, I wish someone'd write it. Start at the beginning with the 'need'/desire to create a chapter as seen by High Lords/Inquisitors and follow it through by a long series of vignettes taken from many characters over the course of two or three centuries.

Anyway: new ships. That'd be a cool story!

Fox Of 9
16-08-2011, 12:45
ChaosUndecided: That's not entirely correct, but you have identified a fair trope. Much like people are usually 'tall for an elf' or 'large even for a space marine', it's very easy to have ships which are conspicuously old! Quite a trope.

That said, the game Battlefleet Gothic goes to some length to highlight that many of the ships of Traitor Fleets are notably newer ships. There's even some lines about how it may be that newer ship designs unfortunately lend themselves to weaknesses with regard to the warp and Geller Fields, whereas old ones don't, and thus remain more loyal.

If you can imagine, I think an absolutely terrific set of stories could stem from the simple examination of a new chapter: Marines trained by another chapter using vat-grown geneseed and being shipped off with purely new armour and new ships with only a tiny handful of 'relics' amongst them (a squad's worth of terminator armour drawn from some of their immediate predecessor chapter, not even first- or second-founding relics!).

Seeing them being crewed and supplied by 'Inquisitorial and Machine Cult serfs', rather than devotees of another chapter. Marines being cultivated top-grade from Schola Progenium orphans and the pick of the bunch from blackships...

There's a whole wealth of story in there. It'd make quite a spectacular story, I wish someone'd write it. Start at the beginning with the 'need'/desire to create a chapter as seen by High Lords/Inquisitors and follow it through by a long series of vignettes taken from many characters over the course of two or three centuries.

Anyway: new ships. That'd be a cool story!

yes very cool indeed. :D

Lord Commissar Aquila
16-08-2011, 13:58
IIRC Some ships are produced by the chapter forges, correct?

Fox Of 9
16-08-2011, 14:10
IIRC Some ships are produced by the chapter forges, correct?

i belive so... IIRC one of the blood angels ships was constructed like this..

Sai-Lauren
16-08-2011, 14:30
I've always assumed that each Chapter has their own shipyards for maintenance and repairs, so it's not too difficult for them to have an extra bay or two where they can have a new vessel constructed.

With the limit on production being both the structure of the Codex:Astartes (so once they're at strength, all they're going to do is replace losses), and the time that the Techmarines can devote to overseeing it's construction, compared to all the other work they need to do - most of their time will be spent looking after the existing vessels, whilst most of the actual work will be done by chapter serfs.

And don't forget that even an escort vessel would be years in construction - a battle barge could be a decade or two, with many years for a shakedown cruise after launch.

MagosHereticus
16-08-2011, 15:01
ChaosUndecided: That's not entirely correct, but you have identified a fair trope. Much like people are usually 'tall for an elf' or 'large even for a space marine', it's very easy to have ships which are conspicuously old! Quite a trope.


dont forget "a giant of a man"!



IIRC Some ships are produced by the chapter forges, correct?

generally only sub-capital ships are producible outside of mechanicus shipyards, although some marine chapters have mechanicus level manufacturing capabilities (the only exception seems to be lunar class cruisers because they are substantially easier to make)

a chapter should be able to make and maintain innumerable numbers of escorts (or rapid strike vessels) though

KingDeath
16-08-2011, 21:53
Well, even escorts are huge and technologicaly advanced warships so i don't think that all chapters can produce them in large numbers.
Especialy those chapters whose homeworld is a primitive feudal or deathworld might simply lack enough skilled workers and crew to massproduce them.

insomniac
16-08-2011, 22:03
Also worth noting that there aren't necessarily strictly defined patterns for a 'battle barge' or 'strike cruiser.' Both are descriptions of a function, with plenty of variance in appearance.

Clockwork-Knight
16-08-2011, 22:10
Space Marine-space craft however is more automated and/or sophisticated in comparison to a navy ship of similar tonnage and role, probably because the Space Marines just don't have enough auxiliary serf personal to man ship guns with pure muscle power as the imperial navy can afford to do it.

So one thing's for sure, they need really good suppliers to maintain their ships.

sabreu
17-08-2011, 02:45
Where do Space Marines get their Fleets from?

Shrike!

Xisor
17-08-2011, 03:08
I was meaning to note this earlier, but it slipped my mind:

Where do Space Marines get their fleets from?
Up their sleevies.

Sai-Lauren
17-08-2011, 10:40
dont forget "a giant of a man"!

Could be worse, he could be a giant of a dwarf. :D



generally only sub-capital ships are producible outside of mechanicus shipyards, although some marine chapters have mechanicus level manufacturing capabilities (the only exception seems to be lunar class cruisers because they are substantially easier to make)

a chapter should be able to make and maintain innumerable numbers of escorts (or rapid strike vessels) though

There would be a limit on what they can crew and maintain - especially if we assume a Techmarine has to be on board each vessel to look after it. And of course there's smaller vessels which the household would need to ferry supplies around from the chapters off world holdings and those they effectively trade with (the AM for example), which would have to be maintained in the same facilities.

But yes, the oldest chapters would have the best facilities - the UM would certainly be able to produce Battle Barges, and may even do so for their successors, whilst a newly formed chapter might have to build their orbital facilities as part of the fortess-monastaries construction.

The main restriction might be the Codex though - if it says a Chapter should only have x Battle Barges, y Strike Cruisers and z Escorts, that's what most chapters will max out at.



Especialy those chapters whose homeworld is a primitive feudal or deathworld might simply lack enough skilled workers and crew to massproduce them.

If they have the mental capability to potentially become Marines, the population is smart enough to be taught how to weld etc.

In fact, in the BFG rulebook, there's mention of a cruiser being built around just such a world, and I seriously doubt they'd have brought in workers when there's a local population available.



I was meaning to note this earlier, but it slipped my mind:

Where do Space Marines get their fleets from?
Up their sleevies.

I thought that was where they keep their armies. :)

MagosHereticus
17-08-2011, 14:04
Could be worse, he could be a giant of a dwarf. :D


errgh


There would be a limit on what they can crew and maintain - especially if we assume a Techmarine has to be on board each vessel to look after it. And of course there's smaller vessels which the household would need to ferry supplies around from the chapters off world holdings and those they effectively trade with (the AM for example), which would have to be maintained in the same facilities.

i never mentioned operation, i meant maintain as in keep in operational condition with maintenance, meaning a chapter could have a mothball reserve of escorts if it wished to keep pumping out ships and experienced low attrition





If they have the mental capability to potentially become Marines, the population is smart enough to be taught how to weld etc.

In fact, in the BFG rulebook, there's mention of a cruiser being built around just such a world, and I seriously doubt they'd have brought in workers when there's a local population available.

if serfs and servitors can built rhinos, they can build a starship, just need more of them... and space marines can easily make pacts or use contacts to obtain raw materials from whatever backwater world fall within their domain

however... what do crusading chapters do?

Fox Of 9
17-08-2011, 14:05
Forgeships???

Xisor
17-08-2011, 14:42
I think this goes to highlight that the Adeptus Astartes cannot, surely, be as independent from Mars as we would like to believe they are. There must be 'on loan' legions of tech-priests involved in the construction of a starship.

You think Marines will have the canny know-how to...build a Gellar Field generator? Build the Warp-Engine? Construct Plasma Generators?

The Mechanicus are jealously, err, jealous of other folks having access to their information. The state of cooperation between Mechanicus and Astartes probably determines what the Chapter is capable of.

Good/close relation with Mechanicus: Chapter has its own shipyards with hundreds/thousands of ship-concerned tech-priests living in harmony.

Bad/irritable relation with Mechanicus: Chapter has to buy/threaten or rely on others (Adeptus Terra, ancient pacts, Inquisitors) to ensure that the Mechanicus keep up their side of the bargains.

With, say, the Black Templars, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists, it would not at all surprise me to learn that they're very closely involved with a certain faction/group of the Mechanicus, but have done so to such an extent that they find it difficult to interact with anyone else because of it.

E.g. the Black Templars crusades might already have a few very well tended, well supported Forge-Ships capable of ship-yard things, which are being fed by Explorator-like 'resource fleets' which break off from the Crusades. Unfortunately, having such a massive, dedicated portion of the Mechanicus 'on hand' might make them a bit troublesome when it comes to visiting other Mechanicus.

"I'm sorry, Grand Marshall Dave, but I can't have you talking to that strumpet from Gryphonne IV." - Argument winning words of Magos Hal.

MagosHereticus
17-08-2011, 17:08
I think this goes to highlight that the Adeptus Astartes cannot, surely, be as independent from Mars as we would like to believe they are. There must be 'on loan' legions of tech-priests involved in the construction of a starship.

You think Marines will have the canny know-how to...build a Gellar Field generator? Build the Warp-Engine? Construct Plasma Generators?

you know that in modern day assembly we don't build every component from scratch on site right? im sure the components can be sourced from various different manufactoriums and shipped to the chapter care of the RM

Lord Commissar Aquila
17-08-2011, 17:17
I think this goes to highlight that the Adeptus Astartes cannot, surely, be as independent from Mars as we would like to believe they are. There must be 'on loan' legions of tech-priests involved in the construction of a starship.

You think Marines will have the canny know-how to...build a Gellar Field generator? Build the Warp-Engine? Construct Plasma Generators?

The Mechanicus are jealously, err, jealous of other folks having access to their information. The state of cooperation between Mechanicus and Astartes probably determines what the Chapter is capable of.

Good/close relation with Mechanicus: Chapter has its own shipyards with hundreds/thousands of ship-concerned tech-priests living in harmony.

Bad/irritable relation with Mechanicus: Chapter has to buy/threaten or rely on others (Adeptus Terra, ancient pacts, Inquisitors) to ensure that the Mechanicus keep up their side of the bargains.

With, say, the Black Templars, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists, it would not at all surprise me to learn that they're very closely involved with a certain faction/group of the Mechanicus, but have done so to such an extent that they find it difficult to interact with anyone else because of it.

E.g. the Black Templars crusades might already have a few very well tended, well supported Forge-Ships capable of ship-yard things, which are being fed by Explorator-like 'resource fleets' which break off from the Crusades. Unfortunately, having such a massive, dedicated portion of the Mechanicus 'on hand' might make them a bit troublesome when it comes to visiting other Mechanicus.

"I'm sorry, Grand Marshall Dave, but I can't have you talking to that strumpet from Gryphonne IV." - Argument winning words of Magos Hal.

Sounds good; however, I'd think that some chapters would use their own Techmarines(Mentor Legion; Praetors of Orpheus, for example) rather than liasing with the AdMech. Also, as Magos said, the components for a starship could be shiped to the Astartes chapter itself and then assembled there.

Xisor
17-08-2011, 18:32
LCA: True, but I'm inclined to think that those who're closer to the Adeptus Mechanicus (the Praetors, Mentor legion etc) would simply go down the route of not wasting their time building big ships. The Mechanicus can and do that very well already.

Having said that, the idea of, say, the Ultramarines still having Assembly Yards (rather than proper, all-in-one shipyards [would anyone, I suppose?]) isn't unthinkable in the slightest.

Hmm. Actually, on second thoughts, I'm mow a big fan of Techmarine-dominated shipyards being chiefly "putting the magic bricks together" yards rather than "yep, we build our own gubbins". And, more to the point, I suppose I do agree that the likes of the Mentors, the Praetors and so forth might well have such 'decent' shipyards. Except they're not decent at all, they're not really building the ships themselves, they're just trusted to be able to do it (and thus save the Mechanicus time & money).

Easier for the Mechanicus to build components and ship out for assembly, than for the chapter to have to rely on distinct forge worlds for each ship.

(And for politically minded Chapters, this means they can forge links from many more forgeworlds: #components>#ships. So, say, the Iron Hands, the Praetors of Orpheus and the Mentor Legion can all draw on favours from the Mechanicus from dozens/hundreds of associated forgeworlds and such, whereas Chapters who 'get their ships already assembled' only have direct 'trade'/favour relations with whoever supplies the ship and is much more invested in that one organisation.)

As you can see (and I am only just seeing), there's a lot of nuance available to these sorts of processes. I like it!

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-08-2011, 19:04
I think this goes to highlight that the Adeptus Astartes cannot, surely, be as independent from Mars as we would like to believe they are. There must be 'on loan' legions of tech-priests involved in the construction of a starship.

Well, not a lot about the organisation og practice of the Adeptus Astartes makes much sense anyway the other option surely is that there support structure is a lot more developed than we usually imagine. To be able to keep up with the use of all sorts of equipment, munitions and just general maintanance during active operations it almost have to include a large support staff with any active deployment of marines. It's just not very interesting to write/hear about the mechanics back at the shop so they never get any of the limelight but they must be there.

So it's not impossible that some chapters will have even quite extensive ship building facilities. Especially the first founding chapters would have had access to all sorts of technical knowledge and personnel at the time of the crusades and could easily have build independent, but low-profile, technical support organisations for there war effort. This could then in turn be shared with other chapters later on.

Alternatively, there is also the "crude" option that many chapters just buy there ships, making it a mostly commercial transaction. Many of them will have access to wast amounts of wealth from managing whole planets, loot, etc.

ryng_sting
17-08-2011, 19:56
Perhaps some chapters can largely build and maintain their own fleet, if their world has an output to match that of a Forge World (such as the Raven Guard). Generally I imagine they're built to order at the nearest Forge World like every other ship.

Tenngate
17-08-2011, 23:28
The Codex is not a manual primarily about the business end of waging war. 90% is the logistical buildup to being able to facilitate action. To the Astartes and their serfs this would be everything from sharpening combat blades and cleaning weapons to fully servicing four and half kilometers of Battle Barge. So why not have it include the instructions to fit out a new or fellow chapter?

Concerning the origin of their fleets:

Lets think about foundings:
A decision is made by the high lords that they are due some more chapters and so they set about implementing that motion. Perhaps, in the vast bureaucratic cogs of the Imperium, manufacturing worlds/Shipyards/Parent Chapters "predict" or are given the nod hundreds of years before the declaration is made official. Where do the Fleets come from? I believe the "great" Chapters have the resources/influence to produce drop pods, rhinos STC vehicles etc all the way up to Cruiser level.

Come a founding, the parent chapters that are going to marshal their fledgling brothers converge on Mars bringing with them a quota of equipment produced by their own estate. The exact amount would've been worked out for them by a clerk on terra according to their resources (just like tax!). The remaining logistics would be produced elsewhere and either handed over directly to the chapter or their guardians at this early stage. Larger ships of the fleet would be repaired wrecks, a combination of several cannibalized ships, requested from other chapters who have no need of them and just think - many chapters die fighting on the ground whilst their serfs mind the craft - if a chapter were to be destroyed the Imperium surely would bring the remaining equipment back into the fold. This would be perhaps one of the more cynical tasks of a Chapter serf. Though belonging to a new chapter the ship may have belonged to a string of ill fated ones and be millennia old .

I don't think any new Chapter has to necessarily have it's own shipyard or extremely advanced facilities to roll out new Capital Ships. I'd say maybe only one in ten chapters would be able to do this and only on a small scale. Their facilities would be limited to repairing strike cruisers and aircraft.

That said, I have to put it out there that Ultramar knocks out the odd battle barge now and then.

Consider also that a Chapter fleet isn't that big. It's a delivery mechanism to an elite unit of under a thousand warriors. Not a big unit in the Empire of a Million worlds and all the starships and manufactorums therein...

Sai-Lauren
18-08-2011, 08:31
The Codex is not a manual primarily about the business end of waging war. 90% is the logistical buildup to being able to facilitate action. To the Astartes and their serfs this would be everything from sharpening combat blades and cleaning weapons to fully servicing four and half kilometers of Battle Barge. So why not have it include the instructions to fit out a new or fellow chapter?
Agreed, if only to prevent them having too many "men-at-arms" as the household guard.

Besides which, each Marine effectively needs a certain number of support people behind them, and any more than that begins to cost them in resources for no real gain.



Concerning the origin of their fleets:

Lets think about foundings:
A decision is made by the high lords that they are due some more chapters and so they set about implementing that motion. Perhaps, in the vast bureaucratic cogs of the Imperium, manufacturing worlds/Shipyards/Parent Chapters "predict" or are given the nod hundreds of years before the declaration is made official. Where do the Fleets come from? I believe the "great" Chapters have the resources/influence to produce drop pods, rhinos STC vehicles etc all the way up to Cruiser level.

Don't quite agree. :)

IMO, a new chapter is exactly that, new. Whilst their parent chapter would give them their chapter master, some specialists and a cadre of veterans and scouts to supply an initial combat strength and train up new recruits, they can't give too much else without seriously weakening themselves, so at best they might get a couple of escort class vessels, and maybe a few freighters from the household.

Part of their build up to fighting strength will involve building their support facilities, which would include the fortress-monastary, defence turrets and orbital facilities, including their shipyards.

Then again, IMO, chapter foundings occur in response to events that the High Lords believe will require the new chapters in 50-100 years or so, giving the chapters time to grow organically, not several months time. :)



Come a founding, the parent chapters that are going to marshal their fledgling brothers converge on Mars bringing with them a quota of equipment produced by their own estate. The exact amount would've been worked out for them by a clerk on terra according to their resources (just like tax!). The remaining logistics would be produced elsewhere and either handed over directly to the chapter or their guardians at this early stage. Larger ships of the fleet would be repaired wrecks, a combination of several cannibalized ships, requested from other chapters who have no need of them and just think - many chapters die fighting on the ground whilst their serfs mind the craft - if a chapter were to be destroyed the Imperium surely would bring the remaining equipment back into the fold. This would be perhaps one of the more cynical tasks of a Chapter serf. Though belonging to a new chapter the ship may have belonged to a string of ill fated ones and be millennia old .

Well, by the time you account for the recruits going through training, the injured being repatriated to their chapter and so on, the only way to wipe out a chapter would be to attack their homeworld.

Even if all 10 companies and the entire fleet are on campaign, there'll still be enough back home to keep the chapter alive - although the High Lords themselves may decide a chapter's gone too far beyond what's salvagable and break them up.



I don't think any new Chapter has to necessarily have it's own shipyard or extremely advanced facilities to roll out new Capital Ships. I'd say maybe only one in ten chapters would be able to do this and only on a small scale. Their facilities would be limited to repairing strike cruisers and aircraft.

Agreed, they could maintain their initial escorts and the freighters bringing them supplies, but it won't be until they have a least a couple of companies of marines on active strength that they get anything like a Strike Cruiser.



Consider also that a Chapter fleet isn't that big. It's a delivery mechanism to an elite unit of under a thousand warriors. Not a big unit in the Empire of a Million worlds and all the starships and manufactorums therein...
Agreed, IMO, the average chapter fleet is a single Battle Barge, 4-5 Strike Cruisers and about 20 escort class vessels, with most of them scattered around various patrol routes and in warzones.

MarineMorton
18-08-2011, 16:10
Ultramarines are shown as having in the codex I have next to me..

3 battle barges
8 strike cruisers
12 rapid strike vessels
and 31 thunderhawk gunships

so as you guys saying not much of a fleey.
Aany idea what a rapid strike vessel is?
Also only 31 thunderhawks! not many I thought

Tastyfish
18-08-2011, 16:13
I could see a lot of new chapters just having a couple of strike cruisers, picking up the ones who get 'orphaned'. The marines aren't really a space force, so even if a chapter suffers a complete disaster, it's unlikely the strike cruiser was involved other than dropping pods and releasing Thunderhawks before retreating to the safety of the system's outer reaches. There is going to be a lot of excess capacity.

Might even be one of the big factors when it comes to deciding the chapter's heraldry. You may be a Blood Angel sucessor, but we've got an orphaned Imperial Fist strike cruiser which would need a lot more paint than a few dozen tanks.

Rapid strike vessels are usually just normal imperial escorts (Swords and Cobras mostly, a Firestorm if someone at the ship yards messes up or has really good relations with the chapter). There are some marine variants of these, but think normal escorts are the most common.

shadowhawk2008
18-08-2011, 16:37
Do you mean Novas instead of Firestorms? Novas are the far rarer RSV's used in SM fleets since the Navy doesn't like SM chapters to have access that kind of a pure warship.

And I don't get this "orhpaned SC" concept. It sounds a little ridiculous; did the IF not need a SC all of a sudden?

It should be also noted that SM's usually have their own classes of escort vessels in addition to any (usually) Navy RSV's they may have. These are the Hunter-class Destroyers, Gladius-class Frigates and Nova-class Frigates.

magicmonkey
18-08-2011, 16:41
they get them off ebay :shifty:

Lord Commissar Aquila
18-08-2011, 16:57
, I'm mow a big fan of Techmarine-dominated shipyards being chiefly "putting the magic bricks together" yards rather than "yep, we build our own gubbins". And, more to the point, I suppose I do agree that the likes of the Mentors, the Praetors and so forth might well have such 'decent' shipyards. Except they're not decent at all, they're not really building the ships themselves, they're just trusted to be able to do it (and thus save the Mechanicus time & money).

Easier for the Mechanicus to build components and ship out for assembly, than for the chapter to have to rely on distinct forge worlds for each ship.

(And for politically minded Chapters, this means they can forge links from many more forgeworlds: #components>#ships. So, say, the Iron Hands, the Praetors of Orpheus and the Mentor Legion can all draw on favours from the Mechanicus from dozens/hundreds of associated forgeworlds and such, whereas Chapters who 'get their ships already assembled' only have direct 'trade'/favour relations with whoever supplies the ship and is much more invested in that one organisation.)

As you can see (and I am only just seeing), there's a lot of nuance available to these sorts of processes. I like it!

I see it as well; makes sense.
@Morton:

Its the Space Marine equvalent of an escort.

Xisor
18-08-2011, 21:35
And I don't get this "orhpaned SC" concept. It sounds a little ridiculous; did the IF not need a SC all of a sudden?

You do know the word 'orphan', right? Parents are dead, etc.

So the IF orphaning a SC would come about if the IFs die.

Descriptively, it's feasible. Chapters are 'destroyed' genetically by becoming unsustainable/unstable: what happens to their stuff? They just bin it?

Of course not. Pass it along to a newer chapter. Reconsecrate them. That sort of thing.

Tastyfish
19-08-2011, 00:49
Do you mean Novas instead of Firestorms? Novas are the far rarer RSV's used in SM fleets since the Navy doesn't like SM chapters to have access that kind of a pure warship.
Most chapters use IN classes for escorts, with Firestorms (the IN Nova) being the rarest. You had better have some seriously influence if you want the high tech marine-varient RSVs since they aren't configured for any particularly unusual task, they are just more advanced and rarer craft that marines will hang onto, salvage or pick because they don't have the ability to be so free with man-power and crew as the Imperial Navy is. If you want one of the 'marine' varients, you need both a Forgeworld with the specs (rare) and be able to throw your weight around more than the local admirals who guard the sector and escort tithe convoys. The Navy has the greater need, and the greater influence with Forgeworlds, and could definitely find a place for the rarer RSV varients.

But same reason, Navy doesn't like marines with lances. Marines will end up with the excess the Navy can spare unless they do something special for a relevant Forgeworld. If they're lucky, they'll get a Firestorm by accident, if they have some serious sway they can request Novas but will the likely not get any traditional RSVs from the Navy.



And I don't get this "orhpaned SC" concept. It sounds a little ridiculous; did the IF not need a SC all of a sudden?

The company stationed on board died. The fists have excess fleet capacity, which will go to waste whilst they spend decades rebuilding a company.

Marines are used in extreme circumstances, so if you call them in then they might die because you wouldn't waste them on anything less serious. They're ships are intentionally kept out of front line duties, so it's the opposite for their fleets. Strike Cruisers attack where there is a weakness, drop marines and leave. The Navy then picks up the slack in maintaining a blockage or escorting IG reinforcements.

Strike cruisers survive because they never fight fair. Almost every instance of marines losing in the background would result in a spare strike cruiser, and since a single ship can house a chapter if it had to (as they can deploy three companies at a time, and have greatly reduced crews compared to ships of a similar mass) - why not move a few spares together so they can be put to use whilst you build more alongside new marines.

The Imperial fists don't have to die to 'orphan' a strike cruiser, just the company aboard. Without a lot of tradition behind you (or the ultras secretly building a space combat fleet), I can't see the justification for strike cruisers carrying much less than a company. Lose the company, lose the cruiser to someone who has more marines than they need to deploy in one warzone.

MagosHereticus
19-08-2011, 04:29
navy doesnt have the authority to stop a marine chapter getting firestorms, also they are not that rare

horizon
19-08-2011, 05:32
navy doesnt have the authority to stop a marine chapter getting firestorms, also they are not that rare

In game reply:

hence the request of some players to remove the RSV's from the Marine fleet list completely.
This because the Firestorm RSV is a much better choice then the Nova Frigate itself. Or at least make them a 0-1 choice or so.

The background entry on the Nova frigate in Armada says enough why the Imperial Navy & Inquisition are not fan of the vessel.

Marines should not have lances on their capital ships. Ever.

shadowhawk2008
19-08-2011, 07:47
You do know the word 'orphan', right? Parents are dead, etc.

So the IF orphaning a SC would come about if the IFs die.

Descriptively, it's feasible. Chapters are 'destroyed' genetically by becoming unsustainable/unstable: what happens to their stuff? They just bin it?

Of course not. Pass it along to a newer chapter. Reconsecrate them. That sort of thing.

Chapters don't 'die off' that often for this to be the norm at all. Also, an event that results in the loss of an entire chapter is more than likely going to result in most of their fleet assets having been destroyed as well, especially if this is during deployment in combat zones. The Crimson Consuls are the rare exception to this of course.

I agree that the stuff isn't binned and is probably mothballed until there is need for it, or is just returned to a parent chapter if it exists on record. The Sable Swords (even though they are in heavy canon conflict) were given the abandoned fortress monastery of the dead Astral Knights. But we also have to keep in mind that the Sable Swords were created specifically to replace the Astral Knights so it makes sense for them to get the "orphaned" fleet assets of the dead chapter.


Most chapters use IN classes for escorts, with Firestorms (the IN Nova) being the rarest. You had better have some seriously influence if you want the high tech marine-varient RSVs since they aren't configured for any particularly unusual task, they are just more advanced and rarer craft that marines will hang onto, salvage or pick because they don't have the ability to be so free with man-power and crew as the Imperial Navy is. If you want one of the 'marine' varients, you need both a Forgeworld with the specs (rare) and be able to throw your weight around more than the local admirals who guard the sector and escort tithe convoys. The Navy has the greater need, and the greater influence with Forgeworlds, and could definitely find a place for the rarer RSV varients.

Yet there are also cases of Forge Worlds which have strong relations to SM chapters and if the FW particularly benefits from the actions of the chapter then the FW just gives them a new warship as a gift. I'll try to dig up an example of this but I do remember that a chapter got a battle-barge or a strike cruiser in return for services rendered to a FW, I think it might have been defending the FW.

The Navy can oppose the decision for a chapter to get particularly powerful vessels but it is not a decision that needs solely their approval. What the various organizations are able to procure for their needs is largely dependent on the relations between the various organizations. If the Ecclesiarchy is in direct confrontation with the Navy, then if the Navy opposes chapter XYZ getting a pair of Novas, the Ecclesiarchy will support XYZ. XYZ would have a stronger case if they have also rendered services to perhaps the Inquisition and even the Imperial Guard. This is merely an example of course but things within the Imperium are not so clear cut as you make it out to be.


But same reason, Navy doesn't like marines with lances. Marines will end up with the excess the Navy can spare unless they do something special for a relevant Forgeworld. If they're lucky, they'll get a Firestorm by accident, if they have some serious sway they can request Novas but will the likely not get any traditional RSVs from the Navy.

Does it say anywhere in the background that SM chapters only get their vessels directly from the Imperial Navy? The AM probably creates new escorts and strike cruisers for a new chapter all the time, with the chapter getting the common classes of vessels rather than anything particularly high-powered like a battle-barge or a Nova frigate.


The company stationed on board died. The fists have excess fleet capacity, which will go to waste whilst they spend decades rebuilding a company.

So a chapter will just give over one of their vessels which has particularly strong relevance to the chapter's history and their battle-record because they don't have enough marines to put in the field? Do you think that after the events of the Deus novels and Red Fury from James Swallow, the Blood Angels just gave over some of their ships to the Navy/Inquisition/Mechanicus to give to less-privileged chapters?


Marines are used in extreme circumstances, so if you call them in then they might die because you wouldn't waste them on anything less serious. They're ships are intentionally kept out of front line duties, so it's the opposite for their fleets. Strike Cruisers attack where there is a weakness, drop marines and leave. The Navy then picks up the slack in maintaining a blockage or escorting IG reinforcements.

They are not always called in. chapters undertake battles on their own all the time. In Warriors of Ultramar, the UM strike cruiser wasn't kept off the front lines. In Grey Hunter, the SW warships weren't kept off the front lines but instead undertook a frontal divided assault on the chaos ships. Same goes for the Blood Raven novels.


Strike cruisers survive because they never fight fair. Almost every instance of marines losing in the background would result in a spare strike cruiser, and since a single ship can house a chapter if it had to (as they can deploy three companies at a time, and have greatly reduced crews compared to ships of a similar mass) - why not move a few spares together so they can be put to use whilst you build more alongside new marines.

Battle-barges can deploy about 3 companies or so together, not strike cruisers. But I wouldn't argue that they can't house an entire chapter if it was strictly needed but I doubt that would ever be the case. Putting all the battle-brothers inside a single ship would be quite dangerous.

All ships for SM chapters are a central part of their history, with accumulated battle honours and what not over dozens and hundreds and thousands of years. They aren't just handed over to new chapters because a chapter can't make full use of them for any period of time. Do you think that this is what the Ultramarines did after the Battle for Macragge?


The Imperial fists don't have to die to 'orphan' a strike cruiser, just the company aboard. Without a lot of tradition behind you (or the ultras secretly building a space combat fleet), I can't see the justification for strike cruisers carrying much less than a company. Lose the company, lose the cruiser to someone who has more marines than they need to deploy in one warzone.

I really don't agree with this as I have mentioned above.

horizon
19-08-2011, 07:52
Strike Cruisers can carry 1 company.

Funny thing is that Strike Cruisers as presented in Armada die quickly. Which means that in all my BFG battles I played vs Marines I have wiped out the entire Dark Angels chapter plus more by now. hahahaaha

Luckily FAQ2010/Compendium 2010 gives Marines balance.

Sai-Lauren
19-08-2011, 09:00
Chapters don't 'die off' that often for this to be the norm at all. Also, an event that results in the loss of an entire chapter is more than likely going to result in most of their fleet assets having been destroyed as well, especially if this is during deployment in combat zones. The Crimson Consuls are the rare exception to this of course.

Agreed, even if "the entire chapter" is deployed to a single campaign (which is unlikely as they also have their own holdings to patrol and protect), there'll still be Marines and vessels back at their fortress-monastary for various reasons (e.g, the Raven's Flight audio).

Short of their homeworld getting attacked, the only people that can destroy a Marine chapter are the High Lords themselves - and to be honest, even in that case, they'll still exist in some form, e.g, passed to the Inquisition as permenant Deathwatch members.



I agree that the stuff isn't binned and is probably mothballed until there is need for it, or is just returned to a parent chapter if it exists on record. The Sable Swords (even though they are in heavy canon conflict) were given the abandoned fortress monastery of the dead Astral Knights. But we also have to keep in mind that the Sable Swords were created specifically to replace the Astral Knights so it makes sense for them to get the "orphaned" fleet assets of the dead chapter.

Kind of agree, but a new chapter probably wouldn't have the manpower to run them or even maintain them properly for a good few years, and those assets could be considered a good target for raiders to try and grab. They might need to be given over to the care of their parent chapter and held in trust for them.



Yet there are also cases of Forge Worlds which have strong relations to SM chapters and if the FW particularly benefits from the actions of the chapter then the FW just gives them a new warship as a gift. I'll try to dig up an example of this but I do remember that a chapter got a battle-barge or a strike cruiser in return for services rendered to a FW, I think it might have been defending the FW.

I'd go with that, and add in the possibility of them being rewards for recovering STC fragments, destroying heretical technology, as a form of prize for capturing enemy vessels (especially alien ones for examination) and so on.



They are not always called in. chapters undertake battles on their own all the time. In Warriors of Ultramar, the UM strike cruiser wasn't kept off the front lines. In Grey Hunter, the SW warships weren't kept off the front lines but instead undertook a frontal divided assault on the chaos ships. Same goes for the Blood Raven novels.

Agreed - IMO, most of a Chapter's campaigns are either something they've planned themselves (especially chapters like the Dark Angels), or one of their patrols encounters something. They're really only loosely allied to the Imperium, with the strength of that alliance depending on the chapter in question.

Xisor
19-08-2011, 18:08
Strike Cruisers can carry 1 company.


Correction, my good man, Strike Cruisers can rapidly deploy one company. It's somewhat of a meme, IIRC, that's spun off that 'deploy in 20min of arriving in orbit' means 'total capacity'.

I mean: if we assume the SC has it's hangar for it's handful of Thunderhawks and Landers, and there's an armoury somewhere further back which stows the 'ground/air vehicles' (Land Speeders, bikes, Rhinos etc). Then all the 'spare space' in a Strike Cruiser really is spare. It needs much less room for crew, much less room needed for 'inexplicable stuff' (man-powered hamster wheels, stompers from Galaxy Quest)...

There's almost no reason that it'd be difficult to store an entire chapter on one ship. Silly and foolish? Certainly. But, at a push, it could almost certainly be done. They'd just be abandoning a ton of raw materials and infrastructure.

(For one Strike Cruiser: Training facilities might get crowded, chapels might only be built for ~100, armoury might only be able to work simultaneously on a dozen battle-suits at a time.)

But, as you can see, that's a tad facetious of me to even point out. It's not mentioned in the discussion so far though, so it's good to raise the point, even if it's a bit 'go nowhere'.

---

@ SH: Again, I think there's a difference between 'norm' and 'common', one that folks aren't really arguing over. Space Marine ships are plainly acquired from very many sources. Build-in-instalments magazine orders perhaps entertained by Techmarines, direct trades with a Forgeworld, pacts with many forgeworlds, trade with the Navy, hard work by the chapter, long-standing tithe/debt from the Adeptus Terra: there's a lot of ways.

That said, as others have discussed, Marines typically deploy on the ground Strike Cruisers and Marine escorts are only principally effective when they deploy on their own. In fleet engagements they're a massive over-investment for their return.

Look at the cases in the novels: When you lose a Strike Cruiser, you typically lose a company. It'd certainly have been that way in Salamander if it weren't for the plot-handiness of the novel. Conversely, with the Imperial Fists deployed in Storm of Iron, the deployment of the Ultras in Fall of Damnos, the Black Templars in Helsreach, the Dark Angels in Purging of Kadillus, the Crimson Fists in Rynn's World, the Thousand Sons during Prospero in A Thousand Sons, the Ultramarines (again) in Nightbringer and Warriors of Ultramar...

Time and again we see mass deployments of Marines where the only danger presented to the Strike Cruiser is in the act of deployment. Once that's done, they retreat to a game of cat and mouse, holding off/distracting orbital support. Strictly speaking, those are two 'separate games'. You can lose the ground war and keep the Strike Cruiser, you can win on the ground but lose in orbit (though I'd wager you'd be soon obliterated by orbital barrage soon after).

In the cases where such losses occur, which are perhaps one of the more feasibly common ways to lose a 'ton of Marines', the resulting assets can indeed be orphaned. I'd imagine in the case Iracundus describes, a company lost in a surviving chapter, that the SC would simply be retained as a 'handy extra asset' for the Chapter. Suddenly companies can be split to deal with more but smaller threats, rather than having to hang around waiting for a serious threat, or over-investing in a smaller threat...or sending a company spread across a squadron...

You get the idea. More assets = more options. But those aren't the only concerns of a chapter. Legacy and continued existence in geneseed is quite important. Chapters can (and do) die wholesale, I'd say that's one of the big 'fears' that the Adeptus Astartes still suffer. Being permitted to deport a force of your veterans is always good. If you've suffered a severe body-loss, you might still be keen to send on something, to show the Adeptus Terra that you're still playing ball, that you know your obligations to the Imperium.

Perhaps it's not the norm, but extremely far from inconceivable.

D3athduo
26-08-2011, 20:24
Perhaps some chapters can largely build and maintain their own fleet, if their world has an output to match that of a Forge World (such as the Raven Guard). Generally I imagine they're built to order at the nearest Forge World like every other ship.

Weel, I think that GW wants us to decide for ourselves how our CHapters get their ships, for example:
One may steal ships.
Buy ships.
Build ships themselves or own a factory for building them.
Have a homeworld htat the inhabitants can build ships.
Ask the Mechanicus for ships.
etc.

That way everyone's Chapter isn't the same in terms of fleets. I actually just recently started reseraching fluff, chapters, fleets, basic game information and I've noticed large gpas in information that WE'RE meant to fill in and most people don't realize that. Such as the creation of our fleets, Creation of Chapter Army Lists (I had a hard time with that one until I realized it was up to me to build it from scratch :wtf:, that they wouldn't have a set number of troops for each), homeworld location and even creation of worlds. I think thats what makes WH40K really cool is the ability for me to say at the beginning: "I WANT my own Chapter!" and GW says: "Build it." Then: "I WANT my own Fleet. GW: "Then build it." or: "I WANT my own homeworld!" GW: "Make it." You get the idea. Really cool. :cool: