PDA

View Full Version : Uber-SM in TT



masecase
09-04-2006, 08:48
I know most of us should by now have agreed, that marines are in opposite to TT godlike in fluff.

Reading the last threads about space marines and their use it occured to me, that it would maybe make the game fare more exciting to make them really stronger in TT so they would be played as a small forve with uber soldiers and not just the army everyone can play.

So, would you vote for or against a hard change of the play style of Space Marines and of course Grey Knights to super hard soldiers?

I know, that it would individual models extreme expensive, but I feel, that it would give them alot more atmosphere.:)

Minister
09-04-2006, 09:08
Observe the change between a Guardsman and Marine. Marines are clearly better than Guardsmen.
Observe the change between Marines and Genestealers, Tyranid Warriors and Ogryns. All of these are clearly better than Marines.

If you change Marines, you have to change everything else.

Sgt Biffo
09-04-2006, 09:30
Minister has a very good point.

Space marines are the mean of the 40k rules system.

Changing them means changing the system.

Fluff has increased their stats over time. Original marines were meerly a champion human stat (roughly the equivilent of a vet. sgt. guard). The bridge between 1st and 2nd Ed (around the time of the Battle manual) saw the introdution of the current marine profile.



...and what the hell does TT mean?

ankellagung
09-04-2006, 09:35
table-top. blah.

DantesInferno
09-04-2006, 09:38
If you want atmosphere, play Inquisitor. The rules for Marines in it are brutal.

If you want a relatively balanced, fun tabletop wargame with platoon/company level engagements, play 40k.

Hell, if you want you could even use the "Movie Marine" rules to get to the complete other end of the spectrum.

Pilgrim
09-04-2006, 09:49
Minister has a very good point.

Space marines are the mean of the 40k rules system.

Changing them means changing the system.

Fluff has increased their stats over time. Original marines were meerly a champion human stat (roughly the equivilent of a vet. sgt. guard). The bridge between 1st and 2nd Ed (around the time of the Battle manual) saw the introdution of the current marine profile.



...and what the hell does TT mean?

TT = Tabletop

To answer Masecase's question; Space Marines are not godlike soldiers. They are considerably better in combat terms than an unaugmented human, true. Their augmentations (and additional high-technology) do not, however, make them invincible. In an open-field engagement Space Marines will take very high casualties. They simply cannot take the volume of firepower that they would draw.

The style of engagement that Space Marines are best suited for is that of rapid, surgical strikes (for more on this subject check the thread on Space Marine deployments). In this role they minimise their exposure to concentrated fire, thus limiting casualties (which a chapter can ill afford, given their small sizes and slow recovery from battle loss).

In my eyes, the damage which a Space Marine force can sustain in open battle in the various game systems (Epic in particular) is appropriate for the most part. Game balance, and the rules system slightly distort the effect (most noticeably in Warhammer 40,000), but this is true for all the forces represented in the game. To fully bring the games in line with reality would require a total rewrite.

I would also add that the background which most describes the Space Marines as godlike is the novels. These are not all that reliable, since they are, for the most part, heroic fiction. That is to say that they distort the ablities of the characters in order to make the protagonist (or anyone else the author wishes) look good. There are other background pieces which show the Space Marines in a less invincible light, which shows their treatment by Games Workshop is not consistent. Generally the actual background, as opposed to the novels and other fiction, is more reliable in my mind. It is this which gives the idea that Space Marines are not invincible super troopers, but that they are a precision strike force, which engages in small scale shock assaults in order to maximise their small numbers, and also avoid the unsustainable casualties they would take if they were operating as standard line infantry.

Adrian

Sgt Biffo
09-04-2006, 10:04
table-top. blah.

Well... UATCIVP!

Norminator
09-04-2006, 11:15
Does anyone know where I could procur the Movie Marine rules?

Pilgrim
09-04-2006, 14:00
Does anyone know where I could procur the Movie Marine rules?

They have not yet been released in the UK (if they ever will be :( ). You can find them in American WD 300 and Australian WD 301, I have also heard that they were in the German and Italian WDs (although I don't know which issue).

If you can get hold of any of those then you'll have the article. Otherwise it's a case of waiting to see if they ever put them online or in UK WD (unlikely now that it is apparently becoming a pure catalogue).

Adrian

Typheron
09-04-2006, 14:24
http://forums.relicnews.com/archive/index.php/t-52390.html

a report from a battle involving "movie marines" they sounds rather nasty

El_Machinae
10-04-2006, 00:30
Remember that the 'fluff' states that often Marines don't die when they fall - so casualties are actually much lower than they appear on the table top.

Are genestealers supposed to be much tougher than marines in the fluff?

Minister
10-04-2006, 00:41
Genestealers mince the hell out of Terminators if they engage at close range, let alone standard Marines.

fracas
10-04-2006, 01:28
guards should be the standard for 40k, not marines

Sgt Biffo
10-04-2006, 02:06
guards should be the standard for 40k, not marines

Shold and are, are often two entirely different things.

Scorpio
10-04-2006, 02:09
guards should be the standard for 40k, not marines

They really should be. Uber TT marines would be fun. Not as good as movie marines obviously that is going incredibly overboard. but marines are supposed to be the elite of the elite in terms of humans. GK need to be tougher period

-Scorpio

Ophidicus
10-04-2006, 02:16
the rules specifically state that you have to play. The article pretty much says that you cannot refuse to play because it's your own fault for not having bought the white dwarf and knowing about the rules ahead of time. Not only that, but your opponent doesn't have to show you the rules until they come into play and you say WTF? as his bolter armed marines start killing dreadnoughts.
Hahah, that reminds me of another rule... you don't need to know it, they don't need to show it you for you to arrested because of it...

Movie Marines are daft, Uber-soldier fluff is propaganda. And breathe.

Yodhrin
10-04-2006, 15:23
Hahah, that reminds me of another rule... you don't need to know it, they don't need to show it you for you to arrested because of it...

Movie Marines are daft, Uber-soldier fluff is propaganda. And breathe.

The few sensible people in that thread pretty much pointed out how retarded the OP was being. The list is Chapter UNapproved, meaning you need opponant's permission, and the article was clearly presented as a "for fun" list meant to provide people with a few laughs of an afternoon.

And to be honest, if you're stupid enough to not even ask to look at the article and check to see if it really is mandatory to play against, you deserve to be shredded.

El_Machinae
10-04-2006, 17:32
Genestealers mince the hell out of Terminators if they engage at close range, let alone standard Marines.

Fluffwise? Wow.

So clearing a spacehulk of 'nids must be expensive in man-power terms.

masecase
10-04-2006, 18:33
Not necessary, since a symbiot might massacre a terminator in Close Combat, but Strategy and tactic are as much a part of Space Marine training as physical education.

Scorpio
10-04-2006, 20:59
Not necessary, since a symbiot might massacre a terminator in Close Combat, but Strategy and tactic are as much a part of Space Marine training as physical education.

Quite right. Yes a genestealer might mince a termi but thats if hes used wrong. for instance say he has ass cannon he minces the nid at range then walks over and kicks dead body.

-Scorpio

sulla
10-04-2006, 22:20
guards should be the standard for 40k, not marines

Naah, if this were D&D, humans would be the standard... But in 40K, the universe is a much scarier place and most races are better than humans man-to-man. That's why marines were built in the first place...

El_Machinae
11-04-2006, 17:50
The whole idea started with Marines too, which is why they're the standard. I mean, to determine what a Marine is, statwise, we need human stats (since we can relate) - but we have those. By using guard stats.