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Ealdwulf
16-08-2011, 16:31
So I'm just now getting back into WHFB, and 8th is glistening with new rules to wrap my head around.

So it's been awhile since I played, but used to be only spear regiments got a 2nd rank attack? And for High Elves with Martial Prowess they attacked in 3 ranks.

Now, it seems like 2nd rank always make a support attack facing forward, (spears or not). Does that mean Spears always attack in 3 ranks? If so, how does the High Elf Rule, Martial Prowess come into play?

I did a search but didn't see anything, so any help would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance.

Ramius4
16-08-2011, 16:35
Yes the 2nd rank always adds supporting attacks. Spears allow one additional rank as you said. Martial prowess give you another (so 4 typically).

There's also the horde formation rule. To claim 'horde formation' your unit needs to be 10 models wide. This gives the horde the ability to attack with an additional rank as well. So if you had 50 high elf spearmen ranked up 10 wide, you can get all 5 ranks fighting.

theunwantedbeing
16-08-2011, 16:36
Units now get a rank of supporting attacks when fighting enemies to their front.
+1 rank of supporting attacks for having spears(when not charging)
+1 rank of supporting attacks for being in a horde formation (10+ wide)
+1 rank of supporting attacks for having the martial prowess rule when you have a spear

These are all cumulative with each other.

Ealdwulf
16-08-2011, 16:38
Good lord, that's pretty intense!

Sorry just quite a change from times of old, was still trying to rationalize it all.

Looks like its time to get those Sea Guard put together! :-p

Oberon
16-08-2011, 16:40
Just note, that to get the extra rank from martial prowess, you can't be charging. So it's not just a "fight in extra rank", it's "use spears in extra rank". ->HE spearmen strike from 2 ranks when charging and 4 (5 in horde) when receiving one.

Ramius4
16-08-2011, 16:41
Good lord, that's pretty intense!

Sorry just quite a change from times of old, was still trying to rationalize it all.

Looks like its time to get those Sea Guard put together! :-p

Yeah, nowadays you can get your money's worth out of most Core troops. Spearmen can finally be effective, especially if you have some good augment spells to help out on the Strength.

Ealdwulf
16-08-2011, 16:49
Just note, that to get the extra rank from martial prowess, you can't be charging. So it's not just a "fight in extra rank", it's "use spears in extra rank". ->HE spearmen strike from 2 ranks when charging and 4 (5 in horde) when receiving one.

Sure that makes sense, I just think a unit like that would definitely be an AOE spell/warmachine magnet. And with Elves, I don't think many of them would get to the end target. I could be wrong though.

Oberon
16-08-2011, 17:10
Magic and the rest of the army helps in getting your spears to stand in front of the target, taunting them to charge.
-flesh to stone, +2 or +4 to toughness helps a lot
-earthblood, regeneration helps
-regrowth, raising your dead kinda helps (difficult spell and doesn't raise enough to be worthwhile with spears)
-lores of light and heavens have a few nice augments/hexes too
-great eagles and archers are great in removing enemy warmachines/archers, as are dragon princes (a bit expensive for that though)

Of course, if none of those or the other tricks around help, then that ~40 spearelf-regiment will get decimated. Luckily it doesn't matter how many are dead at the end, if at least one remains...

enyoss
16-08-2011, 17:17
Just note, that to get the extra rank from martial prowess, you can't be charging. So it's not just a "fight in extra rank", it's "use spears in extra rank". ->HE spearmen strike from 2 ranks when charging and 4 (5 in horde) when receiving one.

Is that an 8th edition change (i.e. one in the FAQ)? The 6th and 7th edition rules used to be that Spearmen fought with 2 ranks on the charge, and 3 when remaining stationary.

I have a feeling that the `Ignore the last sentence' part of the FAQ might relate to this, although I don't have my book with me to check.

Oberon
16-08-2011, 17:21
Last sentence: 3 when standing still, 2 when charging.

Martial prowess is now just spears+1, it works when spears work.

EDIT: shouldn't have said "just", as it's half the reason why spears are good :/

enyoss
16-08-2011, 17:28
Cheers for that :). I had a feeling from the lack of dissent that it was something clear cut and obvious like that!

Mr_Rose
16-08-2011, 19:19
Good lord, that's pretty intense!

Sorry just quite a change from times of old, was still trying to rationalize it all.

Looks like its time to get those Sea Guard put together! :-p
Another 'just note' that seems to have been missed, and particularly relevant if you end up facing multi-attack infantry like chaos warriors; the extra ranks, no matter the source, get a maximum of one attack per model unless they are monstrous infantry, monstrous beasts, or the rider-half of monstrous cavalry.

And, thinking of sea-guard, it occurs to me that you may not have noticed that you can shoot in two ranks and half of your bows can shoot from the rear ranks if they are stationary too.

Yrrdead
16-08-2011, 20:16
Last sentence: 3 when standing still, 2 when charging.

Martial prowess is now just spears+1, it works when spears work.

EDIT: shouldn't have said "just", as it's half the reason why spears are good :/

I can't say that I agree with this interpretation. Martial prowess isn't tied to spears in anyway and works all the time.

Ealdwulf
16-08-2011, 20:47
Another 'just note' that seems to have been missed, and particularly relevant if you end up facing multi-attack infantry like chaos warriors; the extra ranks, no matter the source, get a maximum of one attack per model unless they are monstrous infantry, monstrous beasts, or the rider-half of monstrous cavalry.

And, thinking of sea-guard, it occurs to me that you may not have noticed that you can shoot in two ranks and half of your bows can shoot from the rear ranks if they are stationary too.

So, Sword Masters for instance, would only get those 2 attacks for the front ranks correct?

So if you had a unit of 40 Sea Guard let's say, first 20 would get to fire bows, then the remaining 10. So 30 Bow shots if stationary?

Ramius4
16-08-2011, 20:51
So, Sword Masters for instance, would only get those 2 attacks for the front ranks correct?

So if you had a unit of 40 Sea Guard let's say, first 20 would get to fire bows, then the remaining 10. So 30 Bow shots if stationary?

That is correct.

And by the way, I'd have to look at the high elf book to be certain... But Martial Prowess used to work all the time whether or not you charged that turn. I'd double-check what some have already said about it.

theunwantedbeing
16-08-2011, 20:51
So, Sword Masters for instance, would only get those 2 attacks for the front ranks correct?

So if you had a unit of 40 Sea Guard let's say, first 20 would get to fire bows, then the remaining 10. So 30 Bow shots if stationary?

Supporting attacks.

Depends how wide the sea guard are.
10 wide, then yes the front 2 ranks get to fire as normal.
The others are just from volley fire which has it's ow special rules.

Mr_Rose
16-08-2011, 21:23
So, Sword Masters for instance, would only get those 2 attacks for the front ranks correct?

So if you had a unit of 40 Sea Guard let's say, first 20 would get to fire bows, then the remaining 10. So 30 Bow shots if stationary?
First rank_ only; the second and later ranks all use the same supporting attacks rule, that allows only one attack regardless of your attacks characteristic, extra hand weapon, Frenzy etc.
But yes, the Swordmasters' rear ranks only get to make one attack.

As for the bows, the first two ranks, however wide, get to shoot at full effect then, if the unit is stationary, half of the remaining models get to fire too. So for a ranked unit five wide and four deep, you get fifteen bow shots. If that same unit were eight ranks deep instead, you'd get twenty-five shots.

eron12
17-08-2011, 05:52
I can't say that I agree with this interpretation. Martial prowess isn't tied to spears in anyway and works all the time.

+1

And even if it was tied to spears, the elves still use their spears when charging, they just don't get the bonus. So martial prowess would still be aplicable.

Oberon
17-08-2011, 07:11
Spears give you fight in extra ranks-rule, which means a supporting attack. BUT! Spears give the rule only when you're not charging, so when you are charging you don't get extra supporting attacks. FAQ says we ignore the part of martial prowess that says 3 ranks when standing still and 2 when charging, this means that you DON't get any extra use from martial prowess when you charge.

"High elves armed with spears may fight with one extra rank to the front only"<-I'd say MP was pretty well tied to spears.

enyoss
17-08-2011, 07:32
Looking at it again, I think that Martial Prowess still gives spear armed elves the extra attack on the charge. Nothing in the rule itself has changed apart from the removal of the outdated clarification, which was a 7th edition hard coding.

That's how I see it anyway.

Yrrdead
17-08-2011, 07:34
The FAQ removed that line due to the 8th edition changes related to supporting attacks.

What I meant by saying Martial Prowess isn't tied to spears is ;

Martial Prowess is a rule that allows an extra rank of spear equipped elves to fight (to the front only) period.

Spears(foot) are a special weapon that confer the special rule Fight in Extra Ranks.

Fight in Extra Ranks != Martial Prowess.

Munin
17-08-2011, 10:42
+1

Couldn't have said it better myself.

eron12
17-08-2011, 12:02
Spears give you fight in extra ranks-rule, which means a supporting attack. BUT! Spears give the rule only when you're not charging, so when you are charging you don't get extra supporting attacks.

True but completly irelevent.



FAQ says we ignore the part of martial prowess that says 3 ranks when standing still and 2 when charging, this means that you DON't get any extra use from martial prowess when you charge.

No it doesn't. It means you get 4 ranks while standing still and 3 while charging. I think we all agree HE get 4 ranks while standing still. They couldn't get that if we didn't ignore that part. Now we also know that martial prowess upped the number of ranks used from charging from 1 to 2. So if it moves the standing still ranks to four, it logically also moves the charging ranks to 3.


"High elves armed with spears may fight with one extra rank to the front only"<-I'd say MP was pretty well tied to spears.

Do high elf spearmen cease to be armed with spears when they charge? No. Under the 8th ed rules do HE spearmen ever have an option to not fight with their spears? No again. Finally, does the rule you quoted say it doesn't apply when charging. No a third time.

I would say the part you quoted shows that HEs fight in 3 ranks on the charge.

Ramius4
17-08-2011, 16:20
Spears give you fight in extra ranks-rule, which means a supporting attack. BUT! Spears give the rule only when you're not charging, so when you are charging you don't get extra supporting attacks. FAQ says we ignore the part of martial prowess that says 3 ranks when standing still and 2 when charging, this means that you DON't get any extra use from martial prowess when you charge.

"High elves armed with spears may fight with one extra rank to the front only"<-I'd say MP was pretty well tied to spears.

You're wrong. The reason the FAQ says to ignore that sentence is because in 8th edition it would be 4 ranks when standing still and 3 when charging.

They fight with one additional rank to the front. Always.

Oberon
18-08-2011, 08:29
I can see what you are meaning there, and I'd like to be wrong here as I play HE, but I don't think I'm going to argue this with my group any time soon or succeed when I do as the rule speaks of spear armed elves.

eron12
18-08-2011, 17:11
I can see what you are meaning there, and I'd like to be wrong here as I play HE, but I don't think I'm going to argue this with my group any time soon or succeed when I do as the rule speaks of spear armed elves.

And when, under 8th ed rules, are HE spearmen not armed with spears? They literally cannot use their handweapons but in all cases must fight with spears.

Ask your group to show you the rule that says you only use a weapon if you gain a benifit from it. Or a rule that says spears are not used on the charge (rather than their +1 rank only counting on the charge).

Hopefully if your group is not consumed with HE hate they can see that those rules don't exist.

Oberon
18-08-2011, 17:23
True enough, spearmen hit with their spears even when they can't strike with them from the back ranks.. I'll try :D

Wilhelm das Blutige
23-02-2013, 06:05
Yes the 2nd rank always adds supporting attacks. Spears allow one additional rank as you said. Martial prowess give you another (so 4 typically).

There's also the horde formation rule. To claim 'horde formation' your unit needs to be 10 models wide. This gives the horde the ability to attack with an additional rank as well. So if you had 50 high elf spearmen ranked up 10 wide, you can get all 5 ranks fighting.

Check the High Elves army book. The Martial Prowess skill description is specific in stating that they attack in 3 ranks with this skill, not another rank over the normal 3. Effectively, the skill is redundant/

Kalandros
23-02-2013, 06:58
High Elf Spear Horde can attack with up to 50 models just fine if they aren't charging, 40 if they charged.

Mr_Rose
23-02-2013, 09:30
Check the High Elves army book. The Martial Prowess skill description is specific in stating that they attack in 3 ranks with this skill, not another rank over the normal 3. Effectively, the skill is redundant/

1. There have been several rounds of errata, amendments and FAQs since this thread was posted; you may wish to review them.
2. Don't resurrect two-year-old threads, especially not to post redundant info (that whole thing, including the amendment to the martial prowess rule, has been covered in this thread already) or repeat an existing point.