View Full Version : Kind of a dumb question, maybe, but...

17-08-2011, 00:30
...after having read "Horus Rising" and being halfway through "False Gods", does Tarik "outrank" Garviel, since he commands the 2nd and Garviel the 10th Company? I assume Ezekyle outranks them all except Horus himself, yes?

Incidentally, "False Gods" is so far nowhere near as good as "Horus Rising" was. In particular the portrayals of Horus and Abbaddon seem MUCH more caricatured and one-dimensional than in the first book.

17-08-2011, 00:38
HRM: Unfortunately that's true, at least in my experience. FG & GiF are a significant step down from HR, alas. Well worth pushing through, though. They're enjoyable books. As an aside, though, I think Horus Rising was absurdly good in the first place, easily one of Dan's finest. So with that in mind it's not entirely surprising that the others would be a bit worse.

On question: I'm not sure. Not properly. There's certainly a chain of command, but strictly speaking the captains are all the same rank. There's prestige in the company numberings, but whether that goes so far as to actual outranking...I don't think so.

Incidentally, the short Little Horus in Age of Darkness begins to touch on things along these lines. Not quite, but it's something for you to look forward to much further down the Heresy line (assuming you read them in published order [which seems sensible, to me]).

17-08-2011, 01:57
We must remember that Horus Rising was written by Dan Abnett, and he is a sorcerer.

As far as out-ranking is concerned, I believe that they don't outrank each other. Otherwise it turns into a game of "who's higher" in which they'd just end up with Horus telling everyone what to do. I think that, as relates to that time period, each company is a sovereign body only under the control of its captain and Primarch. But, in the case of joint operations I think that a 'lower' ranking captain might defer, respectfully, to a more seasoned and wizened captain.

Heading South, a query: how does Abaddon go from "Rar I am Abaddon I am so angry all the time!" to "Rar I am Abaddon King of Chaos n'at."

Inquisitor Engel
17-08-2011, 02:25
In many other Horus Heresy books, it's pointed out that the lower the company number captain, the higher the rank. I remember thinking it made sense.

I believe in "Savage Weapons" Sevatar demands that Dark Angels show him some respect because he's First Captain and Alerho (sp?) is Captain of the 9th.

I could be completely off base with that, though, I did the audiobook instead of reading it.

17-08-2011, 09:24
What about the dude, what`s his name, the guy in charge of the regular army unitsÉ Does he have to defer to the Captains too, or just Horus? It`s all so vague, haha.

17-08-2011, 11:02
Hektor Varvarus defers to Horus since Horus commands the expeditionary fleet. I would imagine however that his 'rank' is somewhat similar to Abaddon.

Inquisitor Engel
17-08-2011, 17:38
What about the dude, what`s his name, the guy in charge of the regular army unitsÉ Does he have to defer to the Captains too, or just Horus? It`s all so vague, haha.

In "Prospero Burns" the Wolves' Captain has to essentially make their case for the plan to the Imperial army commanders, even though the Army had asked for their help fighting the Quietude.

That said, in the Heresy, the only person who could order a Primarch around was the Emperor or another Primarch (and really then, only Horus could give ORDERS to other Primarchs). Some of the more reserved and respectful Primarchs also listened to the Sigilite, but I wouldn't call those orders.

17-08-2011, 22:14
Many thanks for the responses, all.

19-08-2011, 02:35
I always assumed that the First Captain outranked the rest, at least unofficially, but the rest of them were essentially equal. Otherwise, what happens when 2nd Captain dies? Either a new guy suddenly outranks everyone else, or each and every company gets a new captain as each one is promoted in turn. That would be bad for wartime effectiveness I think.

19-08-2011, 03:13
I don't think there's one hard and fast rule for all the legions, in the absence of the Codex Astartes there is no standard form of organisation and there are often quirks in legion set up such as the Emperor's Children having Lord Commanders. While the 1st captain often seems to be #2 in command, they're not always the most influential in regards to the Primarch's decision making. For example Kharn isn't a 1st captain, Kor Phaeron isn't, Torgaddon/Aximand and Loken seem to have as much influence as Abaddon even though he technically outranks them etc.

So while the 1st capt seems to be #2 quite often (Abaddon, Ahriman etc) it isn't quite as simple as often their influence is outweighed elsewhere. I would assume all other captains rank at equal levels on a purely technical basis, considering specialised chapters/companies/whatever often have higher numerical values but aren't any less important than those of lower values. Would an assault marine captain really be inferior to Generic Space Marine A, 5th captain, just because Mr A is leading what develop into tactical squads and tend to have lower numerical values? Torgaddon's whole attitude toward Loken doesn't suggest superiority either.

19-08-2011, 09:31
Torgaddon's whole attitude toward Loken doesn't suggest superiority either.

I noticed this myself.

Now, how does this compare to the current Chapter organisation? Is Cato Sicarius, for example, outranked by the 1st Company's Captain?

19-08-2011, 12:15
Personally, I'd like to think it goes by seniority and battle records, but I base this on nothing (at least for the Legions). Every legion could be different though.