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Oberon
18-08-2011, 09:07
Soo... I read the little SoM novel Dragonmage, and I just had to make this list and I will try it out this weekend against either empire or probably TK. Empire won't use more than one of each warmachine, we tend to have a bit less competetive armies around here (I'm bit of an exception usually, but not this time IMO). :)

Prince: lance, dragon armour, shield, vambraces of defence, radiant gem of hoeth (fire, fireball), MOON dragon=568
Dragon mage: LV2, fire (duh), silver wand, guardian phoenix, sword of might (LOL), SUN dragon=435
Mage: LV2, shadows, seer staff of saphery (withering, pit of shades)=165

20 archers: musician, standard, banner of everlasting flames=245
12 archers: musician=137
12 archers: musician=137
20 spearmen: FC=205

6 dragon princes: FC, banner of sorcery, ruby ring of rhuin=305

RBT=100
RBT=100
=2397

So, lots of shooting, 2 fireballs and dragon mage has some spellstoo, shadow mage is there to wither the enemy to help my S4/S3 shooting&magic. Combat-duty is left for DP and dragons.
Dragon mage hopes for firestorm, flaming cage and piercing bolts I think, but flaming sword might be nice for archers...

SkawtheFalconer
18-08-2011, 09:20
You've got two dudes in head bands wading their way through a surprisingly large amount of bad guys in order to get their kidnapped girlfriend back?

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :)

You haven't got anywhere near enough combat for my liking. In 8th ed, the game is usually won in combat (outrageous spells aside) in my experience. I don't think you've got enough shooting to stop the enemy before it reaches you.

Oberon
18-08-2011, 09:29
Well the riders *could* have head bands, they keep the hair from flowing to their face when flying... Evil men of the empire obviously have kidnapped a caledorian princess or something, no? :)

"The plan" is to thin the ranks quite a bit with shooting and fireballs, dragons fly together (for challenges+providing LD for sun dragon's monster reaction check) and they certainly can chew through an infantry unit together (esp if it is undead).

It might not be enough, but I just have to try. :) IDK what I'm going to do if he brings large units of chariots or more than one sphinx though. I don't have enough dakka to bring a sphinx down fast.Maybe that's the reason why shadow mage chose pit of shades...

Duke_of_Krondor
18-08-2011, 09:42
Curse you :-) I was going to run this for fun, at a tournament a few weeks back.

Like the theme but I will say that the spearmen will get massacred with just 20 of them. I'd be tempted to run 2 units of 30 with no archers (295 each, so give one a magic flag to make 600 points - 25% core). The main thing that strikes me is that you don't have many feet on the ground. I'd drop the dragon princes (although I'd understand if you wanted them for the theme) and the RBTs and take a unit of either white lions or phoenix guard to give you an anvil that the dragons can break things on. Other than that it looks fun. I tend to run vambraces of defense, AoCaledor and a GW on a dragon mounted prince - I've found that great weapon to be better than most magic weapons since it's a +2 str weapon for a handful of points and it doesn't eat the budget for magic items.

Oberon
18-08-2011, 10:17
Sure, I would have used dragonhelm+vambraces+stubborn for the prince if I didn't want to have a caster prince for the theme. DP are there for the theme, for gathering gaming experience with them ( I use white lions and SM all the time) and to have something fast with the dragons. Spears are there to fill minimum core reguirements, I intended to use only archers first, but my models ran out first. I COULD take lothern sea guard instead of archers and spears, but that would run against the theme and IMO LSG are sub-par. With so little combat in there, I need that extra 6" of range.

If I wanted to make a more powerful force, I wouldn't have included any of the 3 characters, DP or RBTs, but that wasn't possible. :/ I might be able to reason in the swordmasters, as the bodyguard of shadow mage. I'll tinker with the army builder a bit...

EDIT: 18 SM with sorcery and ring of ruin=375, I'd have to drop dragon princes and a RBT for them. I think I'll keep the DP for theme this time.

Pyriel
18-08-2011, 10:37
MAGIC DEFENSE
-drop the Seerstaff.(+30 pts saved)
-get Annulian Crystal(should seriously mess up enemy casters!)(-10 pts saved total)

CLOSE COMBAT
-drop the Radiant Gem of Hoeth.(+35 pts saved total)
-drop the 2 Bolt Throwers.(+235 pts saved total)
-drop the ruby ring.(iirc, +265 pts saved total)
-drop one dragon prince.(+295 pts saved total)
-buy 20 swordmasters AND keep the dragon princes, for fluff ;) .(-5 pts saved total)

minor core survivability fix
-drop the 20 spearmen. (+200 pts saved total)
-drop the 12 archers.(+337 pts saved total)
-drop the 12 archers. (+474 pts saved total)
-get 32 Lothern Sea Guard with shields, full command and battle banner (461 pts cost; we are now nearly equal with couple pts spare, maybe buy standard bearer for the swordmasters?).

4 ranks of 8 produce EXACTLY the same ammount of volley fire arrows.
exactly the same. the only difference is, they are of course MUCH harder to break. especialy shadow-supported(who knows? you roll for two shadow spells now, and shadow has 2 excellent buffs and 2 excellent debuffs.)

you now have exactly the same ammount of arrows, nearly the same magic (since you know 5 spells and have limited magic dice, TRUST me, you wouldnt use all these previous spells anyway), significantly improved magic defense and scarily improved combat.

theforce is comprised of 32 sea guard, 20 archers for some watchtower mission, two characters on dragons,one moderate caster/capable dispeller, 5 dragon princes and 20 swordmsmasters.

CaptainFaramir
18-08-2011, 10:40
If you are taking two Dragons then you need to be up in the enemies face asap - into combat where they can't be shot.

I'd drop both bolt throwers (they are really really pants) for two eagles (or 4 eagles if you have them) to go war machine hunting - and with two dragons front and centre and true LOS you really want them to go war-machine hunting.

Your core is current 724 points - which 124 points too much. Even with the withering, I don't think you are going to achieve much with the archers. I'd personally drop all of your core units for 24 LSG, FUll Command and 25 Spearment (617 points altogether). There is no need for the banner of eternal flame - with two fire mages and two dragons with flaming breath, anything with regen is going to take a battering anyway. If you really want it, 627 points.

To support these two block, switch Pit of Shades for Okkam's Mindrazor. 24/25 S8, (flaming?) attacks, re-rolling against non-elites is pretty hot. Pit of Shades is too random with the scatter and it allows LOS. Keep withering.

Therefore, you free up some points and get a flanking unit of Swordmasters or you could drop a couple of spearmean to get a White Lion Chariot to support the DPs.

Prince: Lance, DA, Sh, Vambraces, RGOH (Fire), Moon Dragon - 568
Dragon Mage: Lvl 2, Silver Wand, GP, SoM, Sun Dragon - 435
Mage: LV2, Seerstaff: (Withering, Mindrazor) - 165

24 Seaguard, Shields, Spears, Bows, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame - 377
25 Spearmen, Sheilds, Spears, FC - 250

8 Swordmasters/ White Lion Chariot - 120/140
6 dragon princes: Standard, Champ, banner of sorcery, ruby ring of rhuin = 296

4 Eagles (Make them "drakes" for theme) - 200

=2401/2421

(I'd drop the musician form the Spearmen for the extra points personally).

*Slightly NINJA'd by Pyriel, but I think dropping the Dragon Prince/Ruby Ring/Radient Gem takes away from his theme too much

Pyriel
18-08-2011, 10:51
...well, he drops just ONE dragon prince(keeps 5) and still has enough magic and two dragons... isnt it the point of his theme, to include two dragons and a force of dragon princes without lacking much in other elements?... i dunno, different approaches i guess.

EDIT: in my experience, the "monsters have trouble with warmachines" idea is overrated in some few cases: these specific monsters have 12 wounds and Fly, meaning they can engage warmachines in turn 2 themselves (and the enemy infantry blocks' front facing wont face them after they fly past; the foe wont have a legal charge on them). they are also supported in warmachine hunting by the dragon princes and possibly by some crew-killing spells. sure, Hydras WALK, albeit fast, so they are in trouble.

even more, you can have numerous swordmasters. 20 swordmasters is a MUCH bigger threat than 2 dragons. will the warmachines realy focus fire only on the dragons? cause if they do, the unshot-at swordmasters will chop that army into messes.

sure, an army with many warmachines will be a problem. but IN NO WAY is it an autoloss for a dragons force, nor is it common enough to warrant this ammount of worry.

Oberon
18-08-2011, 11:00
@Pyriel: soo, drop everything and take something else? Ok.

Prince: SoM, Darmour, shield, Dragonhelm, vambraces, moon dragon=542
dragonmage: silver wand, guardian phoenix, level 2=420
mage: lv2, seerstaff (pit+withering)=165

30 LSG FC gleaming pennant=420
20 archers musician standard 235

6 DP FC sorcery ruin)305
13 SM musician standard=213

2 great eagle=2x50
==2400
So yeah, more bows, less bolters, more swordmasters, more eagles, less casting dragonriders.

I want to try the seerstaff, as I have a clear mission for the 2 spells I chose. Shadows has only one bad spell in 7 (pendulum) IMO, but I want certain 2 of the 6. I don't have a lion chariot.

EDIT: about warmachines: 1 have 6 eagle models, two of them have riders and I always field at least 2+1 of them, but now I don't have the points for eagle riders. Warmachines can be shot, if I had my RBTs and longbows still... Luckily as I said, there won't be that many machines coming at me. Sadly, even one cannon is enough here.

Oberon
21-08-2011, 15:20
Right, had the game today. It was a Storm of Magic game ( :oops: ), I took a dragon and the dark emissary for my magic&monsters. He had dwarves with thorek, 2 runepriests and GW-horde+longbeards, 2 organ guns, a grudge thrower and Zoat+the dark emissary's counterpart I can't remember the name off. I got to charge, monsters dealt with his machinery but magic phase sucked like it did every turn from then on, dwarves had sooo much DP :D It went both ways at times, then he miscasted his zoat and we both had 1 mage on a fulrcum, draw and I lost on VP. Prince couldn't grind Thorek off and died in four rounds or something, dragon flew away. Dragonmage had a blood forest summoned on him and he died to the hits from that (dragon stood still and breathed away, so in effect I lost the dragon too). Riderless dragon couldn't kill a runesmith in 3 charges.

I'll think about this and try to have a game with normal rules for bit better data gathering opportunities. The list is at least awesome enough for another go...