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The Other
18-08-2011, 14:01
Just a quicky, do dwarf champions gain multiple shots due to their two attacks on the champion, or does this only apply in close combat?

Ramius4
18-08-2011, 14:06
The Attacks on your profile have nothing to do with shooting.

Little Joe
18-08-2011, 14:19
No, the profile is for CC.

But a brace of pistols for your thunderers champion will give him multiple shots(2) and an extra attack in CC.

Yrrdead
18-08-2011, 15:54
No, the profile is for CC.

But a brace of pistols for your thunderers champion will give him multiple shots(2) and an extra attack in CC.

And make thunderer's stand and shoot better.

eron12
18-08-2011, 17:12
No, the profile is for CC.

But a brace of pistols for your thunderers champion will give him multiple shots(2) and an extra attack in CC.

Wait so he'd have 3 attacks in CC?

Yrrdead
18-08-2011, 17:18
Wait so he'd have 3 attacks in CC?

Yes he would.

T10
18-08-2011, 17:51
And make thunderer's stand and shoot better.

How so?

It requires rather wilful misinterpretation of the S&S rules to assume that just because the pistols fire at maximum range, all the habdguns fire at 12".

Yrrdead
18-08-2011, 17:59
How so?

It requires rather willful misinterpretation of the S&S rules to assume that just because the pistols fire at maximum range, all the handguns fire at 12".

To preface I've only played an army that has any shooting within the last few months so my experience with shooting is limited to what I read and what my opponents do.



I don't think it is a willful misinterpretation but you be the judge as I think you are a pretty sharp guy.


STAND AND SHOOT
[...]A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. [...]

Scalebug
18-08-2011, 21:07
Yeah, the pistol range being used for stand and shoot wasn't as clearly spelled out in previous editions, and might have been seen as "wilful misinterpretation" then, but now in 8th ed it is of no doubt.

It is a large part of the point taking pistols for ranged unit champions, but still somewhat of a dubious bonus... most of the time you are getting no use for it.

eron12
19-08-2011, 02:33
It seems pretty clear to me. I too am curious how it could be a wilful misinterpetation.

warplock
19-08-2011, 08:59
It's clear as day!

NTJ2010
19-08-2011, 09:52
Huh, I misread that before, I was under the impression you are always assumed to be in close range for stand and shoot but clearly I have no idea where I got that.

On the other hand pointing out how you can use pistols with the S&S with handguns to put them in closer range is a very good point.

T10
19-08-2011, 13:14
It is clear that the shorter-range weapon benefits, i.e. shots from a 12" range pistol is resolved at that range even if the chargers are 18" away.

However, it does not explicitly state that this faux 12" range also apply to the 24" range handguns in the unit!

Malorian
19-08-2011, 13:21
However, it does not explicitly state that this faux 12" range also apply to the 24" range handguns in the unit!

Usually I agree with everything you saw T10, but in this case when it says "the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon" that rule isn't stated on a model by model basis but rather for the unit declaring a stand and shoot reaction.

So the unit doing the action would shoot, making the assumption that the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon, which happens to be the pistol.

T10
19-08-2011, 13:44
It seems obvious to me that the rules are written with pluralization in order to account for multiple varieties of shooting ranges within the unit, such as two models with pistols and a model with a short bow in a unit of handguns.

Also, the normal shooting rules would have you check range, arc and line of sight for each individual model.

Yrrdead
19-08-2011, 19:03
Under the shooting rules ;


[...]A model can normally only shooot at a target if it lies within the maximum range of the weapon it is hsooting with. The one exception to this is when a unit Stands and Shoot - here we assume that the charging enemy has entered the weapons' range before the unit shoots.

This combined with pg 17 seems pretty indicative of well exactly what pg 17 tells us to do.

Are you saying that you assume the range of the charging unit is the maximum range for every different weapon in the unit? So for pistols and handgunners it would be worked out that the charging unit is fired on by the handgunnners at 24" and by the pistol at 12" ? That seems a bit off to me.

eron12
19-08-2011, 19:43
It seems obvious to me that the rules are written with pluralization in order to account for multiple varieties of shooting ranges within the unit, such as two models with pistols and a model with a short bow in a unit of handguns.

Also, the normal shooting rules would have you check range, arc and line of sight for each individual model.

I can't understand why you are bending words to make it say something different. It doesn't say the shooting is resolved at different distances. It mentions one specific distance (the maximum range of the shortest range unit) and says to use that.

ewar
19-08-2011, 22:27
It's a clever (if a bit cheeky) spot though - bringing all of the handguns to short range is a great little benefit and makes the pistol costs well worth it IMHO.

I'm now trying to think of other units which can benefit from such a thing... but coming up dry. Anyone know of other mixed range shooting units where you can deliberately shorten the range of the S&S reaction?

Yrrdead
19-08-2011, 22:33
Looks like dwarf and empire handgunners, and empire outriders. Other units would require characters with pistols which wouldn't be worth it in almost all cases. Other than maybe a skaven engineer who's point cost might be worth it but the only unit I could think of using him would be with jezzail's which almost every S&S will be short range for them already.

I apologize for the above run on sentence of doom.

T10
20-08-2011, 13:14
I can't understand why you are bending words to make it say something different. It doesn't say the shooting is resolved at different distances. It mentions one specific distance (the maximum range of the shortest range unit) and says to use that.

The rules also start that entire section of the rules with "A Stand&Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range..." And then goes on to detail how this works.

Taken literally, this means that the unit's shorter-range weapons don't get to shoot at all if any of the other models in the unit is within range of the chargers. Seriously: if you want to apply the "shooting is resolved normally..." to the whole unit, you can't simply disregard the above.

Alternatively, if you assume this applies on a model-by-model basis, then you have no problem.

Yrrdead
20-08-2011, 18:06
The rules also start that entire section of the rules with "A Stand&Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range..." And then goes on to detail how this works.

Taken literally, this means that the unit's shorter-range weapons don't get to shoot at all if any of the other models in the unit is within range of the chargers. Seriously: if you want to apply the "shooting is resolved normally..." to the whole unit, you can't simply disregard the above.

Alternatively, if you assume this applies on a model-by-model basis, then you have no problem.

How do you get to that conclusion T10? This is the entire passage you are talking about.


A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off.

This seems very clear and not ambiguous at all. What am I missing?

shelfunit.
20-08-2011, 18:14
The rules also start that entire section of the rules with "A Stand&Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range..." And then goes on to detail how this works.

Taken literally, this means that the unit's shorter-range weapons don't get to shoot at all if any of the other models in the unit is within range of the chargers. Seriously: if you want to apply the "shooting is resolved normally..." to the whole unit, you can't simply disregard the above.

Alternatively, if you assume this applies on a model-by-model basis, then you have no problem.

It implies nothing of the sort. It just says you can opt to make the S&S reaction if the chargers are further away than the maximum range. This in no way contradicts, or competes with the remainder of the rules - which state whatever the case you simply count all the shots as being at the longest range of the shortest ranged weapon.
The rules are very clear and concise on this one.

T10
21-08-2011, 09:31
How do you get to that conclusion T10? This is the entire passage you are talking about.

This seems very clear and not ambiguous at all. What am I missing?

The S&S rules are basically the same as a normal shooting attack as described in the shooting rules. Under those rules the shooting is worked out on a model-by-model basis (some models may have line of sight but be out of range, or have no target models in its forward arc, you get the idea), and any models that can't shoot don't shoot.

If the S&S rules did not make exceptions for enemies starting out of range then we'd see a situations where units with short-range missile weapons rarely got to make S&S charge reactions, simply because the enemy started too far away.

So here comes the exception:

"A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing UNIT's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the sooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon."

(If the enemy starts within range of one or more models in the unit, then it is not "outside the unit's shooting range".)

Sure, you could disregard the first part as separate exception to the shooting rules, one that allows the unit to shoot even if the enemy is out of range. But exactly how is that achieved? I would assume as described in the second part of that section. It seems to me the "dash" there reads "in this case" more easily than "but if just a few models in the unit are out of range".

-T10

Yrrdead
21-08-2011, 19:16
Ahh now I get it. Though I may not agree , it seems a coherent interpretation.