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Da Black Gobbo
19-08-2011, 13:34
Hi guys! seeing the new set of rumored rules that ogres have recently what do you think about them? do you think they playstyle will change? I'm very tempted to start a fatty force, and may build one very slowly.

What units do you think will be seen more? Do you think they will be able to face with ease the top tier armies?

By know i predict units of 6 mournfangs with IF and full command rolling the tables in 2k-2.5ks with blocks of bulls backed by the new furry beast a cannon and some goodies to help the combat. I wish they turn into a steamroller play style army.

What do you think?

Malorian
19-08-2011, 13:36
They are an elite army, becoming more elite, in a world of high strength steadfast hordes backed up by war machines... I seriously don't see them jumping to the top of the standings.

drear
19-08-2011, 13:49
i think , there will be 1-2 very specific builds that work at a competetive level, and then an amazing amount of fun lists.

i think a majority of the ogre kingdoms players will just be happy for new stuff and rules.

the addition of cavalry is very interesting though. the ogres are a fast army anyway, m6 was never somthing to sniff at with a 3 wound str 4 ogre.
but now theres a change to get into combat faster. aswell as not having to reply on trappers or gorgers for our artillery hunting.

i cant see many people taking the hunter mounted on a competetive level. but for fun games, its going to be epic .

i hope tyrants can be an option for our lord, and not a manditory choice.
i want a slaughtermaster a fire breather and a hunter running the show!

speaking of fire magic. thats huge. we can assume ogres keep their low casting value spells, so with fire magic, we have 2 lores that are very easy to cast alot of spells each turn.
every book needs a buff spell tree and a damage spell tree, im glad we get one too.

as with all the new books though, numbers will be the focus. points drops means more money for the company, so i can see the average unit being 8 ogres 4 wide.
and hordes as a main block.

i know ill be using 18+ bulls as my main unit, backed with cavalry and small 6 man units of somthing

Da Black Gobbo
19-08-2011, 13:55
I also see a unit of 12-18 Ogres with BSB to anchor the line, the move and fire str10 grapeshot from the new cannon is brutal! Flaming sword of rhuin, and maybe a spell from the SM that gives regen, a big unit of Regular ogres backed by some guys will be the way to go, adding of course a hammer unit to steamroll a flank.

MORE!

Scammel
19-08-2011, 14:03
I can't imagine the optimum list wouldn't feature Mournfangs, these things are so fast, powerful and good value. I think the best lists may well revolve around one large or two medium units of 'em. The other contender for the book's best unit is Maneaters, probably the Mournfangs' biggest competitors. I think sniper and poison will see some early use until people realise that it's not all that likely to perform the job in question and is only really useful against builds dependent on characters, then you'll start to see more scouting/stubborn/vanguard/swiftstride 'uns.

Asides from those two, the Slaughtermaster and BSB, almost anything goes. The rest of the book ranges from good value to pricey-but-justifiable IMO. Multiple units can fit into the same role, a lot of it is going to come down to personal preference.

ihavetoomuchminis
19-08-2011, 19:20
I agree with Scammel. I think that OK book is going to offer players a vast amount of possible builds, and while internet will recommend only those 2 that are the most competitive ones, the other builds will have odds of achieving victory. I think that one of the great things about this forthcoming book is that many people won't know what to expect of an OK army. They will just know that it'll field ogres, but is it going to field bulls reinforced with magic? Shooting army? Big gribblies? Fast close combat army? Not so fast but more numerous combat army? Combat oriented characters? Magic users? A mix of all? A mix of some builds? I'm seeing an army full of good options, without (or with few) uncompetitive ones.

Lord Inquisitor
19-08-2011, 19:39
I think the army certainly will be more powerful. I don't see anything that'll indicate that a deathstar list won't be the best approach but more appropriately costed core monstrous infantry will help a lot.

I'm seeing deathstar and/or horde with multiple small, hard hitting units like maneater, leadbelchers or mournfangs. I am interested in how viable a very shooty OK will work with many leadbelchers.

So while I think the core tactics won't change too much I think the choices you use for those tactics will be quite varied.

Confessor_Atol
19-08-2011, 20:09
I am excited about the prospect of putting out huge amounts of early pressure.

My first build will be

Vanguarding hunter and cats.

Stonehorn (cause its big)

unit of 4 mornfangs w/if

scouting/swiftstride maneaters

Unit of 15 bull with butcher/SM (4x4)

Unit of 12 IGs with BSB

and whatever I have points left over for (not much I bet)

Really, its a huge amount of fast overwhelming force. Just what an ogre army should be.

If your opponent isn't tabled by turn 3 your in trouble.

The other list I'm interested in would be the Ogre shooting list with 2 cannons, a ton of lead bealchers, and a swamp of gnablars that cause dangerous terrain tests.

Coldblood666
20-08-2011, 06:03
I'm planning on using 3 units of 6 Bulls, a Stonehorn, a big unit of 8 Leadbelchers, and as many Mournfangs I can squeeze in after all that. I definitely want a Tyrant to lead it all and a Firebelly for magic.

Scammel
20-08-2011, 06:27
Let's see, in 2000 points, after the compulsory/virtually-compulsory 1000pts on core and characters, you could fit 2 Ironblasters, a Scraplauncher and 12 Leadbelchers (probably in 2 units of 6), which could be supplemented by the fireballing antics of a Firebelly if you wanted to. Not quite up to the standards of Dwarf and Empire gunlines, but still enough to make many armies actually want to close with you, when you can then smash the remains.

My 2000pt list at the moment stands to be:

Lvl4 SM with FBs and Grut's Sickle

BSB with ToE, HA and IF

Firebelly with Hellheart and GW

8 Ogres with ironfists and full command

6 Ironguts with bellower, standard bearer and SoD

3 Mournfangs with HA, IFs, bellower, standard bearer and Dragonhide

3 Maneaters with stubborn, scouts, HA and AHW

Stonehorn/Thundertusk (haven't decided which one yet, probably the latter)

Barry "the blade"
20-08-2011, 06:41
I'm planning on using 3 units of 6 Bulls, a Stonehorn, a big unit of 8 Leadbelchers, and as many Mournfangs I can squeeze in after all that. I definitely want a Tyrant to lead it all and a Firebelly for magic.

My guess is that the bull units need to be bigger. With initiative 2 you will most often be losing effectiveness before you get to strike. I'm going to start my Bull units out in 8s, plus a character to form up 3x3. With no champ (keeping the hero up front) the unit is only 276. I'm expecting to find that will still need to be bumped up to units going 4x3 tho.

Coldblood666
20-08-2011, 07:02
My guess is that the bull units need to be bigger. With initiative 2 you will most often be losing effectiveness before you get to strike. I'm going to start my Bull units out in 8s, plus a character to form up 3x3. With no champ (keeping the hero up front) the unit is only 276. I'm expecting to find that will still need to be bumped up to units going 4x3 tho.

Yea I might do that. I could buy 1 box of Bulls and add 2 Bulls to all 3 of my existing units.

Da Black Gobbo
20-08-2011, 14:58
I think 12 is a good number, able to get max combat res and enough numbers to stand even some HE elites.

sulla
21-08-2011, 04:07
What units do you think will be seen more? Do you think they will be able to face with ease the top tier armies?

Shouldn't the power level be targetted at the last 2 8th edition army books, rather than the broken comboes of older edition books that haven"t been fixed yet?

Belakor
21-08-2011, 09:36
It should, but the old books are still viable so a comparsion is hard to ignore.

Personally I compare it with TK and O&G.

Gork or Possibly Mork
21-08-2011, 14:00
With the restrictions gone and the list being a ton more flexible i think they will be alot better. I don't think they will be OTT though but balanced like OnG & TK.

Im excited about the variation we seem to have now.

I think some of the more powerful builds will be minus the new gimmicky units and just going character light and taking bull hordes core and maybe gnoblar buses for steadfast or smaller annoyance units.

The fact we can probably fit 3 bullhordes:evilgrin: in now for a little over 1500points sounds very tasty.

snottlebocket
21-08-2011, 17:44
They are an elite army, becoming more elite, in a world of high strength steadfast hordes backed up by war machines... I seriously don't see them jumping to the top of the standings.

Have you used ranked monstrous infantry yet? I've been using medium and large units of trolls and most hordes turn into small gatherings after one or two rounds of combat or so.

And my trolls don't have equipment, armor, characters and impact hits.

Scammel
21-08-2011, 18:58
I personally can't really envision a core-heavy army becoming the creme-de-la-creme of the multitude of lists the book can offer, namely because the two mainstay core units didn't actually get that much better. I've heard a few TK players argue that despite halving in cost, skeletons still aren't worth it because they're still poor troops. This is not at all to say that the Ogre core choices are bad or are still too expensive (I think they're very good value) but an 'old' Ogre army that features a lot of core is still going to have the same problems and won't be significantly elevated by an extra Ogre (or unit of) here and there, Bulls and Ironguts don't get significantly better because more of them are bought, if you see what I'm saying.

snottlebocket
21-08-2011, 21:33
I personally can't really envision a core-heavy army becoming the creme-de-la-creme of the multitude of lists the book can offer, namely because the two mainstay core units didn't actually get that much better. I've heard a few TK players argue that despite halving in cost, skeletons still aren't worth it because they're still poor troops. This is not at all to say that the Ogre core choices are bad or are still too expensive (I think they're very good value) but an 'old' Ogre army that features a lot of core is still going to have the same problems and won't be significantly elevated by an extra Ogre (or unit of) here and there, Bulls and Ironguts don't get significantly better because more of them are bought, if you see what I'm saying.

The 8th already made them a lot better. Supporting attacks pretty much doubled the amount of attacks monstrous infantry can throw out. The new book also improved their impact hits.

When large troll units can pretty much destroy all opposition if they arrive in combat, I have no doubt ogre units can do similar.

warsmith
21-08-2011, 22:12
Do any one get good combo for the hero using big name and magic items?

Kyte
21-08-2011, 23:00
Do any one get good combo for the hero using big name and magic items?

I'll try Sword of striking and Giantbreaker.

As for the actual new rules, being a long time ogre player, I am very excited about the new options, and I think I'll try this list.

Tyrant , Heavy Armour, Ironfist, Giantbreaker, Sword of Striking

Lvl 4 Slaughtermaster, Great Weapon, Dispel Scroll-

Bruiser BSB, Heavy Armour, Great Weapon

Lvl 1 Butcher, Beasts, Hellheart

8 Ironguts, Full Command

6 Bulls, Ironfists, Full Command

4 Mournfangs, Full Command, Great Weapons, Banner of Swiftness - 325

3 Maneaters, Pistols, Scout, ITP

Thundertusk

Ironblaster

Giant

About 2500 points using the rumoured costs.

warsmith
21-08-2011, 23:59
I really want to know do sm and butcher can take magic am and shield.
I want to make the hero have a good amour sv, what is the best am sv ogre can get?

Scammel
22-08-2011, 06:14
The 8th already made them a lot better. Supporting attacks pretty much doubled the amount of attacks monstrous infantry can throw out. The new book also improved their impact hits.

When large troll units can pretty much destroy all opposition if they arrive in combat, I have no doubt ogre units can do similar.

Whilst extra Ogres will make a unit a bit better at what it already does (with the likes of Bulls it's taking down light-medium infantry), it doesn't really help the unit get over any disadvantages. An 18-strong unit of Bulls obviously hits harder than a 12-strong unit, but not enough to allow the unit to take on obstacles it wasn't capable of doing so before, like heavy/elite infantry. Similarly, units that could kill the Ogres before just have to kill a few more of them, the presence of more Ogres in the unit doesn't really make it any harder to destroy. The extra models don't really help the unit overcome it's main disadvantages, namely low WS, I, average Ld and issues with armour - the final unit is only the sum of it's parts.

Gork or Possibly Mork
22-08-2011, 08:44
Whilst extra Ogres will make a unit a bit better at what it already does (with the likes of Bulls it's taking down light-medium infantry), it doesn't really help the unit get over any disadvantages. An 18-strong unit of Bulls obviously hits harder than a 12-strong unit, but not enough to allow the unit to take on obstacles it wasn't capable of doing so before, like heavy/elite infantry. Similarly, units that could kill the Ogres before just have to kill a few more of them, the presence of more Ogres in the unit doesn't really make it any harder to destroy. The extra models don't really help the unit overcome it's main disadvantages, namely low WS, I, average Ld and issues with armour - the final unit is only the sum of it's parts.

( Assuming full strength and not including impact hits or stomps )

Ogre Horde 6 wide
------------------
Vs horde=54 attacks
vs smaller frontage where only 5x3 get to attack=45 attacks
vs smaller frontage where onlt get to attack 4x3=36 attacks
and so on....

12 Ogres 6x2
-------------
Vs horde=36 attacks
vs smaller frontage where only 5x2 get to attack=30 attacks
vs smaller frontage where only 4x2 get to attack=24 attacks
and so on....

12 Ogres 5x2
-------------
Vs horde=30 attacks
vs smaller frontage where only 4x2 get to attack=24 attacks
and so on....

12 Ogres 4x3
-------------
Vs horde=24 attacks
vs smaller frontage where only 4x2 get to attack=24 attacks
and so on....

12 Ogres 3x4
-------------
Vs horde or smaller frontage=18 attacks
and so on....


As you can see the smaller you get the less kills and your playing the steadfast game with expensive ogres when you should be going for kills to melt steadfast and eat thier units like a grill cheese sandwich.

Ogre hordes put out a ton more attacks are less vulnerable to shooting and a more likely to remain combat effective and win combats by peeling ranks off/reducing attacks like there's no tommorow.

Ld shouldn't be much of a problem when you're winning and tightly concentrated.

The problem is steadfast but monstrous hordes handle that quite well. Fairly large sized Stubborn tarpits are another problem but you throw crap ( see gnoblars ) at them or to tarpit or redirect or avoid them with smart deployment, movement and terrain.

Another problem is magic. Now this one can be pretty big, less targets
against intiative of doom spells can hurt pretty bad. It can also hurt
the many smaller units too though especially if you were counting on them
to tip combats, counter charge, flank, etc. It's more likly for a few of the smaller units to get gimped but with the horde your probably down to just the smaller unit if they take a big hit so really it's It's about equal in the end.

Buffs and Hexes on the otherhand are more of a problem. Less to buff or hex but that works both ways since we have less to buff or hex.

Movement could be considered a liability but it's really not a big deal.
Terrain isn't much of a problem and With such a large frontage you aren't that likely to get flanked intially and you more likely to chew through steadfast in no time. With the smaller units attrition is going to hurt badly especially on counter charges they will just melt away.

With that said really i think a mix of hordes and non hordes for more flexibility is best.

However you cannot deny the sheer wrecking force that an ogre horde can be.

N1AK
22-08-2011, 08:50
I'm tempted to start Ogres as a monster heavy army. I've got an army that covers the other common 'types' and I love the new monsters. Will it work as an army? To some extent, I think Ogres will always find certain matches tough and the really effective builds will revolve around a deathstar (sadly).

Vsurma
22-08-2011, 10:51
I really hope the slaughtermaster can be HQ.

The reason ogres have such a hard time currently is the amount of points you HAVE to spend on characters.

Currently you basically have to take a tyrant, bsb bruiser, and 2 mages.

It is just no good to be spending 1100pts in 4 characters that really just don't do that much.

My lizardmen army (an exception granted) pays 500 pts for a slann bsb general all in one. It has higher ld, better magic and only loses a little in CC power but hei 600pts less.

Ogres just aren't THAT great that they could overcome fighting an army 600pts larger, the same holds for many other armies. Empire can spend 500pts on HQ slots and be happy.

Ogres tend to be 1000pts minimum.

snyggejygge
22-08-2011, 12:22
2 mages & a bsb should be enough, if you need a character/monster killer you can kit out a hero for that, no need for a tyrant imo.

Vsurma
22-08-2011, 13:18
2 mages & a bsb should be enough, if you need a character/monster killer you can kit out a hero for that, no need for a tyrant imo.

I agree but you do need a general, can the SM be a general? I don't see anything about it in the rumours.

Scammel
22-08-2011, 14:00
The Slaughtermaster can be the general. With access to all the magical goodies the Tyrant has, he's looking more palatable by the minute. Mine will run the Fencer's Blades and Grut's Sickle. WS10 with a healthy 5 S4 attacks, +6 to cast, often going up to +7, and regaining wounds with 5 out of 6 spells cast? Yes please.

Of course, it could all go horribly wrong with the Sickle, but hey ho I play Ogres.

Vsurma
22-08-2011, 14:56
+6 to cast?

Scammel
22-08-2011, 15:11
Level 4, and Grut's Sickle gives a further +2 at the cost of a single wound on the unit per turn.

Vsurma
22-08-2011, 17:21
That is good news, I don't see myself running a tyrant anymore.
Can you use the sickle after failing a spell like you can currently?

SM, firebelly and bsb is definitely what I will be running.

Scammel
22-08-2011, 17:30
No, the wound is inflicted at the beginning of the phase and from that point on it's +2 to cast on everything, not just a single spell.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2011, 17:41
I'm surprised at how many people are planning to not run a Tyrant. Certainly at low points values it makes sense but at 2500 I can't see any reason not to have both as before.

I'm thinking to try out:

A horde (of bulls probably, with Stubborn character)
A deathstar (3 characters)
4Mournfangs
Rest spent on Leadbelchers or Maneaters.

Not a big unit count but everything hits like a ton of bricks.

The idea of a horde of Leadbelchers is an attractive one too. Form up in two ranks of 9. Eat 18D6 shots each turn, that's an average of 63 BS3 S4 shots. BOOM hur hur hur... When threatened quick reform into Horde formation.

Vsurma
22-08-2011, 18:32
I'm surprised at how many people are planning to not run a Tyrant. Certainly at low points values it makes sense but at 2500 I can't see any reason not to have both as before.

I'm thinking to try out:

A horde (of bulls probably, with Stubborn character)
A deathstar (3 characters)
4Mournfangs
Rest spent on Leadbelchers or Maneaters.

Not a big unit count but everything hits like a ton of bricks.

The idea of a horde of Leadbelchers is an attractive one too. Form up in two ranks of 9. Eat 18D6 shots each turn, that's an average of 63 BS3 S4 shots. BOOM hur hur hur... When threatened quick reform into Horde formation.

Because I think at 2400 pts, I would put money on my 1600pts army + 800 pts characters beating your 1200pts army and 1200pts in characters.

snottlebocket
22-08-2011, 18:34
I'm surprised at how many people are planning to not run a Tyrant. Certainly at low points values it makes sense but at 2500 I can't see any reason not to have both as before.

I'm thinking to try out:

A horde (of bulls probably, with Stubborn character)
A deathstar (3 characters)
4Mournfangs
Rest spent on Leadbelchers or Maneaters.

Not a big unit count but everything hits like a ton of bricks.

The idea of a horde of Leadbelchers is an attractive one too. Form up in two ranks of 9. Eat 18D6 shots each turn, that's an average of 63 BS3 S4 shots. BOOM hur hur hur... When threatened quick reform into Horde formation.

When your entire army is geared towards outputting prodigious amounts of close combat pain, it doesn't make much sense to pay points for a bit more close combat pain.

Makes a lot more sense to spend points on something that isn't so common in the army.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2011, 18:42
Many people have thought that in the past and lie crushed at the feet of my deathstar. Memorable moments include my deathstar being charged in the front by a fully ranked unit of plaguebearers and in the flank by six fiends of slaanesh and winning combat by 19.

It may not be the most fun or most tactically rewarding style of play, but it is effective. I don't find Ogres can deal out that much close combat pain and they certainly can't take it in return. When up against dedicated combat units like bloodletters or frenzied chaos warriors, the ogres just can't take that kind of punishment. Only the characters can really stand up to them.

We shall see how the new book changes things but I've found the optimum proportion of characters with Ogre Kingdoms in the current book is around 50% of the total points. And I've won 3 out of the last 4 tournaments I've attended with Ogres, so it's working for me.

The new book may change things... but I don't think it will.

Scammel
22-08-2011, 18:49
I don't find Ogres can deal out that much close combat pain and they certainly can't take it in return.

I'd agree with the current book and indeed much of the new one - but Mournfangs buck that trend.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2011, 19:15
I'm very happy to add Mournfangs for the points I save on my deathstar. :evilgrin:

Vsurma
22-08-2011, 19:41
Many people have thought that in the past and lie crushed at the feet of my deathstar. Memorable moments include my deathstar being charged in the front by a fully ranked unit of plaguebearers and in the flank by six fiends of slaanesh and winning combat by 19.

It may not be the most fun or most tactically rewarding style of play, but it is effective. I don't find Ogres can deal out that much close combat pain and they certainly can't take it in return. When up against dedicated combat units like bloodletters or frenzied chaos warriors, the ogres just can't take that kind of punishment. Only the characters can really stand up to them.

We shall see how the new book changes things but I've found the optimum proportion of characters with Ogre Kingdoms in the current book is around 50% of the total points. And I've won 3 out of the last 4 tournaments I've attended with Ogres, so it's working for me.

The new book may change things... but I don't think it will.

Deathstars work a lot of the time and then don't a lot of the time. People that like consistancy aren't as likely to go with the deathstar approach.

The problem I find at least in tournaments is that the lore of shadow is just SO damn prevailant, its probably the MOST common lore you will run into at a tourmanet and it is the worst thing to come up against if your running a deathstar.

Pitt of shades will drop a lot of ogres and with the number of characters in the unit there is also a fair chance that you fail one of your look out sir rolls at some point.

Then when you finally get into combat as you so desperatly want to, the enemy can cast mindrazor and wipe out your deathstar BEFORE you get to strike! (though the new dragonhide banner in the new book that gave asl to the enemy will greatly help vs all but HE, might have to combo it with potion of speed )

The lore basically lets any unit with an ok init stat to destroy your deathstar. If the lore didn't come with pitt of shades it would be fine as there was only 1 killer spell you had to save your scroll for but unfortunately it just doesn't work that way.

Even the S or T buff and debuffs are incredibly strong against this unit. With the new power of spells, basically any spell that effects the unit will have a huge impact.

After a few tournies with Ogres I really don't want to run a deathstar anymore. I felt it was the only viable option earlier but if I can avoid it with the new book I will.

On a side note the lores ogres can take don't seem that great.

Beasts is for an army with lots of characters, ogres do sort of fit the bill but I feel it works better in an army with lots of cheap characters but I would say the lore has a chance, you will have 3 characters for sure so its ok though I wouldn't say great.

Death works better if you have a high ld caster but it seems again like an ok lore.

Heavens well... Pretty much tied with fire as the worst lore but it might not be so bad with ogres. IGs with rerolls of 1s would be nice no doubt. If you are running a deathstar chances are your front rank is T5-6 so the hex to make the enemy reroll 6s might be better than normally one would expect.

Still I would much rather be running shadow/light/life etc.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2011, 19:47
The new book still has the Rune Maw, it'll still make that unit all but immune to magic. :D

Mindrazor is a pain but can be dealt with. We shall see when the new book but I suspect with some modification the deathstar tactic will still be a top build. Of course, it's certainly nice to try out something different too!

As for the new Lores we'll see... the requirement to take a Gut cook and the attractiveness of the fire belly for the flaming breath weapon means I'll be up to 3 cooks to get another Lore.

Death looks largely useless for ogres, beasts and heavens have some potential.

Vsurma
22-08-2011, 20:00
It doesn't work on pitt of shades or mindrazor though does it? Neither directly targets the unit itself.

That said if people do want to run deathstars (read in booming voice), I think they will be MORE POWERFUL THAN EVER BEFORE! (had to use caps there)

A unit of maneaters with swiftstride, stubborn? and the magic banner of +1M speed.

You now have M7 swiftstriders and maneaters have an extra attack to boot in their profile. Muhhahahaaa S7 with GW etc...

Barry "the blade"
22-08-2011, 20:02
I like at least have all the choices of three lores. I can see taking a level 1 with beasts just for wildform being a nice possibility. Maybe even give him the forbidden rod, which is a much safer choice for ogre casters.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2011, 20:05
Pit targets the unit so it works. Are you thinking of Purple Sun? Psun just isn't that bad for a deathstar... at least, one purple sun isn't that bad. Sure you'll lose most of your unit, but the characters will all get Look out Sir.

Mindrazor is indeed a complete pest.

Maneaters are an interesting choice for a unit-o-doom. They're so expensive though and no tougher than normal ironguts. We'll see what combos we can make with them.

I'm still chuckling about my 18 leadbelcher unit. I'm so going to do this, although I fear I'll be proxying for a while. Whoever thought we'd ever want 18 leadbelcher models? :eek:

Vsurma
22-08-2011, 20:12
Its a vortex, don't they target an area rather than a unit? you don't have to target a unit like most other spells, you can place it on open ground if you so wish.

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2011, 20:16
Wait what are we talking about here? Yes, Rune Maw doesn't protect against vortices. Pit isn't one. But vortices allow look out sir rolls, which means the core of the deathstar (i.e. the characters) is safe, at least until you get down to less than 3 rank and file.

Mindrazor is the only uberspell that really threatens my deathstar.

Tzeentch Lover
22-08-2011, 20:44
Mindrazor is the only uberspell that really threatens my deathstar.

So you run your Deathstar toward that wizard and go, "Hellheart, suckah!"

I'm really excited about the new Hellheart and I hope you can use it after your opponent rolls for his number of Power Dice. Considering that all but one of the miscasts loses you d6 PD, catching 2 or 3 enemy wizards with the Hellheart could effectively skip your opponent's Magic Phase as well as cause some serious damage.

Skarsnik, the Lord
22-08-2011, 21:34
No, the wound is inflicted at the beginning of the phase and from that point on it's +2 to cast on everything, not just a single spell.

*spills out the coffee*

What... How much does the new Grut's Sickle cost? That sounds epic! :eek:

As the Tyrant cannot take the Tenderizer nor the Thundermace anymore (the latter is so bad in the new book I will never take it anymore) I guess his days are over. The Slaughtermaster is very tough with the Fencer's Blades (I've always given him the Fencer's Blades, and so I will do in the new book) and a good caster with the Grut's Sickle. I think I'm going to use him as a general, and take a BSB and a Firebelly. The BSB is a must for every army, and the Firebelly is a very useful for taking out regeneration. I think I'm going to stick my Slaughtermaster and Firebelly in a unit of Ironguts with the Standard of Disciple - they won't need the flaming banner because of the Firebelly striking first with his I2, and the healthy Ld9 is good to be there because of the loss of the Tyrant. I'm thinking of giving the Firebelly the Potion of Speed so he could go with the Bulls, but I guess the Ironguts can do the fight against the regenerating things better overall so it's not necessary. I'm not sure about the equipment of the BSB, maybe a Talisman of Preservation or Glittering Scales, he'll do fine with his great weapon.

About the magic... A Slaughtermaster with the Gut lore is a solid choice IMO. If I'd take a support Butcher, he'd definitely take the Lore of Beasts with the Wyssan's Wildform - it's sooo good spell. The Firebelly is good to have, as many of the spells in the Lore of Fire are quite good - some of them are even great. Even casting a lowly Fireball against the enemy and then throwing the big maw spell in sounds awesome against regenerating things.

The Bulls are great with the iron fists. It's nice they got cheaper AND got some armor on them. The Ironguts are still there, slightly cheaper, which is always good. The Gnoblars got a bit more expensive, but I think they're great because of their low unit size requirement - spamming units of 10 Gnoblars will be fun! :D

The Leadbelchers got lot better than before, but I guess I'm still going to leave them home - D6 shots per model is a bit salty IMO. The Mournfang cavalry with a Banner of +1 movement sounds good, and the Maneaters too. I'm still not sure about the Maneaters' special rules and such but the poison and the sniper are famous at the moment. I like the new Sabertusks - units of one cat with so low price is great, me likes. Yheties are still a bit meh IMO.

Finally the rare choices. I'm not sure about the Scrappies, but the Ironblaster sounds fun, I'll take at least one. The new monsters are interesting, but I guess they'll be just like the Arachnarock Spider - looks good and such, but isn't special in game terms.

Overall, I like changes. The loss of the Bignames (well, they're still there, but they are not too good) and the Tyrant are shame but all the new things will make it interesting. Looks quite promising to me. :)

- Cheers, Skarsnik. :yes:

Da Black Gobbo
22-08-2011, 21:49
That grut's sicke sound pretty neat if we take into acount the bloodgruel lore rule that make us regain a wound on a 2+ and +1 for the next spell, W5 with that item means self inflicting a would for a +6 to cast, cast the spell regain a wound and get a +7 for the next spell. That's some nice sinergy right there.

EnternalVoid
22-08-2011, 21:54
Its a vortex, don't they target an area rather than a unit? you don't have to target a unit like most other spells, you can place it on open ground if you so wish.

Pit of Shades is not a vortex, it is a direct damage spell with a template, so it does have to a target. Learned that mistake myself once, hate finding out I cheated an opponent even if it was just we both mistook the rule.

EnternalVoid
22-08-2011, 22:25
Like many I am questioning have a Tyrant in my lists, but at higher points there is a good chance. With T5 and 5W he is not soft by any account, and as already pointed out, if you give him Giantbreaker and a 25pt magic weapon, heavy armor, and a ironfist, he is pretty cheap for added damage output.

That said, I am thinking a Slaughtermaster, bsb, and Firebelly will be my 3 heroes for the moment. As for the core of my army, that is in more debate. I am going to have to review and crunch numbers before I make any final call on it. In 7th ed I took units of 4 generally, as the second rank was not important and 4 was what I could get into base to base with 5 20mm infantry units. My group hated my units of 4 Ironguts with Standards, as they had pretty good chance of winning on the charge turn for only 212pt. In 8th ed my lists varied as I tested the water when I played them. I had started to use more normal bulls as they were cheap enough to get some numbers and with the ogre club rule stil fairly effective. The added armor to bulls will be nice but the lost of ogre clubs will be missed. Going to have to crunch numbers to find what I like with the new book.

I will likely be taking Leadbelchers again too. I always wanted to like them, and often did include 2 in my list to blow away small fast cav units in 7th ed, and in 8th ed to blow away mangler squigs and the like. Now they might not get as many shots but they are cheaper and more reliable *I generally killed at least one of my own ogres when I used them*. Might consider a unit of 4 in a 2x2 block for flanking. The added range is not bad either, even with the -1 for long range. Still primarily to take out small units and pick a couple guys off key blocks to reduce ranks. Sometimes you just have to deal with things outside of combat, and if they know this they might stunt any magic attempt to solve it.

Mournfangs, still trying to decide between GW or IF. With IF they seem to have a 2+ armor save. That is nice. But with only S4, even if they have 7 attacks like the rumors say, and no armor piercing or anything... They just might not have enough damage output for me in second rounds of combat or if they are charged. Again a number crunch once the book is actually out and I have it in hand to examine everything.

warsmith
23-08-2011, 00:15
So, u willing to use 3+as mournfangs with GW or take both GW and IF for a very expensive pts for that T4 3W cav? I prefer only using IF dor mournfangs.

warsmith
23-08-2011, 00:36
Level 4, and Grut's Sickle gives a further +2 at the cost of a single wound on the unit per turn.

if the mage is single out, can he take himself a W for this +2 to cast, and what is the pts of the Grut's sickle?

Coldblood666
23-08-2011, 01:04
Are Mournfang units 2+? Or maybe 1+ like Bloodcrushers?

Scammel
23-08-2011, 06:12
The Sickle can only be used when the wielder joins another unit and the wounds it causes are only inflicted on the unit. It's not that cheap, but I think it's justifiable considering what it does - it's 25 Gnoblars. The downside to it is, apart from the wounds, you have to roll 2D6 at the end of each of your magic phases after you used the Sickle. On a double 1 the wielder has been lynched and is dead with no saves allowed.

undeadcatd
23-08-2011, 06:46
"the wielder has been lynched and is dead with no saves allowed"

thanks ! Bye sickle , hello scroll.

Barry "the blade"
23-08-2011, 07:10
"the wielder has been lynched and is dead with no saves allowed"

thanks ! Bye sickle , hello scroll.

If its 50pts or less maybe I'll try it on a level 2 butcher. Would be nice to have 2 casters with +4.

warsmith
23-08-2011, 08:13
The Sickle can only be used when the wielder joins another unit and the wounds it causes are only inflicted on the unit. It's not that cheap, but I think it's justifiable considering what it does - it's 25 Gnoblars. The downside to it is, apart from the wounds, you have to roll 2D6 at the end of each of your magic phases after you used the Sickle. On a double 1 the wielder has been lynched and is dead with no saves allowed.

Oh my god, DOC can do it for 70pts with no additional effect. And u only have four spells, seem not good. And Scammel would u pls confirm can SM talk IF n magical amour

Scammel
23-08-2011, 08:30
SMs and Butchers can take IFs, thus giving them access to magic armour.

Barry "the blade"
23-08-2011, 08:34
SMs and Butchers can take IFs, thus giving them access to magic armour.

Wow. I did not expect that at all. I thought it was all just wishful thinking. The SM will definitely be the lord of choice.

ihavetoomuchminis
23-08-2011, 09:40
I agree. The option to make a caster lord who will be quite competent in close combat is great. I can't see me fielding a Tyrant but for fluff reasons. I remember reading that the OK casters can be equipped with GW. So... Slaughtermaster for the win. I find the Great Maw lore quite useful for the ogres, and quite needed. The augment spells can make a single bull unit act as a bulldozer.