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Lukasz_VT
19-08-2011, 23:50
With a new book just two weeks away, and most of the delicious beans having already been spilled, let's cook up some fresh tactical discussion with all the juicy morsels now at our disposal :D

Old thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264105&page=16)

Rumour thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313986)

With the restriction of having a Tyrant before getting a Slaughtermaster removed, I am considering the SM as the general. The Tyrant adds punch to an army that already has tons of punch, whereas having a lvl4 and lots of buffs has always served me well. The low leadership is a worry, so his unit will need the standard of discipline (+1 Ld).

I will therefore either take ironguts or put the banner a BSB in the unit. Bulls seem to have got a lot better, gaining a 5+ save and 6+ parry and dropping 3 points, whereas ironguts are still pretty meh for the points. Which unit I take will depend on how one can outfit the BSB. Previously, I would not have left home without runemaw on my ironguts, but with the changes to that banner making it considerably worse, I won't be taking it (and the price hike may mean they can't anyway).

The access to more lores of magic opens up a lot of possibilities, but at the moment I am thinking of taking the SM, a BSB and a firebelly, meaning the SM has to take lore of the great maw, which I hope is passable!

I feel completely spoiled for choice on what else to fit in the army, as everything (even yhettis) seem like they have something useful to offer. What a wonderfully different situation that is from now :D

Coldblood666
20-08-2011, 01:18
I plan on using a Tyrant. Leadership 9 is way too valuable in the Ogre army to pass up. I also don't plan on using Ironguts, they are too many pts and I'd rather have Bulls with iron fists.

Coldblood666
20-08-2011, 01:23
I've been thinking and I don't think I'll be using a standard with my Mournfang unit, because if it flees from combat then it dies automatically and it just seems like such a waste. And for what? +1 combat resolution? These guys already hand out enough kills.

Lukasz_VT
20-08-2011, 01:49
I plan on using a Tyrant. Leadership 9 is way too valuable in the Ogre army to pass up. I also don't plan on using Ironguts, they are too many pts and I'd rather have Bulls with iron fists.

I agree that Ld9 is a must. Hence the standard of discipline! Perhaps I will keep my Tyrant in, but he'll need to be cheap with the SMs 85 point boost :(

EnternalVoid
20-08-2011, 09:01
I would not sell Ironguts short yet. They still have a few things going for them if they remain relatively unchanged. First is Base leadership 8 and access to a magic standard. Meaning if you are taking the Slaughtermaster you can put him in with the Ironguts and give them the Standard Of Displine for the decent Leadership. Heck even if you take a Tyrant that could mean Ld10. Or you can give them the Banner of Eternal Flame to allow them to hunt Regenerating monsters.

Also with access to the Lore of Fire Flaming Sword can be kind of fun on them. With S6 they are pretty much Auto wounding any unit out there.

That said as they are 11 points more than a Bull with an ironfist I doubt more than one unit of Ironguts might be needed in most lists, and in some Maneaters will fulfill your needs. But for the points they are still not horrible, namely if you need to break heavy armor with out using maneaters. Losing Ogre clubs will hurt normal ogres in that regard.

As for a Standard for the Mournfangs it depends on the role they are to be taking in the list. From what I heard from some of the rumors they might be able to take a magic standard, might be worth considering a standard for that depending on what you are trying to use the Mournfangs for. The Banner of Eternal flame could make them monster hunters and the +1M standard could help get charges or flank. That said, there will be plenty of times where you will not need a magic standard, at which point I doubt you will need a standard at all.

pauduro
20-08-2011, 09:08
A unit of 6-8 Ironguts can be good just to be a nice in between Bulls and Manaters just to be a scare tactic ;)

vinny t
20-08-2011, 21:15
I think a unit of 8 scouting swiftstride maneaters with the dragonhide banner will be pretty killer. Combine that with one unit of 12 Bulls, one unit of 10 Ironguts, and two units of 4 Leadbelchers and that will be a solid base for a list.

Barry "the blade"
22-08-2011, 04:55
Based on what we know now what will your plan be for the watch tower scenario?

I'm not sure where to begin for this.

Lukasz_VT
23-08-2011, 10:06
I think a unit of 8 scouting swiftstride maneaters with the dragonhide banner will be pretty killer. Combine that with one unit of 12 Bulls, one unit of 10 Ironguts, and two units of 4 Leadbelchers and that will be a solid base for a list.

That does sound pretty nasty! It is excellent that we have lots of options now.


Based on what we know now what will your plan be for the watch tower scenario?

I'm not sure where to begin for this.

Gnoblars are the only unit that can go in it, but with 20 of them and some trappers, they could be pretty good. Every time the opponent charges the watchtower, they will take DT tests on everyone in their unit - and of course they have to charge repeatedly! Whilst the gnoblars hold them up, we smash things aside with our ogre blocks.

RTGamer
23-08-2011, 15:29
I'd get an Ogre block into the Tower as Quickly as possible. Leadbelchers?

Scammel
23-08-2011, 15:55
If you knew the Watchtower was going to come up in, say, a tourney, you could consider the Siegebreaker. D6 hits at a S equal to the height of the building in inches - does anyone know how high the GW watchtower is?

stashman
23-08-2011, 21:05
I've been thinking and I don't think I'll be using a standard with my Mournfang unit, because if it flees from combat then it dies automatically and it just seems like such a waste. And for what? +1 combat resolution? These guys already hand out enough kills.

Gives an extra fortitude points in Blood and Glory

stashman
24-08-2011, 00:29
Based on what we know now what will your plan be for the watch tower scenario?

I'm not sure where to begin for this.

Scouting Maneaters in front of watch tower, just enter in turn 1. Easy!

stashman
24-08-2011, 00:37
Great Maw magic is really nerfed! I think it will take a couple of games for many ogre players to adapt to the new spellcasting, only having spells cast once, not as now cast multiple times each phase.

My ogre opponent boost his units from turn 1 with multiple +T, +S and Regeneration, now only one unit with boost.

Lukasz_VT
24-08-2011, 01:43
Great Maw magic is really nerfed! I think it will take a couple of games for many ogre players to adapt to the new spellcasting, only having spells cast once, not as now cast multiple times each phase.

My ogre opponent boost his units from turn 1 with multiple +T, +S and Regeneration, now only one unit with boost.

By the sounds of things, the spells can now be boosted to augment units with 12". I often found my RIP spells were dispelled in the opponents magic phase. Although this used their power dice up, it did take away my ogres only protection. So I'm glad we now have augments! And they won't hurt us! You could also have a level 1 with beasts to cast wildform on a unit in addition to gut magic buffs.

Gaargod
02-09-2011, 03:00
Ironblasters are worth their weight in gold. And costing they're only 170pts, they cost distinctly less than that.

I can see 2 being a pretty much mandatory choice. Its still only 340pts to take them, and for that you get 2 cannons with a much better bounce, a stupidly good grapeshot (seriously, S10 grapeshot. Do the devs have literally any idea how grapeshot works, at all?) and are rather passable in combat. Combine them with maneaters + flaming banner + pistols for a very reliable combo to down regenerating monsters of doom.


Another very attractive choice I can see is the Firebelly - just for his breath weapon, if nothing else. A friend of mine plans to give him a potion of speed, just to really annoy regenerating units - he goes first with I5, then the ogres will ignore their regen. Obviously if he's in a unit with GW, don't need the potion of speed.

Barry "the blade"
02-09-2011, 04:22
Ironblasters are worth their weight in gold. And costing they're only 170pts, they cost distinctly less than that.

I can see 2 being a pretty much mandatory choice. Its still only 340pts to take them, and for that you get 2 cannons with a much better bounce, a stupidly good grapeshot (seriously, S10 grapeshot. Do the devs have literally any idea how grapeshot works, at all?) and are rather passable in combat. Combine them with maneaters + flaming banner + pistols for a very reliable combo to down regenerating monsters of doom.


Another very attractive choice I can see is the Firebelly - just for his breath weapon, if nothing else. A friend of mine plans to give him a potion of speed, just to really annoy regenerating units - he goes first with I5, then the ogres will ignore their regen. Obviously if he's in a unit with GW, don't need the potion of speed.

I don't have a BRB at hand, but isn't grapeshot just an artillery die worth of shots that still need to roll to hit?

As far as the Firebelly with potion of speed, I like the idea. Really though the fact that ogres can't be thunderstomped makes monsters like the hydra/Hellpit A-bomb already less effective. I don't think those will be the things that ruin an OK general's day.

drear
02-09-2011, 09:56
nice to see a tactics thread popping up ^^

im thinking bulls will be the winners in this book. cheaper, armoured and an amazing bullcharge rule.

running 4 wide by 3 deep per unit. thats a possibility of 12 impact hits at str 6 . then your hitting with 24 str 4 attacks at minimum!

add in AHW and those are killy units!

im thinking 2 units of 12 bulls with AHW, 6 maneaters scouting,itp, SM, bsb and a firebelly. 10 trappers a srappy and a cannon. for 2k

the scrap laucnhers seems to have been untouched by the update so its a killing blow cheap wonderous thing.
and now the cannon is in there too. i need to read up on grape shot !

looking at the WD battle report, leadbeltchers gained ALOT of range on their guns, looks like they shoot around 24-30 inches. judging by the images from that battle report.

Eddie Chaos
02-09-2011, 11:23
I think ill be running big units of bulls with Ironfists (2X12), mornfangs and a thundertusk

Bruiser on a magic carpet anyone?

Far2Casual
02-09-2011, 11:33
I'm considering a Slaughtermaster with the Forbidden Rod and Lore of the Great Maw.

At crucial times, when you roll snake eyes for Magic, use the Rod and take the D3 wounds, but then play with 5-6 power dices average against your opponent only dispell dice, and heal your wounds back by casting spells.

Gaargod
02-09-2011, 13:22
Bruiser on a magic carpet anyone?

I'm lost, why a carpet? A bruiser on it can take no other magic items - thus is restricted to, at least, a 4+ armour save. Ok, he's still hitty and T5, but I foresee him turning into a pincushion the first time he flies out.


Scrap launchers are now down to a small blast template, as opposed to large. They got cheaper, but its not nearly as effective.


Leadbelchers are indeed 24" range, but do suffer from long range. Still a large bonus.

Eddie Chaos
02-09-2011, 13:50
I realise it would be silly to stick a bruiser on a carpet but I guess he could take out war machines and the like

Da Black Gobbo
02-09-2011, 14:17
How do you guys see the gorger? worth it? i took a look at the book yesterday but didn't see the points cost of it, anyone?

ogresrdabest
02-09-2011, 14:26
I think the lore of the great maw is going to be really good this edition. With a slaughtermaster having a potential +7 to cast or many dice for a turn from the forbidden rod then you can really buff your units when needed (ie: the crucial turn when the majority of your units are charging/ getting charged next turn.

I think that all in all the fact your opponent cant just dispel your buffs in his magic phase could really hurt his army.

On a side note Hellheart is going to be awesome, if you affect two enemy wizards then you are pretty much ending their magic phase. They are very likely to lose 2D6 dice and you'll have around 5-7 dice to play with for dispelling.

Lunchmoney
02-09-2011, 14:43
How do you guys see the gorger? worth it? i took a look at the book yesterday but didn't see the points cost of it, anyone?

I can see a gorger doing well as a points filler given there relatively cheap cost. Other than that though, considering the units that are available in the special slot now, I don't know if I will field them too often. I'm having a hard enough time balancing leaddies, Mfangs, and man-eaters while still fielding enough units to avoid being too small of a force. (by small I mean I'm hesitant to field a 3k list with only six units.

drear
02-09-2011, 14:50
i just cant see where a gorger fits now, outside of a skragg list.

so last book we used a gorger for warmachine hunting turn 2 onwards, and then harassing stuff.
but it has apprently gone up in price by 20 or so points.
so why take a gorger when you could have 2 maneaters scout and poison their way into the warmachines. for cheaper?

that being said, you might want scout and poison on a bigger unit of maneaters elesewhere, and so theres the gorgers place opened up.

though, if trappers are still the same type of unit , id always take them over a gorger. as turning up turn 2 and standing there waiting to be shot..isnt fun

the hell heart looks deadly, for a turn 2 use. as movement 6 means we're guaranteed to be in their lines by turn 2. and can focus on being very near the level 4 when we get it off, so on 5d6 we're definitly in range.

isotope99
02-09-2011, 15:09
What does anyone think about Hellheart vs Dispel scroll and can a firebelly take it as I'll want him closer to use his breath weapon anyway?

I want some anti magic in my force but won't have many points to play with on magic items. I haven't got the book yet (in the post :cries:) so can't compare relative points costs.

John Wayne II
02-09-2011, 16:13
so last book we used a gorger for warmachine hunting turn 2 onwards, and then harassing stuff.
but it has apprently gone up in price by 20 or so points.
so why take a gorger when you could have 2 maneaters scout and poison their way into the warmachines. for cheaper?

I think Gorgers went up by 15 points or so. And Maneaters have a minimum unit size of 3 IIRC, so that ME unit would be considerably more expensive than a Gorger, and that's before you factor in any weapon upgrades.



though, if trappers are still the same type of unit , id always take them over a gorger. as turning up turn 2 and standing there waiting to be shot..isnt fun.

The last book's Trappers are gone; instead, they are an upgrade for regular Gnoblars that makes any enemy who charges the Gnob unit take dangerous terrain tests.

ogresrdabest
02-09-2011, 16:22
I also cant see how gorgers are going to be useful in the new book, dont get me wrong i love using my gorgers currently but i think stuff like ironblasters can kill the war machines with a cannonball. They could be useful to harass units but from experience they die too easily to shooting to justify the 90 points.

Skinks are the biggest pain ever

drear
02-09-2011, 16:39
ah thanks john wayne, i hadnt seen the new trapper rule.
well that sucks ): i had my trappers all ready to go.

now i have to take a bigger unit if i want them to be at all useful..
maybe 10 infront of my scrap laucnher to de-ter charges instead ..hm

Von Wibble
02-09-2011, 16:46
Wouldn't a unit of 20 gnoblars with trapper upgrade be a good idea? A cheap unit that kills 1/6 of any unit charging it - 2 of these would be ideal against anyone who likes their hordes.

It strikes me that Ogres benefit a lot from charging the enemy. How do you counter an army like bretonnians with their faster knights, and tomb kings with their chariots?

Malorian
02-09-2011, 16:46
ah thanks john wayne, i hadnt seen the new trapper rule.
well that sucks ): i had my trappers all ready to go.

now i have to take a bigger unit if i want them to be at all useful..
maybe 10 infront of my scrap laucnher to de-ter charges instead ..hm

Dangerous terrain tests won't be keeping anyone away.

Da Black Gobbo
02-09-2011, 16:48
I think a unit of 30 in a 15x2 in front of your artillery is a pretty good idea, they charge they have to face lots of dangerous terrain tests+shooting sharp stuff. Not much but something.

drear
02-09-2011, 16:51
hmm that might be damn useful then ^^
minimum unit size 20 so ..75 points with trappers .
thats an extra maneater. but then stopping a charge or eating 100+ points worth of unit will be damn worth it.

stand and shoot aswell!

Mercules
02-09-2011, 16:52
It strikes me that Ogres benefit a lot from charging the enemy. How do you counter an army like bretonnians with their faster knights, and tomb kings with their chariots?

21 point Sabertusk. Stick it in the way of the unit at an odd angle so they don't have an Overrun path into anything good and move into charge range. Their choices are:

1. Stand there or try to move around the tusk.
2. Charge the tusk, kill it, reform from combat to face your now ready to charge them unit and go a total of 1-2"s

Mercules
02-09-2011, 16:53
hmm that might be damn useful then ^^
minimum unit size 20 so ..75 points with trappers .
thats an extra maneater. but then stopping a charge or eating 100+ points worth of unit will be damn worth it.

stand and shoot aswell!

Min unit size is now 10. Gnoblar Speedbump is as expensive as an HE Eagle.

BrotherNefarius
02-09-2011, 17:05
i am not an ogre player, never even played against them... but from what i can see...

Gnoblars seems to be you steadfast counter. Get them 5 wide and many deep and deny steadfast.

Gorgers go well with gnoblars. They should be really good flankers. Engage a unit with gnoblars, get a gorger on the flank. Best case scenario, gorger gives you the kills the gnoblars can't, but the gnoblars, if deep enough, deny steadfast. Worst case scenario, gnoblars get mauled, gorger rolls bad... outcome? Gnoblars should be steadfast due to ranks, and gorger is unbreakable, so better luck next turn!

Malorian
02-09-2011, 17:13
Gorgers are not the way to rack up kills...

Most likely the gorger would die before you beat the unit.

Mercules
02-09-2011, 17:13
i am not an ogre player, never even played against them... but from what i can see...

Gnoblars seems to be you steadfast counter. Get them 5 wide and many deep and deny steadfast.

No, our Steadfast Counter is simply killing enough models they are no longer Steadfast. It works pretty well too.

You stick 60 Gnoblars into a unit in the front and you will end up with a unit that isn't loosing combat. It will grind down the Gnoblars fairly quick depending on what it is. This is just not reliable. Gnoblars into a flank is a different thing but it takes a bit to get them there so it's not easy to count on.

Gooner
02-09-2011, 17:58
I'll be taking a few units of 20 gnobs with trappers. Thy are cheap enough and have multiple uses.

I think Drag hide needs to go on mournfangs to make sure they win combat. What do people think of for weapons? I'm thinking great weapOns to kill as much as possible and still have a 3 + save.

Mercules
02-09-2011, 18:53
I think Drag hide needs to go on mournfangs to make sure they win combat. What do people think of for weapons? I'm thinking great weapOns to kill as much as possible and still have a 3 + save.

I'm thinking Ironfist for the 2+ AS and 6+ PARRY that works for mounted Ogres. ;)

ashc
02-09-2011, 18:54
Yes, seems the best option. They dont need the extra high str.

Malorian
02-09-2011, 18:54
I would rather go with the great wepaon.

You are taking mournfangs for the killing power, so make them killy! ;)

Mercules
02-09-2011, 19:08
I would rather go with the great wepaon.

You are taking mournfangs for the killing power, so make them killy! ;)

Actually I would be taking them so that around 300 points for the unit I could have 4d3 S5 Impact Hits followed by 16 S5 attacks and 12 S4 attacks... and still have a 2+ armor save with a 6+ parry. After all, a dead Mournfang is not killy at all.

Lunchmoney
02-09-2011, 19:16
My only concern with using the dragonhide on Mfangs is that is even more points tied up in a glass cannon type unit. I don't see the point of ever using groups of Mfangs larger than four models. Sure they hit hard with a much better save than regular Ogres, but it's still only four Ogres worth of resilience (toughness and wounds wise) I would think the ddragonhide would be better for a big block of Ogres or even a smaller group of maneaters. The man eaters are the ones who are going to need more killing power than the Mfangs methinks. Though to be fair, I still am having trouble seeing different rolls for man-eaters vs Mfangs. With my playstyle they will both serve the roll as hard hitting flankers. (though man-eaters win out on being able to potentially break steadfast with ranks, assuming they are ignored haha)

ogresrdabest
02-09-2011, 20:39
I agree with Mercules in that an iron fist is better, they are already really killy and with toughness 4 and 3 wounds for 60 points a 2+ save would really help them, combine this with the dragonhide banner and the unit is ridiculously killy on the charge and re-rolls 1s for armour saves.

If you are fighting anything strength 3 or 4 your unit will steamroller over them... hopefully:)

Mercules
02-09-2011, 21:11
And Parry! Dang it the only thing that can have a Mounted Parry save (so far) and I'll be damned if I pass up my chance to thumb my nose at Empire and Elven knights. :)

Von Wibble
02-09-2011, 21:26
21 point Sabertusk. Stick it in the way of the unit at an odd angle so they don't have an Overrun path into anything good and move into charge range. Their choices are:

1. Stand there or try to move around the tusk.
2. Charge the tusk, kill it, reform from combat to face your now ready to charge them unit and go a total of 1-2"s

I thought if you charged single models they aligned to you rather than the other way round? I could be wrong, and even if it is the case just make it 2 sabretusks oc, and I absolutely agree its the correct tactic. The only counter the shock unit player has is to shoot the sabertusk first, but you can have 2 or 3 "units" of them.

Thornz
02-09-2011, 22:09
I have played 4 games with the new book.

Firebelly : Cheep Level 1 with dispell Scroll =

Easily my favorite hero! You could put a Hellheart on a second one for some awesome magic defense, and against TK or VC this would be BRUTAL! His Flaming Breath Attack is Fantastic buff to CC and adds to the combat res something Fierce. I tried 2 firebellys in a unit both Level 1 with a Dragonhide Banner, all in a big unit of bulls. Charged 50+ Orcs and burned most of them to death.

Sabretusks : Single units of 1 =

These dogs are my favorite unit. Woof Woof! Redirectors of Dreams, they are perfect at what they do and can add some marchblocking, awkward charge angles to a game in your advantage. I think 4 for every 1k is to many but 3 for every 1k is not out of the question.

Mournfangs : 3 or 4 with Dragonbanner =

4 would be Ideal but 3 is what I ran in 2 out of three games. They hit like a ton of Bricks. D3 Impact hits + 7A each + S5 Stomp. YUMMM. They are normally targetted but not killed off. If these chaps are getting hit it means your block of Bulls is not.

Maneaters : 3 with Scout & Swiftstrider + HA & AHW =

My opponents finish deploying and the WTH??? 3 Scouting Ogres! I love the psychological factor to this. As any unit that can "Upset" the balance of an enemies game plan is golden, their reaction is usually an overreation leaving you the deal with less of their army on the main charge. 15A @ S5 from 3 models is fantastic. Also Swifstrider makes that wonderful 10+ for charge range even more likley, I got it in my last game and it really helped.

Gourger : "Spleenripper" =

If he don't come on by turn 3 you've really wasted your points. The good news is if he comes on turn 2 its ANOTHER psychological thorn in your enemies head. He may not do amazingly well but the place anywhere factor messes with your opponent and really can help plug a hole or make a flank even stronger.

Bulls : LA +Ironfist =

I have always liked them, and still do. Bang for your bucks they are GREAT! But will still wither to an amazing CC unit. I run them in about units of 12 ... maybe more. Our main battle unit and bunker for characters. Enough said.




Overall I love the new units but HATE the look of the Morunfangs. I will change them out for Rhinox as soon as I can. More info and battle repourts to come.

Gaargod
03-09-2011, 12:49
Sabretusks : Single units of 1 =

These dogs are my favorite unit. Woof Woof! Redirectors of Dreams, they are perfect at what they do and can add some marchblocking, awkward charge angles to a game in your advantage. I think 4 for every 1k is to many but 3 for every 1k is not out of the question.




And illegal. Sabretusks are special choices, ergo you only get 3 units of them in total, until 3000pts.

Taking 3 individual sabretusks for 63pts is not unreasonable at all however.

Da Black Gobbo
03-09-2011, 14:09
I'm starting to envision an "OMG! they come from everywhere!" army, with a 6 ME unit with Scout and Farstrider. A Hunter with a beefy unit of Cats, 1-2 Gorgers and an Anvil of BSB+Slaughermaster with a decent unit of ogres, a Thundertusk, a Scraplauncher/IronBlaster and some Leadbelchers.

What do you think??

drear
03-09-2011, 14:17
sadly you cannot have 6 units of maneaters , all with scout .

you can only use the 2 rules once. so your limited to a specific number of maneaters

but the idea to saturate your army with missile fire can never be a bad one ^^
my army has the potential for 3 templates, and 10 str 10 shots, aswell as 48 str 4 or shots a turn with the new book D:

Da Black Gobbo
03-09-2011, 14:19
Oh, i must have expressed that wrong, i mean one unit of 6 ME.

vinny t
03-09-2011, 21:29
So what is the concensus on Leadbelchers? They seem like good flank protectors and good scout killers, however they are fragile and expensive. I think a unit of 6 would be good as it could basically clear one flank of pesky annoying units.

Also I'm leaning more toward the idea of 3/4 Scouting Maneaters. They put out some major hurt in CC and can provide a sizable threat if placed correctly, which, with them being scouts, is pretty likely.

ashc
03-09-2011, 21:48
I am glad maneaters are shaping up well because they *look. Awesome.*

Gaargod
04-09-2011, 00:08
Maneaters are indeed awesome. I can also confirm, having looked at the book today, that they can actually take different weapons. This means that a unit of 6 with 3 brace of pistols and 3 great weapons and heavy armour comes to (a rather depressing) 393pts.

(yeah, weapons are expensive! Pistols are double the price of the great weapon option in the old book, and great weapons only 1 point less than that. Heavy armour stayed the same though).

Not that I'm saying you'd necessarily take that unit, but the option is there. You could of course take the cheaper option of AHW + great weapons - which I suspect will be rather common for the 6x scout + swiftstride/stubborn combo. Stick the great weapons in the back to break big things with S7, and swing those A5 I3 S5 maneaters in front!


On leadbelchers, I think a unit of 6 is actually very effective. An average of 21 S4 shots, which at long range means 7 hits, is a scary prospect to irritating flankers/march blockers (you can go all Duck Hunter on those great eagles!). Plus, they're not exactly shabby in combat, and they're not that much more expensive than bulls. On the other hand, you're going to seriously want points and room in special this edition, so you might not be taking too many...

Biff Gunhed
04-09-2011, 00:48
Can't wait to get my book.

Scouting-striding Maneaters do sound great. I'll definitely fit a unit of those in.

Is the Thundertusk too expensive to take in 1000pt games?

Lukasz_VT
04-09-2011, 03:10
I've got the book now and am very excited by how viable many of the units seem (for the pick up games I play at least)!

I think Skragg is now a very decent choice. He is only 40 points more expensive than a lvl4 slaughtermaster with full item allowance and essentially gives you a lvl4 SM with tyrant stats - including that all important Ld9, 6A at S5 with killing blow and T6 (with easy access to regen)! The new rules do not have the pre-requisite of taking gorgers either ;) I'm not usually a fan of SCs, but Skragg I like. The new law makes him a beast too, thanks to the healing

I am also excited by the Law of the Great Maw. Not having the buffs damage our casters and then just get dispelled in the opponents turn is well worth the trade-off of them no longer being RIP or stacking, IMO. Plus, bloodgruel seems a very useful attribute - most attributes are pretty situational, but regaining wounds on a 2+ and gaining +1 to cast is great, especially on casters that aren't afraid of combat.

Although I am very tempted by the firebelly, I'd also like to try an SM with Maw and a lvl1 with beasts, taking wildform for some crazily buffed Ogres :D

Tzeentch Lover
04-09-2011, 05:26
I think Skragg is now a very decent choice. He is only 40 points more expensive than a lvl4 slaughtermaster with full item allowance and essentially gives you a lvl4 SM with tyrant stats - including that all important Ld9, 6A at S5 with killing blow and T6 (with easy access to regen)! The new rules do not have the pre-requisite of taking gorgers either ;) I'm not usually a fan of SCs, but Skragg I like. The new law makes him a beast too, thanks to the healing


What you do is make a 2k list with Skragg, a horde of 18 bulls w/Ironfists, and 11 Gorgers(Skragg removes the limitation on multiple units for Gorgers). The bullstar runs at the enemy and as soon as Skragg murders something, the gorgers all jump out and shank your opponent's army. :D

Coldblood666
04-09-2011, 06:11
What size is Scraggs base? He can join units of Ogres can't he?

The Satyr
04-09-2011, 06:14
What size is Scraggs base? He can join units of Ogres can't he?

Yes, 50x100

ogresrdabest
04-09-2011, 10:17
I think ironblasters will now be very common in ogre armies as you get a cannon with a strength 10 grapeshot (seriously WTF!) and an angry chariot with the survivability of a hellcannon. That and they are only 5 more points than the old scrap launcher.

The model is also amazing.

drear
04-09-2011, 10:51
i can see a 3k list featureing 2 ironblasters and 2 scrap laucnhers regularly just for their cheap cost and the devistation they could cause D:

Tzeentch Lover
04-09-2011, 11:00
with a strength 10 grapeshot (seriously WTF!)


It's much less impressive when you know the rules for grapeshot. Artillery dice worth of shots that will likely hit on 5s(BS3, long range bast 6" and/or move and shoot).

tanka
04-09-2011, 11:01
I'm liking the idea of 2x4 leadbelchers with bellowers deployed 2x2, won't take a lot of room their main job being to take out support units.

I'm thinking lv 4, lv1 w beasts and lv 1 firebelly wold be very nice, probably a little ott though, so the firebelly will probably be dropped.

4 Man-eaters with ahw, scout and stubborn is going to be my favourite unit I think, 208pts of win, another unit the same but with vanguard and swiftstride may also be taken.

The 2 big monsters are ok, if the thundertusks chill was units not models it would be awesome, as is it's good but not great, I still don't think I'll be taking either though, as I2 is a little too vulnerable imo for that many pts.

2400 List I'm looking to use this week s:
Lv 4
Lv 1 w/beasts and helheart
BSB

2x11 bulls, full co
2x4 leadbelchers
4 maneaters
3x1 sabertusks
3 mournfangs, musician
Ironblaster

Thornz
04-09-2011, 11:57
What size bases are the Mournfang Riders on I have seached and searched and can't find the info anywhyere. It looks like 50x100 But I would love to know for sure.

HalfEvil333
04-09-2011, 12:03
What size bases are the Mournfang Riders on I have seached and searched and can't find the info anywhyere. It looks like 50x100 But I would love to know for sure.

50x100. At least, that's what the GW website claims.

Is anyone else feeling pretty 'eh' about the new Lore and the fact that at least one wizard has to take it? Other than on a Slaughtermaster, who can use the healing and can cast the boosted spells much easier, I think I'd rather have any of the other Lores on my casters.

tanka
04-09-2011, 12:16
I think the new lore will just take some getting used to, stubborn, +1 S, +1 T and regen will allow you to swing combats your way, while bubbled trollguts will swing games if you get it off at crucial times. The number 6 spell could be good depending on what your playing. The panic and mm spell both have their uses but I don't think either are great, I see panic being useful for clearing a support unit on a flank and the mm I think is ok but a little too high in castng value.

I believe the ogre book folows the new books quite well, there's nothing in there too ott while most units are viable, if the rest of the 8th edition books are like this then all well and good from my point of view.

Lukasz_VT
04-09-2011, 13:31
It's much less impressive when you know the rules for grapeshot. Artillery dice worth of shots that will likely hit on 5s(BS3, long range bast 6" and/or move and shoot).

Exactly, I cannot understand why people have claimed this is powerful. Unless I am seriously missing something, I can barely think of situations where you would want to actually use this. As you are getting at most 10 shots, hitting on 5s = 3-4 hits, so you may as well fire it as a normal cannon through ranks and ignore armour, causing multiple wounds. If they don't have many ranks, why not just charge in?

On another note, I'd like to talk about sabretusks. Since they are warbeasts, they only get 1 supporting attack, right? So If you want to field 10 with a hunter, you need a stupidly wide frontage to get the most out of it.

I am also not quite understanding the excitement over the single sabretusk redirecters - could someone explain this to me? Surely the enemy unit either redirects a charge if you flee, or kills the sabretusk and reforms. I can understand this being great for messing with frenzied units, but with 8th Ed rules, is this worthwhile now?

Mid'ean
04-09-2011, 14:29
I am also not quite understanding the excitement over the single sabretusk redirecters - could someone explain this to me? Surely the enemy unit either redirects a charge if you flee, or kills the sabretusk and reforms. I can understand this being great for messing with frenzied units, but with 8th Ed rules, is this worthwhile now?

Let's say your out of charge range of a unit. You move up the unit you wish to charge to within easy charge range. Place sabretusk in front of the enemy unit so he will have to charge it or move around it. You don't flee with him. If he charges, he kills him and he reforms right in front of your unit wishing to charge.......:evilgrin: He has other uses too. To pull a unit out of line. To delay a unit....All for 21 points. Well worth his points!!!

Scammel
04-09-2011, 14:56
An with attacking stats better than an Ogre's, they're quite capable of going after small targets, too.

HalfEvil333
04-09-2011, 14:58
I think the new lore will just take some getting used to, stubborn, +1 S, +1 T and regen will allow you to swing combats your way, while bubbled trollguts will swing games if you get it off at crucial times. The number 6 spell could be good depending on what your playing. The panic and mm spell both have their uses but I don't think either are great, I see panic being useful for clearing a support unit on a flank and the mm I think is ok but a little too high in castng value.

I don't know, it seems like a Lore I'd want only on a Slaughtermaster, so that he can cast the boosted spells. The healing from the attribute is also nice on such an expensive model. For a Butcher, I'd have to go with one of the other Lores if available.

ashc
04-09-2011, 15:04
Or take a firebelly for a different sort of role altogether, whilst still bringing the magic.

Vsurma
04-09-2011, 15:52
That seems to be the most popular set up atm anyway.

Slaughtermaster with ogre lore
Firebelly for the breath weapon and a spell or 2 from fire
lv1-2 from another lore, beasts is nice since it gives redundancy, the first spell is very good and combined with the ogre lore you should be able to give additional S or T to a unit you need to since you have the 2 abilities to do so.

Da Black Gobbo
04-09-2011, 17:14
That seems to be the most popular set up atm anyway.

Slaughtermaster with ogre lore
Firebelly for the breath weapon and a spell or 2 from fire
lv1-2 from another lore, beasts is nice since it gives redundancy, the first spell is very good and combined with the ogre lore you should be able to give additional S or T to a unit you need to since you have the 2 abilities to do so.

I don't know if that's too much, will you have enough dice to throw more than 1 spell each? our new lore is Superfantastic, Buffing everyone arround, i love it cause it encourage you to go for sinergy, using your punchy units to be punchier or beeffier.

Aschen
04-09-2011, 17:38
I decided to start an Ogre army..and I was looking through the codex and thought that the Gnoblars would do well with Lore of fire backup. Namely flaming sword of Rhuin

KSpen
04-09-2011, 18:03
Not great use of that mage Aschen. Gnobs are mainly to protect a flank and tarpit their hammer unit for a few turns. Even with a bonus to hit, they wont kill much more.

Guys, has anyone done any maths for the Ironblaster? For a normal cannon, optimal is 7" from base (closer for larger bases), so I suspect 8" is the better.

Or am I wrong, is it the bounce with 2 arty dice? Havent got my book yet.

Von Wibble
04-09-2011, 18:31
Its only the bounce that gets the extra artillery dice, so when firing it treat it exactly as you would a cannon.

What uses do people have planned for Yhetees? They are the only unit I haven't really seen mentioned.

ashc
04-09-2011, 18:34
I still don't think people are that impressed with them, as they were last edition, not to mention not getting new models doesn't help them...

Murdoch
04-09-2011, 19:12
Also no one has mentioned hordes? I am still well up for a couple of units of 18 ogres with some of the new support units to act as either a deterrent or a potential flank charge.

dragon banner is awesome now! one of the lamest magic items has been seriously buffed. To bad about mawseeker though :-(

tanka
04-09-2011, 20:27
I personally think just a lv 4 is fine for magic, most of the time your going to be engaging on turn 2/3 and the buffs are fine once combat is joined, while the hellheart is nice I don't think it's needed. Going to try slaughtermaster with armour of fortune, ironfist, stubborn crown, dispel scroll and 5pt sword for ethereals.

That I can see is the only reason you would include yhettees, maneaters with +1 movement do their job as well if for a few more pts, the magic attacks wil be nice but it's a little wasted if you don't play vc's.

My main issue with the book is minimum 3+ on leadbelchers, was looking forward to taking 3 units of 2 to run around and be useful, made me change my thinking a little.

EnternalVoid
04-09-2011, 23:32
For magic users I have been considering a Lv4 and a Firebelly, maybe even a Lv1 firebelly. If he rolls Flaming Sword of Ruin, Great, if not he just falls back to fireball to give me access to more flame based attacks. He gives me another mage, possible arcane item, fire attacks, and fire breath attack. He strikes me as a good support overall.

Ya the 3+ ironbelchers made me sad too, as at the moment I only have 2 made and was thinking of just making 2 more for two groups of 2.

Barry "the blade"
04-09-2011, 23:36
On the leadbeltcher now being 3+, with the drop in points cost a unit of 3 will only cost about 20 points more than the old unit of 2.

I really think they will play a vital roll(especially against elite armies) in the new OK army. I will be trying to fit two units of 4 in my 2k lists, and 3 units at 3k. Or maybe 2 units of 6... Not sure yet.

decker_cky
04-09-2011, 23:55
Question: Can BSB's take big names and magic banners? If so, then the mawseeker still can be useful (though that's an expensive BSB). T6 4+/6+ on a 4 wound BSB that's immune to KB is plenty safe in the world of BSBs (not to mention how easy it is to hide monstrous infantry BSBs from combat).

HalfEvil333
05-09-2011, 00:00
Question: Can BSB's take big names and magic banners? If so, then the mawseeker still can be useful (though that's an expensive BSB). T6 4+/6+ on a 4 wound BSB that's immune to KB is plenty safe in the world of BSBs (not to mention how easy it is to hide monstrous infantry BSBs from combat).

The BSB section for the Bruiser makes no mention to Big Names, just magic items. However, Mawseeker is Tyrant only. Mountaineater would be useful to protect against other characters, though.

decker_cky
05-09-2011, 01:27
That's too bad. Regardless, it's pretty easy to hide an ogre BSB in the second rank, and he can even throw out 3 attacks from there.

Saldiven
05-09-2011, 04:12
I'm starting to envision an "OMG! they come from everywhere!" army, with a 6 ME unit with Scout and Farstrider. A Hunter with a beefy unit of Cats, 1-2 Gorgers and an Anvil of BSB+Slaughermaster with a decent unit of ogres, a Thundertusk, a Scraplauncher/IronBlaster and some Leadbelchers.

What do you think??

Hahah...how 'bout this. A friend and I were joking about this today.

Take the special character that removes the limitation on how many Gorgers you can take. Give him a nice block to hide in.

Use the rest of your points on Gorgers.

As soon as that special character (can't remember his name) does one wound to the enemy, all of your Gorgers automatically come on at the start of your next movement phase.

Very silly, probably not very competitive, but we had a big laugh about bringing on about 10-15 Gorgers from behind the enemy's lines all at the same time.

Tzeentch Lover
05-09-2011, 04:47
The BSB section for the Bruiser makes no mention to Big Names, just magic items. However, Mawseeker is Tyrant only. Mountaineater would be useful to protect against other characters, though.

I'd take Deathcheater over Mountaineater. Unless the local meta is heavy in units/characters that are S7+ in CC.

Avian
05-09-2011, 07:41
Let's say your out of charge range of a unit. You move up the unit you wish to charge to within easy charge range. Place sabretusk in front of the enemy unit so he will have to charge it or move around it. You don't flee with him. If he charges, he kills him and he reforms right in front of your unit wishing to charge.......:evilgrin: He has other uses too. To pull a unit out of line. To delay a unit....All for 21 points. Well worth his points!!!
I think their main uses are being another deployment in an army that has few. Redirecting and so on doesn't work so well in this edition.

KSpen
05-09-2011, 09:22
Please ellaborate on how to get the BSB in the back rank. Wasnt it better to get the characters in the front before?

nethermage
05-09-2011, 09:54
champion, standard and bellower must go in front rank so just get more then 3 bulls with full command and any characters get put into the 2nd rank

Avian
05-09-2011, 11:50
Until the Champion bites it, anyway. But full command and one other character is pretty safe. Butcher can smack people with three S6 attacks from the second rank, for example.

Mercules
05-09-2011, 15:55
I think their main uses are being another deployment in an army that has few. Redirecting and so on doesn't work so well in this edition.

No, but it is very good for slowing an enemy. Place the Sabertusk 1" in front of the unit at an odd angle so if they charge they will have to form up on him and any overrun will be away from the main fight. If they don't charge they have to try and get around it but it can easily move back into the way. So instead you charge, kill the Sabertusk, and reform having spent a turn going a whole inch.

Da Black Gobbo
05-09-2011, 16:35
I think i'll use a Hunter with a sword of +1 to hit, longstrider and 4 cats (looking forward other minis i really don't like the new finecrap models) that should give me a unit with an interesting pregame abbility and the posibility to hunt flanks, warmachines and get missile troops off the game, 12 str4 attacks and 4 str5 attacks hitting on 3+ or 2+ seem good enough for me!.

Avian
05-09-2011, 17:37
No, but it is very good for slowing an enemy. Place the Sabertusk 1" in front of the unit at an odd angle so if they charge they will have to form up on him and any overrun will be away from the main fight. If they don't charge they have to try and get around it but it can easily move back into the way. So instead you charge, kill the Sabertusk, and reform having spent a turn going a whole inch.

That is assuming the enemy needs to get into combat more than we do, which frequently isn't the case.

One Sabretusk is also quite easy to kill and causes Panic tests in most of our units.

decker_cky
05-09-2011, 17:46
The sabertusks are important for setting up charges during your turn, so you get magical support. Also for avoiding units you don't want to fight (3+ ward chosen, minobuses, etc..).

Lukasz_VT
05-09-2011, 19:18
Thanks for the explanations on redirecters, that is very helpful :)

Another use for small sabretusk units could be to get easy flank/rear attacks for CR boosts.

What do people think of the new Grut's sickle? I think it could be worth trying on a lvl4 with Lore of the Great Maw. If you get a decent enough winds of magic, you could cast a boat load of boosted spells with 2 dice each, with each cast giving you a further +1 to cast the next, when you'd start with a base of +6 to cast - could make things hard to dispel! Pricey though.

fruitystu
05-09-2011, 19:54
Evening all!

Right, I'm going to have a damned good Maneater type tinker sesh on Saturday. Massive Ogres V Everyone game on Saturday, and I intend to try out a modest unit of 6 Maneaters with Scout and Vanguard. Sure, I can't charge in the first turn, but I'm willing to bet that having some naughty Ogres up on your flank in the first turn should give them pause for thought.

Going to give them Heavy Arrmour and additional Hand Weapon, as that should be more than enough to shoo off any unit capable of responding in good time, shortly before they get stuck into the flank.

In smaller games, reduce the unit size to three. Your opponent can either go after a relatively cheap and disposable unit with firepower, sparing the bulk of your force, or squander a turn of movement the poor sod really can't afford turning a unit to confront this particlar nasty.

Will let you know how it goes!

Da Black Gobbo
05-09-2011, 19:55
Thanks for the explanations on redirecters, that is very helpful :)

Another use for small sabretusk units could be to get easy flank/rear attacks for CR boosts.

What do people think of the new Grut's sickle? I think it could be worth trying on a lvl4 with Lore of the Great Maw. If you get a decent enough winds of magic, you could cast a boat load of boosted spells with 2 dice each, with each cast giving you a further +1 to cast the next, when you'd start with a base of +6 to cast - could make things hard to dispel! Pricey though.

For me the possibility of making your own guy disappear just removes the posibility of using it on a competitive enviroment, but on a causal game play it's worth the try.

Deroga
05-09-2011, 20:40
I think the Grut Sickle is great. 1 wound to get +6 to cast all spells is perfect for stretching your power dice out, trying to overroll your opponent, and it makes getting off the area of effect spells a very viable choice. Sure, on snake eyes youll lose your caster, but if you dont like that chance then might as well not take a caster....odds of getting sucked into the warp and blowing up half your unit cant be far off. Benifits far outweigh the risk imo.

Necromancer2
05-09-2011, 20:46
is the stonehorn a mount for a character?

vinny t
05-09-2011, 20:53
Yes the stonehorn can be a mount for a hunter.

Now with the abundance of Gnoblars in the new kits along with all of the Luck Gnoblars that I have been prying off bases, has anyone given any thought to The Gnoblar Horde? This would be a unit of 100 Gnoblars whose only job would be to take up space. It would have a massive footprint, soak up an obscene amount of damage, and with the right buffs on it, could actually kill something. It would be rediculously cheap for how large it is. You could run it 5x20 or 10x10 and just tarpit nasty super units.

Any thoughts?

My problem with Grut's Sickle is how expensive it is. It's 25 Skaven Slaves (can we post points now?) for the item, and 43 Slaves for the 2 sacrificed Ironguts assuming the Slaughtermaster's in a unit of Ironguts with +1 LD banner. All those points plus the risk of losing your expensive general and lvl 4 caster makes the +2 to cast not really worth it.

ashc
05-09-2011, 20:53
I belive a hunter can ride it if you wish.

The Satyr
05-09-2011, 20:59
Those are a couple things I've been pondering

1. How good would a hunter on a stonehorn really be

2. A skrag list with no Ogres except Skrag. As in 25% Gnoblars, Skrag, 50% Gorgers and then scrap launchers for rare. Highly themed as they are all oppressed by the ogres

ashc
05-09-2011, 21:01
Im not convinced the mounted hunter is worth it, i must say.

cortez555
05-09-2011, 21:38
I dont think hunters really have much of a place tbh, to me they just dont seem worth there points.

mr.silly
05-09-2011, 21:51
I have a rules question concerning the ogre charge; it says that every ogre in the unit gains the Impact Hits special rule, does that mean they all deliver an impact hit? Or is it still just the front rank?

fruitystu
05-09-2011, 21:52
Still just the front rank I believe.

isotope99
05-09-2011, 22:49
I have a rules question concerning the ogre charge; it says that every ogre in the unit gains the Impact Hits special rule, does that mean they all deliver an impact hit? Or is it still just the front rank?

"Models with this special rule that are part of a unit with ranks add their current rank bonus to the strength of the impact hits they inflict."

p32

A picky rules lawyer might be able to argue that because nothing here contradicts the statement that every ogre gets a hit then they all get it and they add strength but I think it's pretty clear that's not the intention and an 18 strong horde gets 6 S6 hits not 18 S6 hits :cheese:

decker_cky
05-09-2011, 23:26
No....they really wouldn't. It's a modifier to the impact hits they cause. The rule is clear.

HalfEvil333
05-09-2011, 23:48
Just a quick note on Grut's Sickle. Works very well with a Slaughtermaster with Great Maw that's by himself. Keep him close to a unit for the LO,S!, inflict a wound on himself, heal himself with Blood Gruel. He would also have 50 pts. left over to give himself protection, such as Armor of the Silvered Steel, or one of the 4++ items.

EDIT: Also, anyone else think its weird that the Slaughtermaster is the only one of the wizards that can't take a great weapon?

mr.silly
06-09-2011, 00:08
Thanks for clearing that up, I thought it was too good to be true.

Lukasz_VT
06-09-2011, 00:28
Also, anyone else think its weird that the Slaughtermaster is the only one of the wizards that can't take a great weapon?

Yes I was lamenting that, and the magic item GWs just got rediculously expensive - 50 point increase to siegebreaker, when it only gives +2 strength instead of +3 now :(

Tzeentch Lover
06-09-2011, 02:18
Just a quick note on Grut's Sickle. Works very well with a Slaughtermaster with Great Maw that's by himself. Keep him close to a unit for the LO,S!, inflict a wound on himself, heal himself with Blood Gruel. He would also have 50 pts. left over to give himself protection, such as Armor of the Silvered Steel, or one of the 4++ items.


Except that the Sickle only works when he has joined a unit.

Gork or Possibly Mork
06-09-2011, 02:21
Just a quick note on Grut's Sickle. Works very well with a Slaughtermaster with Great Maw that's by himself. Keep him close to a unit for the LO,S!, inflict a wound on himself, heal himself with Blood Gruel. He would also have 50 pts. left over to give himself protection, such as Armor of the Silvered Steel, or one of the 4++ items.

EDIT: Also, anyone else think its weird that the Slaughtermaster is the only one of the wizards that can't take a great weapon?


"At the start of the Ogre Magic phase, the bearer of Grut's Sickle can inflict a single Wound on any unit he has joined" (pg 63 OK army book).

It then goes on to explain what happens if you do inflict that wound. As a character can't really claim joining a unit if he is by himself, I would say that it is impossible to use the item without joining a unit. A way around this slightly might be to join a unit composed of himself and another butcher/slaughtermaster as the other could then cast a spell and gain it back.

If what Tomalock says is true from another thread then you can't really do that. You can hardly "Join" yourself so i would have to agree with him.

I think people are really trying to stretch this one. You could however join another single character another butcher for example.

Further more i don't think it's a good idea to be running lone mages that expensive in the presence of warmachines and spells of doom.

About the SM not being allowed a GW but a butcher can take one seems really odd.

HalfEvil333
06-09-2011, 02:26
Except that the Sickle only works when he has joined a unit.

Hmm, you're right. If it said "unit he is with", it'd work, but it specifies unit joined.

Aschen
06-09-2011, 05:08
I suppose you could run two spellcasters in a unit of protection. Use the Sickle/Maw to wound/heal....would make one large target...

Avian
06-09-2011, 05:44
If there are less than five rank and file Ogres, you can allocate the wound to whomever you like in the unit.
So if you wish to have the damage on healable characters you can.

Lukasz_VT
06-09-2011, 09:41
I haven't seen it remarked on yet, but our LOS rolls have gone from a special 4+ to the standard 2+ :D Helps keep our pricey characters safe from warmachines and those insta-kill spells!

Doommasters
06-09-2011, 10:56
Just had a game against my flatmate OK vs WE (me). We agreed that he could not field the iron gut deathstar that he normally plays against me as WE really struggle to deal with it.

From memory he had approximately;

2750 Points

lvl 4 SM lotgm
Bruiser BSB
Firebelly

3 Bulls units
1 Iron Gut unit /w flame banner

1 Unit of Maneaters (how they move do they move so fast?)
1 Unit Belchers
1 Mammoth that makes me ASL

2 fast units not sure what there were


AS for me WE:

lvl4 Life
BSB

lots of 12 man GG units
2 unit of Dryads

2 Units of Treekin
1 Unit of wardancers

2 Treemen


I got massacred haha


learning;

Don't let maneaters get into your flank, I greatly underestimated how fast they can move and subsequently lost a fair few units of GG to them. The Irongut unit with BSB and flame banner was as deadly as always to my Treemen, combined the the Firebelly my Treekin and Treemen fell within 3 turns and recovered only 50% of there cost in ogres. I focused his mounted units down before they could get in range to charge but maybe I should have targeted the Maneaters first? Managed to reduce the SM unit and get him down to 1 wound twice but he managed to always heal some back, interesting they can take magic armor. Somehow the WD ended up next to the mammoth think and just got hammered (my fault). The dryads eventually killed the man eaters and almost finished off the Iron Guts, but just didn't quite make it.

Overall the power level of Ogres has defiantly gone up, which is good to see. Also it was great to play an Ogre army that had some variety rather than just a character death star unit. very impressed with the new maneaters and the mammoth was pretty cool also. Next time i will forget trying to kill the SM and aim for the mammoth instead ASL is annoying haha.

Next time i will be better prepared but I don't think I will be able to get anything but a draw out of them until the 8th edition WE is released. Leadblechers were better than before but probably the weakest unit imo, didn't get to see the mounted units in action but I assumed they hit similar to Rhinox so i targeted them first. The ASL makes it really difficult for low toughness models, I really wanted to kill his SM's unit but the Mammoth's bubble made it impossible to get my WD in there. GG really struggled to put units down, given that flammable trees die super fast and you have to kill entire units for points I just lacked the fire power to deal enough wounds as always.

If my Tree's held 1-2 more turns and I had been prepared for the Maneaters I think i could have at least killed a couple more units and maybe with some luck reduced it to a minor victory to the Ogres.

Even though I lost it was a great game and the variety in the Ogres is good to see, makes it more mentally challenging and exciting rather than having to kill just one massive unit. Will be interesting to see how they fair against a more competitive army.

Lukasz_VT
06-09-2011, 17:00
Thanks for the report and the analysis, Doommasters :D

I'd like to revisit the Mournfang armament debate, as I don't think it has been thoroughly hammered out yet.

Do you think that GWs and Ironfists are equally good? There has been people arguing for each.

I have just put together 4 of the blighters: standard, musician and two with great weapons (one to be champ). I went for great weapons because I want this unit to be fast and deadly. I want them to properly maul whatever I throw them at (which will be smaller units with good armour saves) and I know that S4-5 is not enough to be truly killy, S5-6 is much more like it (I also intend to have a wildform butcher toss a buff on them to take on really nasty stuff).

Although I agree that it is very nifty to have 2+ armour save and parry on mounted Ogres, I did not feel that a "tank" unit was the best way to use mournfangs for what I envisage them doing. 3+ save should be sufficient to help against minor arms fire and be decent enough in CC. If the units gets a flank charge, then that's less attacks coming at you anyway (not sure how easy flanking will be given the unit footprint - it's huge!).

Finally, GWs look AWESOME.

I should say that I am not a tournament player, but enjoy playing competitive pick up games at my LGS, as far as they get competitive.

tanka
06-09-2011, 17:01
My 2 main faults are:

Tyrants - Still have a role as a tank, not really needed though due to SMs being so damn good now.

No mounts for charaters - I was quite looking forward to seeing a mournfang riding ogre character, even if it was limited to brusiers and tyrants.

Von Wibble
06-09-2011, 17:35
I think ironfists are better for mournfangs if you face infantry.

Imo the largest difference in armour save is the step from 3+ to 2+. It halves the number of wounds that will be inflicted by S3 attacks.

If the +1 to save and the parry between them can prevent just 1 shooting or combat wound inflicted before the mournfangs strike (and with their I a lot of things will go before them), it could prevent a mournfang from being killed before striking. Considering how hard hitting they are even with ironfists (the impact hits and mounts do the majority of the damage anyway), those attacks gained (or rather, not lost) are very important.

The fact this option is iirc cheaper as well makes it a no brainer imo.

The one exception to this would be if you are facing a cavalry heavy army with no shooting. The armour save modifiers become much more important in this case.

isotope99
06-09-2011, 18:00
Ironfists help protect all 7 of your attacks, great weapons buff only 3 and are 3 points more expensive, I'm sticking with ironfists.

Deroga
06-09-2011, 19:25
Yes the stonehorn can be a mount for a hunter.

Now with the abundance of Gnoblars in the new kits along with all of the Luck Gnoblars that I have been prying off bases, has anyone given any thought to The Gnoblar Horde? This would be a unit of 100 Gnoblars whose only job would be to take up space. It would have a massive footprint, soak up an obscene amount of damage, and with the right buffs on it, could actually kill something. It would be rediculously cheap for how large it is. You could run it 5x20 or 10x10 and just tarpit nasty super units.

Any thoughts?

My problem with Grut's Sickle is how expensive it is. It's 25 Skaven Slaves (can we post points now?) for the item, and 43 Slaves for the 2 sacrificed Ironguts assuming the Slaughtermaster's in a unit of Ironguts with +1 LD banner. All those points plus the risk of losing your expensive general and lvl 4 caster makes the +2 to cast not really worth it.

This is true, but you dont have to use it every combat phase, in fact i probably wouldnt start using it till turn 3ish, when i really need to start putting on the pressure in the magic phase to get off 1 of our augments.

I will entirely concede that this is a grey item atm, and is in need of alot of playtesting to see if it really is worth the risk of losing the Slaughter Master, and causing 2-6 wounds to your already small in numbers army. I personally beleive that it will be worth it, but I could very well be wrong, and if so I will likely switch to either a Dispel Scroll or the Hell Heart.

Deroga
06-09-2011, 19:26
Here is what a friend and I have brainstormed over the last couple of days about some of the great new additions and changes to the army...

1.) The Mournfang Cav are, imo, as points efficient as Dark Elf Hydra's. Considering a unit of 2 is only 5 points more than a Hydra, you get the following...

Movement 8
-- T4 with 2+ armor save and 6+ ward in close combat
-- 6 str 4 attacks, 8 str 5 attacks, 2d3 str 5 impact hits, and 2 str 5 stomps
-- a musician and a champion
-- 6 wounds that, in combat, have to be distributed between the musician and the champion.

Then factor in that, since it is special, you can bring 3 units with this setup! Crazy.

2.) Take 3, 1 man units of saber tusks. with M8 they make amazingly efficient war machine hunters and redirectors. It's will pretty much perform all the functions of fast cav for 2/3 the points of a 5 man Warriors of Chaos War Hound unit ><

3.) Iron Blasters are, imo, as efficient as the Hell Cannon, for a bit less.
-- T6, 5 wounds, chariots d6 str 5 impact hits, 3 str 5 attacks, 3 str 4 attacks
-- it has m6 with a Cannon on it that can move and shoot. It also has a str 10 grapeshot. So as its moving forward taking care of monsters, it can then mow over hordes of infantry.

4.) The Ogre Gut magic is overall very solid, with 3 spells that are single target or 12" area of affect augments that do the following; +1 str, +1 toughness, gives the unit(s) 4+ regen. Combine this with the fact that every time you successfully cast a spell you regain a wound on the caster on a 2+, and get +1 to your next casting OR dispelling attempt. With this in mind you almost don't need any protection for the Slaughter Master, as he is T5 with 5 wounds.

5.) There are 2 war gear options that are worth note, imo.

-- Hell Heart. It is a one time use arcane item that makes all enemy wizards within a d6x5" automatically miscast. That is obviously powerful when you consider that Slaughter Masters are so tough that getting into the thick of things with the ogre combat units is no problem. BUT, you can also choose to use this AFTER the winds of magic have been rolled. So you can wait to use it till they roll a lot of power dice, this way even if the miscast rolled isn't to bad, they are now going to lose a d6 power dice.

-- Gruts Sickle. This is another arcane item that a caster can use to cause 1 wound to the unit he is with to gain +2 casting for his magic phase, if the item is used you must roll 2d6 at the end of your turn and on snake eyes he dies outright. I feel that this item has been overlooked online so far because of the Hell Heart and that you can potentially lose your Slaughter Master. BUT, i think it is amazing, and plan on testing it first. 1 wound gets you +2 to cast, bringing you to +6 overall to cast with +7 if you previously successfully casted a spell. For me, this means that the area of affect versions of the 4 spells now become very castable, bringing the dice generally required to reliably cast these spells to 3 for +1 str and + 1 toughness (down from 4 each), and 4 for regeneration (down from 5). I guess you can pretty much say that it will reduce the dice needed to reliably cast all spells by 1. Compare this item to the Dark Elf arcane item Sacrificial Dagger, which causes 1 wound to the unit to add a power dice to a spell, and must cause 1 wound for each spell cast...this item is pretty much the same thing in reverse, but only causes 1 wound for all spells. The difference is, of course, that if you use it you have a chance of losing your caster on a roll of double 1's. I don't know, but for a free power dice per spell cast on magic phases you use it, a 1/36 (2.7%)chance to lose my Slaughter Master is completely worth it. Especially if you consider that the sacrificial dagger has the potential of causing a miscast for the dark elf sorceress as well, which can end critical magic phases and potentially kill the sorceress and wipe the unit she is with out...though i don't feel like messing with figuring those odds right now lol, and the lvl 4 sac dagger sorceress is used in pretty much EVERY Dark Elf list without giving a second thought.

6.) Man Eaters. Overall they have a lot of new and useful setups...but here is the one i would like to mention/discuss...

Brace of Hand Guns with Sniper and Poison. (for snits and shiggles one could add a banner with the flaming attacks magic banner)

with the - 1 to for multi shots, -1 for sniping, -1 for generally being long range, and that the handguns are quick to fire so no pnealty for moving and shooting, you will pretty much always need 6's to hit any ways. The unit will get 8 shots, so getting a wound in a turn will should be devastating vs hero casters, and should be able to put some pressure on bsb's. In combat they are still very potent with 5 str 5 attacks each + the 4 str 5 impact hits and 4 str 5 stomps.

P(x,n) = probability of doing x wounds with n shots
Q(x,n) = probability of doing at least x wounds with n shots

x n-x P(x,n) Q(x,n)
0 8 23.256804% 100.000000%
1 7 37.210886% 76.743196%
2 6 26.047620% 39.532310%
3 5 10.419048% 13.484689%
4 4 2.604762% 3.065641%
5 3 0.416762% 0.460879%
6 2 0.041676% 0.044117%
7 1 0.002381% 0.002441%
8 0 0.000060% 0.000060%

So, we're looking at a 40% chance to gack an enemy 2 wound character, regardless of toughness, and ignoring two steps of armor save? That includes most BSBs with magic banners and support mages. Expect to see that unit in most builds! (feel free to check the numbers and correct if mistaken)




There are a few other smaller things that can be added, but I feel like these were some of the big things we brainstormed.

Avian
06-09-2011, 19:53
I think I'll need to see the Sniper Maneaters in play a few times first. My instinct tells me that soon enough, people with vulnerable characters will put other units in front to give you a further -2 to hit.

Deroga
06-09-2011, 19:56
I think I'll need to see the Sniper Maneaters in play a few times first. My instinct tells me that soon enough, people with vulnerable characters will put other units in front to give you a further -2 to hit.

very true, and this means that the use of the sniper/poison Man Eaters will likely be largely based on each areas meta game.

KSpen
06-09-2011, 20:00
Thanks for your summary Deroga, most helpful. Didnt realise we can get +3 to cast ontop of +4!. Still waiting on my 'pre-order' stuff :cries:

Im going to try run something like:

Bruiser BSB
SM, great maw

10ish ogres
10ish IGs
3-6 LBs
6 ME with poison, sniper
3 ME with scout, ITP
Ironblaster
Big monster, the one for ASL (i dont know havent got my book yet!)

Does this look like a 2k list?

Deroga
06-09-2011, 20:09
Looks like quite a decent start, though i can only assume since i have not been able to try anything out lol. Here is the 2500 point list i plan on running once i have finished painting my Warriors of Chaos army...

Slaughter Master lvl 4 with Gut Maw
Talisman of Protection
Grut's Sickle

Bruiser BSB with Great Weapon
Armor of Silvered Steel
Luck Stone

Iron Guts x 7 (Joined by Slaughter Master and ran 4x2)
Full Command
Standard of Discipline (so i can have a ld 9 general)

Ogre Bulls x 8 with Iron Fists (joined by the BSB and ran 3x3)
Musician + Champion

Mournfang Cavalry x 2 with Heavy Armor and Iron Fist
Musician and Champion

Mournfang Cavalry x 2 with Heavy Armor and Iron Fist
Musician and Champion

Man Eaters x 4 with Braces of Hand Guns
Musician
Sniper + Poison

Lead Belchers x 3
Musician

Lead Belchers x 3
Musician

3, 1 man units of Saber Tusks

2 x Iron Blasters

KSpen
06-09-2011, 20:34
Hehe, Im painting up my O&Gs too, now the ogre stuff is enroute :eyebrows:

I see youre informed about the sabretusks, just read a thread over the stronghold, they seem..amazing! (for those of you who havent read this get over there)

I need to ask do you really need 2 ironblasters? I just think for its cost you could make the ME a unit of 6, greatly enhancing your ability to kill off bsbs and lv2s by turn 2:skull:

Also, maybe a small unit of ME to scout for WM hunting.

Oh, its option paralysis again, like my OnGs :evilgrin:

Doommasters
06-09-2011, 20:36
Looks like quite a decent start, though i can only assume since i have not been able to try anything out lol. Here is the 2500 point list i plan on running once i have finished painting my Warriors of Chaos army...

Slaughter Master lvl 4 with Gut Maw
Talisman of Protection
Grut's Sickle

Bruiser BSB with Great Weapon
Armor of Silvered Steel
Luck Stone

Iron Guts x 7 (Joined by Slaughter Master and ran 4x2)
Full Command
Standard of Discipline (so i can have a ld 9 general)

Ogre Bulls x 8 with Iron Fists (joined by the BSB and ran 3x3)
Musician + Champion

Mournfang Cavalry x 2 with Heavy Armor and Iron Fist
Musician and Champion

Mournfang Cavalry x 2 with Heavy Armor and Iron Fist
Musician and Champion

Man Eaters x 4 with Braces of Hand Guns
Musician
Sniper + Poison

Lead Belchers x 3
Musician

Lead Belchers x 3
Musician

3, 1 man units of Saber Tusks

2 x Iron Blasters

Looks pretty scary, not that I play Ogres but don't you want some type of flamming attacks in there? Lots of targets become much easier to deal with when you can negate regeneration; Hydra, Hellpit, Treemen, Treekin, Grave Guard and much more. After seeing how useful the Firebelly was against my WE I would not want to leave home without one :p

Deroga
06-09-2011, 21:27
Hehe, Im painting up my O&Gs too, now the ogre stuff is enroute :eyebrows:

I see youre informed about the sabretusks, just read a thread over the stronghold, they seem..amazing! (for those of you who havent read this get over there)

I need to ask do you really need 2 ironblasters? I just think for its cost you could make the ME a unit of 6, greatly enhancing your ability to kill off bsbs and lv2s by turn 2:skull:

Also, maybe a small unit of ME to scout for WM hunting.

Oh, its option paralysis again, like my OnGs :evilgrin:

I generally have a "two is one, one is none" mentality for most things that are non characters. I just want to have a really good chance that ONE cannon will go through when i need it to, as well as knowing that i can lose one of them and still have another. I am not saying that spending those points elsewhere wouldnt be a good idea, but doesnt fit my tastes and play style is all :).

"don't you want some type of flamming attacks in there? Lots of targets become much easier to deal with when you can negate regeneration; Hydra, Hellpit, Treemen, Treekin, Grave Guard and much more. After seeing how useful the Firebelly was against my WE I would not want to leave home without one."

Yes I do want the flaming banner, and this is something i am thinking about for the best way to get it in, and where to put it. Right now, once I fidget with points, i will either add it to one of the Mournfang Cavalry units, or to the Man Eater unit...with the latter being my current inclination. The poison shots make it ideal for getting a single wound on the regen monsters, and then it lets the cannons have free reign at annihilating them.

ashc
06-09-2011, 21:31
It is a tactic called built in redundancy.

KSpen
06-09-2011, 21:46
Well, actually its a v good tactic as the blaster is also a chariot eh. So its sorta like taking one of the big monsters as it can almost hit as hard and can move up the flanks along with the ogres and add firesupport and scare the bejezuz out of your foe :p

Deroga
06-09-2011, 23:25
It is a tactic called built in redundancy.

Yup! I started playing 40k first around 11 years ago, and my first army was Dark Eldar. I then played 40k with Dark Eldar for abou 8 years before picking up Fantasy. I think that my long term experiences with the extremely fragile nature of Dark Eldar where if you can take one, you take nine, has been the foundation for my approach to building armies.

Gimp
07-09-2011, 00:27
What you guys think of having 2 units of horde orges?

ashc
07-09-2011, 05:57
Yup! I started playing 40k first around 11 years ago, and my first army was Dark Eldar. I then played 40k with Dark Eldar for abou 8 years before picking up Fantasy. I think that my long term experiences with the extremely fragile nature of Dark Eldar where if you can take one, you take nine, has been the foundation for my approach to building armies.

Totally agree, never rely on just one unit to do a specific job - you probably want at least two if its that important to your battleplan!

Lunchmoney
07-09-2011, 15:34
What you guys think of having 2 units of horde orges?

Two hordes of Ogres is problematic for a couple of reasons.
1. It's simply too expensive. With this edition it seems you don't want much more than the minimum 25% core considering all of the other goodness in the army book.
2. Manueverability, they aren't that is. I use a horde of Ogres in my 3k list. They usually simply anchor the center. They just can't respond fast enough to multiple threats.

ashc
07-09-2011, 15:56
Actually if your core are half decent (which they are for ogres) then do not tie yourself to 25% min core, use them!

If you want an army with shocking core troop take a look at high elves. . .

Voss
07-09-2011, 17:57
I will entirely concede that this is a grey item atm, and is in need of alot of playtesting to see if it really is worth the risk of losing the Slaughter Master, and causing 2-6 wounds to your already small in numbers army. I personally beleive that it will be worth it, but I could very well be wrong, and if so I will likely switch to either a Dispel Scroll or the Hell Heart.

I've been pondering the possibility of putting it on a butcher or firebelly rather than the SM. Sure, the effectiveness is less due to fewer spells, but you've suddenly got a second wizard casting like he's a level 4. Its a way of putting additional pressure on. Though the possibility of a SM casting at +7 is fairly ridiculous...

Gaargod
07-09-2011, 20:38
I think someone had their maths wrong on the previous page? One hydra is 175pts, 2 mournfangs with champ/musician + ironfists only come to 150pts, to my mind?
The idea itself bears merit however. I had been thinking previously in terms of taking 3 or 4, but 2 units of 2 might actually be more efficient than 1x4. And it's not like you're going to need to have more than 3 units!


As nice as Grut's Sickle is, I don't think there's going to be room! Consider: Hellheart is an incredibly useful item. Dispel Scroll is also rather helpful... The sickle is incredibly angry, and I think people are slightly exaggerating its downsides (1/36 chance of killing himself... Well, that's life. It will probably do about 3 wounds worth of ogres throughout the battle too - only use it when strictly necessary), but Hellheart is stupid good.
Also means if you're taking, say Talisman of Endurance/Armour of Destiny on the slaughtermaster and a scroll, you have some points to play with for a magic weapon if you so wished. Whereas with Grut's Sickle, you're pretty much immediately out of points.


I'd agree with the others, 2 Ironblasters deserves to be auto-include, along with the 3 cats.

Vsurma
07-09-2011, 21:29
On the Sickle I think you can look at it in 2 ways.

First it is expensive, 90% of ogre players are going to be putting their SM in with a unit of IGs so the cost of the sickle is the cost of the item itself AND 1-2 dead ironguts.

Total cost 130pts if you use it every turn, sure you might not buut, truthfully after turn 1 you probably will be using it every turn.

Add to this taht with the 1/36 (close to 3%) chance of your slaughtermaster dieing (and you losing the game more often than not when this happens) this adds to the cost, in fact the chance of your slaughtermaster being alive after 6 turns of using the sickle is only 84%. So besides taking into account the fact that when your SM dies from the sickle you often lose, we could add 16% of the SM cost to the equation.

Basically your up to about 200tps in cost at this point. DAIM! that is an expensive item.

But forget that, lets see if it is worth it.
Your SM goes form +4/5 to cast to +6/7.

The real advantage here is that most of your spells can be cast with 2 spells. The average cast with 2 dice and the added SM/sickle bonus is 13-14, most of your opponents will have +4 to dispel which means trying to dispel will more often than not require 4 dispel dice.

4 dispel dice vs your 2 to cast. This is the power of the sickle. Also seeing as normally your opponent has only d6 dispel dice, there is a good chance this means that with the sickle you will be getting an extra spell off per turn.

This is basically what it comes down to Imo, taking the sickle lets you get 1 extra spell per turn. 2 spells rather than 1, 3 rather than 2.

Is that worth the cost, the cost of an arcane slot, 100+ points and a chance to lose your SM.

Personally I thought at first this item would be awesome, especially with the +1 from the lore itself but after really considering the cost I am going with no.

It also really forces you to take a 2nd wizard to carry a dispel scroll as there is no way I am taking an ogre army into battle without a scroll!

The cost is just "TO DAMN HIGH", but it probably depends on what kind of army you are running, if it makes a huge difference to get 2 spells off a turn rather than 1 then you just might want this item.

As far as the cav go, they are our ultimate unit, if the enemy runs at you with a horde, possibly a deathstar or anything else nasty, you really have to have something to throw at them. Imo this is where the cav come in.

4 with banner is nice but expensive. 4 without is still good. 2*2 have a different role, they can be good against many a unit but not against the most powerful units in which case you had best have something else against them.

For their cost nothing really beats the cav imo.

fruitystu
07-09-2011, 21:53
If I'm using it on Ironguts, then I'm doing it wrong. Keep a Thundertusk nearby, and trust to bulls. Slicey dicety, oncey twicey, mahoosive bonus to my magic for minimum outlay.

Plus, bit of Trollguts means I get the bonus for free, 50% of the time.....

Madcapmushroom
07-09-2011, 21:56
Hi All,

My buddies all dropped around to my gaming room today and we decided to "play-test" the Ogres. we played three 2k games and one 3k game. Here are some of the things we noticed: (im drinking all day and this is all from memory so try not nerdrage if i have points a lil wrong)

Mournfang Cavalry are scary. the usual formation for these guys was a unit of 3, with 2+ save and 6+ parry. when they charge they did some serious damage. These guys should never be underestimated.

Maneaters with scout, pistols and poison were expensive yet effective. in almost every game they made their points back within 2 turns.

Ogre Bulls: IMO these guys were the real highlight. we discovered that fielded as 18models,(6x3) with shields they did some colossal damage. sure the unit was around 500 points. but when it gets a charge off. oh my god!!!! 6 str 6 impact hits, 54 str 4 attacks and 6 str stomps. ( granted this was against other horde units).

A few downsides we did discover.

fanatics and mangeler squigs will cut you up.

Skulls of the foe from TK nearly broke an army on turn 1.

Casket of souls hurts like hell against such low LD.

A vampire lord can eat a tyrant :D

Anyway, just a few bits we discovered. I know most of this has been covered but just thought id throw in my experience.

Oh, and did i mention that mournfang hurt :rolleyes:

stonehorse
07-09-2011, 23:23
I'm so impressed with the Mournfang that I have bought a unit of 4 for myself. I wasn't going to get any, but seeing how devastating they are, and how they provide some much needed long range threat I couldn't resist any longer.

sturguard
07-09-2011, 23:48
Hey guys, what about putting the Gut Sickle on a Firebelly? Most people are talking about using a level 4 Slaughtermaster and I agree, I hate the idea of losing him on snake eyes, but with a 3+ to cast, that level 1 firebelly is more than capable of pulling off Fireball with 1 die along with Cascading Fire-Cloak and spells 2-4 with 2d6, not too shabby. You are also getting an ogre with decent cc attacks and a breath weapon. If he rolls snake eyes you lose 170 pts as opposed to 300-something. Also, I was thinking of putting the Ruby Ring of Ruin on my Slaughtermaster, that way I can hit a unit with the fireball spell and let the Firebelly get d3 to his casting roll if he targets them as well- is this a decent idea?

sturguard
07-09-2011, 23:49
One more thing, aren't units of 2 mournfangs a bit too fragile, I mean if they lose 1 model the unit lacks bite, whereas a unit of 3 has more or less an expendible model.

Coldblood666
08-09-2011, 00:01
I was thinking about running multiple units of 2 Mournfangs. I think units of 3+ have too big of a footprint and may prove a pain when trying to manoeuvre around very large units of Ogres.

Malorian
08-09-2011, 01:29
I wonder how many empire players are here as secret agents...

"Yeah yeah, take mournfangs! Don't take a lot of cheap bulls, no, take lots of those expensive things."

The Satyr
08-09-2011, 02:46
"Yeah yeah, take mournfangs! Don't take a lot of cheap bulls, no, take lots of those expensive things."
Expensive? Iron fist only cav cost 1 more pt then 2 bulls and they do a lot more than 2 bulls.

Vsurma
08-09-2011, 05:31
You want to take a lv1 firebelly then sacrifice units and pay through the nose to get +2 to cast?

How about you just upgrade the firebelly to a level two, get half the the effect for 1/4 of the price... Imo it is an item for magic dominance so at the very least you would take it on a lv2.

Still a lv2 has only 2 spells so I am not sure it will give you dominance, especially since the other spell may not be useful every turn and depending on your opponent he might just absorb the hits you throw at him..

With a lv4 SM you get your +6-7 to cast which actually means the opponent has to throw an extra dispel dice at pretty much any spell he wants to dispel. The spells also do a lot more when you look at the army they are in.

Sure a fireball is nice but most armies can absorb the 2d6 hits without it ruining the game.

+1S,T or regen on an ogre unit that just charged or even that is about to be charged is a lot harder to absorb.

Look at the armylists most people are making. They tend to have about 4 main units in it, bull unit, irongut unit, cav unit and ME unit. Give any one of the above buffs to these units and their power goes up exponentially. Because of this the enemy HAS to dispel them, or at least try to.

With fire I don't think the threat is so dire so I wouldn't use the sickle on a firebelly.

stonehorse
08-09-2011, 09:45
Just noticed that the Ironblaster isn't listed as a Warmachine, but rather a Chariot. Does this mean I could stand and Shot with it's Massive Grapeshot special rule?

I know it is stretching the rules a bit, and I can see it being FAQed (along with the Greedyfist), but just think if the FAQ rules in favour of it being able to Stand and Shot.

The more I read of the new Ogre book the more in love I become... Ironblasters are ace, glad I have two.

Has anyone tried putting units of 10 Gnoblars with Trappers an inch in fron t of a unit of Leadbelchers? The Leadbelchers being so tall and the Gnoblars being so small means that the Leadbelchers fire over the Gnoblars, who will act as a good speed bump thanks to stand and shot and Trappers.

Vsurma
08-09-2011, 10:44
Not sure if you can but even if you can your likely still going to have modifiers for:
long range
multiple shot
charged

So hitting on 6s. So whether it can or not isn't going to be huge, 1 S10 hit most of the time. matters not when charged by anything but a monster.

Mutter
08-09-2011, 12:12
I wonder how many empire players are here as secret agents...

"Yeah yeah, take mournfangs! Don't take a lot of cheap bulls, no, take lots of those expensive things."

Apples and oranges.

Last night, I mathhammered my bulls against ghuls. And cried a little.
But then I remembered my 'fangs, and mathhammered THEM, and then I did a little happy dance.

They are not the same, and they aren't interchangeable. Both are great, and both have their uses, but saying: Take cheap bulls, because they are way better' just doesn't cut it.

Coldblood666
08-09-2011, 14:27
Yea I agree. My army is going to be based on multiple big units of Bulls and multiple small units of Mournfang cavalry to support the Bull blocks.

Avian
08-09-2011, 15:09
@ Stonehorse: The Ironblaster fires like something that can't stand & shoot. Don't get your hopes up. In every similar case, GW has confirmed that the non-war machine works like a war machine.

loveless
08-09-2011, 16:15
I wonder how many empire players are here as secret agents...

"Yeah yeah, take mournfangs! Don't take a lot of cheap bulls, no, take lots of those expensive things."

You've been opposed to nearly every new unit in the book every time I see you in an Ogre thread. I wonder if you aren't the secret agent :p

Mournfangs are one of the better additions to the army - fast, hitty, and durable (and not that terribly expensive in points or money for what they do).

They provide a threat that isn't really matched by Bulls - and they pack a lot of punch into one impressively-sized package.

I'm not saying ignore the Bulls by any means - stock up on them. However, you shouldn't ignore your other options. An army of all Core units is dreadfully boring.

Fajita!
08-09-2011, 18:54
I played empire against my friend's ogres with the new book yesterday.


I'm going to tell you guys right now; if you are not running 3x1 (maybe one group of two) sabertusks, then you are doing it wrong. At 10.5 slaves each, they might just be the best unit in the new book.

Doommasters
08-09-2011, 21:16
I played empire against my friend's ogres with the new book yesterday.


I'm going to tell you guys right now; if you are not running 3x1 (maybe one group of two) sabertusks, then you are doing it wrong. At 10.5 slaves each, they might just be the best unit in the new book.

IMO they are the most tactical unit in the game, why?


You can take them in units of 1. What this means is you can run 3 units of 1 giving you 3 turns in deployment where you do not have to place an expensive unit. HE egales cost twice the amount for arguably the same job.

Most armies take 1-2 big blocks which reduces the total units they have to place which gives you superior deployment (huge advantage), not many armies can drop 3 single units for a fraction over 20 points.

They are also good in combat for their points and can deal with warmachines, (low leadership so keep them 6 away from your units).

Next best thing is they force your opponent to make tough decisions, do you use some cannon fire on a single unit? Or do you use a unit of archers? Or do you leave them and have them take out warmachine crews.

IMO they could just be the best unit in the OK army :wtf:

Gaargod
09-09-2011, 00:24
Yeah, that's pretty much been the line people have been taking since the first rumour ages ago pointed out they could be taken units of 1.

All fairness, the cats are angry. 3 Ws4 S4 attacks each. If you put 2 of them into a wizards face, the enemy has issues.

A) The cats are seriously quick with Mv8, swiftstride and vanguard. Depending on how away they started, you can quite easily face the possibility of losing your whole unit to a couple of 21pts cats. Thus, fleeing is not an easy option.

b) So, let's assume you allow them to charge. Cats are hitty. Let's take an empire wizard without gear: Average of 16/9 wounds. That's enough to make someone take pause. Even if you've got a decent ward save... you're still going to think twice about it. Worse, as the cats aren't champions, you can always get two against the wizard, unless he's on the flank.

c) You know what else Ogres have for character hunting? Sniping Maneaters with pistols. If they've already put a wound (or two on lords), sabre tusks can easily finish them off.

d) If at all fails, its still only 44pts. So is it really worth spending time on killing them?

Malorian
09-09-2011, 00:42
An army of all Core units is dreadfully boring.

Boring yet effective ;)

I do agree though, it's hard to go wrong with the sabretusks. Those things are amazing in so many ways.

The more I've looked at it the more I can see a place for the knights, and yet there is risk, whereas just a bunch of bulls is solid and always good.

Doommasters
09-09-2011, 00:46
They make there points up before the game even begins, anything else they achive after that is a bonus.

If i was not a WE player, with lots of GG units I would be pulling my hair out trying to deal with these guys. Unless you have small units to deal with them, any diverted firepower is not be optimaly used, but you don't have a choice.

Honestly not a single unit it the Ogre book that compares to these guys in cost to benefit ratio.

Sabers ROCK!

Aschen
09-09-2011, 04:50
Question. Trappers for Gnoblars?

Avian
09-09-2011, 06:03
Depends on whether or not you think your opponent is likely to charge them in the front. If he wasn't going to charge them anyway, it's a small amount of wasted points. You could build your strategy around several small Trapper units, but I think they are too easy to get rid off and units of 20-ish are better.

Coldblood666
09-09-2011, 06:06
So what would you use in a 2500pt list, 4 units of 2 Sabretusks or 4 units of 1? Other?

minionboy
09-09-2011, 06:17
So what would you use in a 2500pt list, 4 units of 2 Sabretusks or 4 units of 1? Other?

3 Units of 1, because 4 units would be against the rules. :P

Coldblood666
09-09-2011, 08:21
Oh that's right, max 3, not 4 on like units :D

I'm thinking about getting chaos hounds and painting them with lion stripes and using them as Sabretusks, so I'd want to use all 10. So 1 unit of 4 and 2 units of 3? I also was going to convert a Hunter so maybe he would go well with the unit of 4 Sabretusks.

Mutter
09-09-2011, 08:33
A) The cats are seriously quick with Mv8, swiftstride and vanguard. Depending on how away they started, you can quite easily face the possibility of losing your whole unit to a couple of 21pts cats. Thus, fleeing is not an easy option.



They only get vanguard if deployed with a hunter, no?

superawesomeraptorman
09-09-2011, 10:24
They only get vanguard if deployed with a hunter, no?

Tis true, a lot of people are giving sabretusks a little too much credit.

They are still great, but certainly do not get vanguard without the hunter

lasergreger
09-09-2011, 10:51
If only the look of the models were as positive as their usage/stats >_<

*sigh* Looks like I am gonna have to try and revise my army again to fit in 3 x 1 of these. Then I need to find some good models for them, I kinda like the idea of these three solo beasts prowling around the battlefield :)

Mid'ean
09-09-2011, 11:16
How about these?

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/P-65%20Heavy%20Metal/latest/65113

http://www.reapermini.com/FigureFinder#detail/03570

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/P-65%20Heavy%20Metal/latest/65017

I picked up 4 of the bottom model on ebay and he looks pretty good. I plan to add a couple of the middle ones and I'll be good to go.

stonehorse
09-09-2011, 11:26
Use Wargs, GW have 6 for 10.50. If you play in a GW shop they are legal.

Vaiuri
09-09-2011, 12:19
I notice a Slaughtermaster can take an Ironfist (6+ armour save), does this mean I can give him magic armour since he can take the Fist as part of his normal selection as with Vamps and Warriors?

saitani
09-09-2011, 12:39
Yes:)

Random letters

Mutter
09-09-2011, 13:02
I notice a Slaughtermaster can take an Ironfist (6+ armour save), does this mean I can give him magic armour since he can take the Fist as part of his normal selection as with Vamps and Warriors?

It's hotly debated. Wait for an FAQ ...

Gaargod
09-09-2011, 13:03
They only get vanguard if deployed with a hunter, no?

Oops, my bad. You are quite correct.

To be honest, I was actually thinking vanguard was a bit wasted on them, as you can't charge first turn if you use it anyways, from memory.

Slaughtermaster can indeed take armour. Debatable whether its worth doing though. A lot of builds are currently giving him a 4++ or 5++. At that stage, you might decide 'hey, what the hell', and pay the 5pts more to make it into heavy armour with said ward save. If you give him an ironfist too, you can easily be walking around with 4+/4++.
As I say though... is it really necessary? He's really quite hard to kill.

Interestingly, he might not be quite as hard as everyone is making him out to be - after all, you get 2 combat phases to each magic phase. If you get unlucky on your magic phase and only cast 1 or 2 spells, you could very easily lose an unprotected SM. But just knowing he can heal his hurts away is likely to be a psychological pain in the ass for the opponent, so they'll probably not even try.

Mercules
09-09-2011, 13:38
It's hotly debated.

I wouldn't say hotly. I would say a bunch of people who haven't read the new Ogre Book and still think the Ironfist can be used as a weapon have been saying it can't while most people who have read the actual wording in the book have gone... "Oh look, it's a shield that grants a Parry save when mounted." and realized that is armor.

Vaiuri
09-09-2011, 13:44
Given the army book says it works 'like a shield', which gives an ARMOUR save, I'm all for allowing magic armour to be taken - my question was more on the subject of is this possible rather than good/bad/ugly.

One interpretation that was sent my way was that a magic Ironfist could be taken but not amour as in a suit of armour - but I think this goes off the definition of what magical armour is, does it cover shields, helm, suits etc... or ONLY suits of armour?

Mutter
09-09-2011, 13:58
Given the army book says it works 'like a shield', which gives an ARMOUR save, I'm all for allowing magic armour to be taken - my question was more on the subject of is this possible rather than good/bad/ugly.


It works like a shield, gives an armour save - BUT it's listed among the weapons, and disallwos other weapons (which shields don't do), I can see the other side, too.

*shrug*

I got no stake in this either way, I use him without armour anyway, but I don't agree with EITHER side that claims that there is NO room for debate.
That's all ...

(And I call 5+ pages on TWF on just this subject not something minor ... ;))

Wargamejunkie
09-09-2011, 14:10
(And I call 5+ pages on TWF on just this subject not something minor ... ;))

Then again what discussion there doesn't take 5+ pages? Still a good read though.

Personally I am a bit upset about out magic weapons being so expensive. Maybe I am missing it, but I don't see why some are 85pts.


What are peoples thoughts on unit size for scouting Maneaters? My current test list has a unit of 6, but I was thinking perhaps 4 would be enough.

Mercules
09-09-2011, 14:19
It works like a shield, gives an armour save - BUT it's listed among the weapons, and disallwos other weapons (which shields don't do), I can see the other side, too.

*shrug*

I got no stake in this either way, I use him without armour anyway, but I don't agree with EITHER side that claims that there is NO room for debate.
That's all ...

(And I call 5+ pages on TWF on just this subject not something minor ... ;))

"...BUT it's listed among the weapons..."

"Special Ogre Weapons" are listed on the right side of page 32. Notice which piece of ~equipment~ is not listed in that category. ;)

Saying:

May choose one of the following:
-Xtra HW
-GW
-Ironfist

Doesn't mean it is a weapon, it means if you choose one of the other pieces of equipment you can't choose an Ironfist.

Oh, and 5+ pages on TWF is hardly major. You have obviously been there. :)

Mercules
09-09-2011, 14:27
What are peoples thoughts on unit size for scouting Maneaters? My current test list has a unit of 6, but I was thinking perhaps 4 would be enough.

I've been working with 3 in a 2.2 list. Seem to get the job of distracting the enemy and moving them in the wrong direction done. Still not cheap at that point cost but will chew up a WS 3 To3 unit fairly well. The other nice thing is that it is not such a big threat they focus on it with everything but still big enough they have to pull over a couple units to deal with it.

Lunchmoney
09-09-2011, 14:55
After 3 games my opponents have quickly discovered it is worth their time to focus entirely on my unit of six scout poison BoOP Maneaters unless they want to be in a world of hurt. After they realized that I put the 3 sabretusks in my lists along with those scouting units. Now they claim the new book has made Ogres a top tier army. I don't necessarily agree with that assessment, but it is a lot tougher to play against OK now.

My hardest decision making process now is whether or not to put two of those ME units in. One with Scout poison and the flaming banner, the other with vanguard swiftstride and ahw. It's expensive, but the ability to provide two very high threat units in your opponent's face by turn two is damn near worth it.

minionboy
09-09-2011, 15:00
It works like a shield, gives an armour save - BUT it's listed among the weapons, and disallwos other weapons (which shields don't do), I can see the other side, too.

So, you're saying it's armor because there are other items which are weapons in the same list? If it was called a "Shield" then by your deduction, it would not be armor either... It's also not listed under the "Ogre Weapons" section of the book, it's under equipment, and states that it works exactly like a shield (except continues to say you can parry while mounted). I hate to say it, but there really isn't room for debate once you read the book.

That sillyness aside, I am trying to figure out how to sculpt an appropriate battle-wizard looking Butcher in plate armor.

Mercules
09-09-2011, 15:13
That sillyness aside, I am trying to figure out how to sculpt an appropriate battle-wizard looking Butcher in plate armor.

Not that hard. If you look at most Ogre models with Heavy Armor it consists of some pieces of chainmail, heavy helm of some sort, and chunks of metal riveted to their hide in various places. Glue on a Shield from some other race's sprue here and there and you are good to go.

Minigiant
09-09-2011, 16:08
So whats everyones thinking on the best core unit set up. As Iron guts used to be the bees knees but now...i think bulls have more of a place and im struggling to decide what combination i should spend 500pts on

Fzargg
09-09-2011, 16:22
As a very, very new Ogre(and Warhammer Fantasy) player, my opinion of the Ogre Core selections might be a little wonky, but at the moment I'm leaning towards a large-ish unit of plain Ogres as a great utility unit, that can definitely do the business that Ogres need to do.

I'm looking at a unit of 18 of them(6x3), with additional hand weapons, and a full command for my 2000 point list. That's a pretty beefy block, lots of wounds, and pretty nice damage output. That said, I'm also looking at Ironguts, if only because I like the looks of them, and that high Strength attacks are pretty mandatory in my book. In regards to Ironguts, I was thinking a unit 12-strong(6x2 or 4x3) with full command would be about right. If needed, this unit could be shrunk down to 8-strong.

That's what I'm looking at as a good Core setup at the moment. When it comes to spending points on Core now, however, I'm not sure we should be aiming to just spend the 500 point minimum in a 2000 points list. Our Cores are pretty solid, and as such, I think it's totally fine, and maybe even a good idea, to go over the 500 points if and when necessary. In my mind, that's one points investment that I'm sure will pay for itself.

Fzargg

minionboy
09-09-2011, 19:36
I'm looking at a unit of 18 of them(6x3), with additional hand weapons, and a full command for my 2000 point list. That's a pretty beefy block, lots of wounds, and pretty nice damage output. That said, I'm also looking at Ironguts, if only because I like the looks of them, and that high Strength attacks are pretty mandatory in my book. In regards to Ironguts, I was thinking a unit 12-strong(6x2 or 4x3) with full command would be about right. If needed, this unit could be shrunk down to 8-strong.

The problem with 18 with xHW's is that you're only getting extra attacks with the models in the front rank, which is going to be 6 at best, Ironfists on the other hand give everyone a better save always.

I'm still not liking hordes either for ogres in 8e, they tend to be prohibitively large and difficult to maneuver, especially when you follow the rules for terrain and have more than just a couple pieces. Aside from the maneuverability, you're also spending a lot of points on hordes which means less points for support for those units.

KSpen
09-09-2011, 20:09
Dont the new ME cost as much as the IGs in the old book? So, wouldnt you rather get 1 extra WS 1 extra attack, S5, I3 is major vs half the armies out there or at least go same time, better stomp/impacts, plus 2 bonus attribs and no ASL? Theyre such an anchor with stubborn, who needs Gut magic? 4 wide with AHW thats 20 WS4 S5 attacks until you lose the back row. Hell, swiftstride and theyre 1" slower than empire/bret/chaos knights.

Just pretend theyre IGs from the last book^

Then again, all the upgrades make them the same cost as Mournfangs and not do as much damage.

I just cant justify the Stonehorn/Thundertusk in 2k games I usally play, without compensating elsewhere severely. At least in the last book our big ticket was a naff giant.

I think, as time goes on, people will eventually go back to 2-3 big blocks of ogres/IGs as they are more efficient than the new toys (our ogres win the day, at the end of the day:).

The Ironblaster seems alright, at least it can move with the army and do something to aid combat res.

I still think itll go back to how we played the old book, but with a few tweaks to iron out the weaknessess of said playstyle, with the more flexibility we have ie sabres, Scouts and a cannon.

With the so expensive lord/hero choices and rares, with the massively cool specials we have, the poor ogre will suffer and theyre what wins games.

Avian
09-09-2011, 20:40
They are rather more than the old Ironguts if you give them heavy armour and great weapons. They are 2 pts more expensive with just hand weapons and light armour.

KSpen
09-09-2011, 21:35
Fair dos. I still argue we dont need S6 as much as we used to, now with the cannon and poison options.

The old IG 'star' was around 500pts, you can do the same with ME now which are more survivable with I3 and WS4 eh.

Mercules
09-09-2011, 21:58
The old IG 'star' was around 500pts, you can do the same with ME now which are more survivable with I3 and WS4 eh.

Really not that much more survivable. Same To4 and same 5+ Armor save if you pay extra. They are still hit on 4s by all the WS 3 things, only Elite troops hit them any less and really only Dwarves, Mon_Inf, Monsters, Saurus, and the like strike after them.

decker_cky
09-09-2011, 22:01
The problem with 18 with xHW's is that you're only getting extra attacks with the models in the front rank, which is going to be 6 at best, Ironfists on the other hand give everyone a better save always.

I'm still not liking hordes either for ogres in 8e, they tend to be prohibitively large and difficult to maneuver, especially when you follow the rules for terrain and have more than just a couple pieces. Aside from the maneuverability, you're also spending a lot of points on hordes which means less points for support for those units.

Remember that you can always run that horde 3 wide so you have 6 ranks for negating steadfast. Gnoblars won't beat anything, but 18 ogres stands a very good chance of killing enough to break a unit of 45ish slaves/goblins in a round of combat (and very likely to do so in 2 rounds).

The Satyr
09-09-2011, 22:13
Remember that you can always run that horde 3 wide so you have 6 ranks for negating steadfast. Gnoblars won't beat anything, but 18 ogres stands a very good chance of killing enough to break a unit of 45ish slaves/goblins in a round of combat (and very likely to do so in 2 rounds).Plus it gives them S10 impact hits, imagine get D3 on that charge...

decker_cky
09-09-2011, 22:28
S10 impact hits are good threats against sphynxes and steamtanks too.

EndlessBug
09-09-2011, 22:43
I just cant justify the Stonehorn/Thundertusk in 2k games I usally play, without compensating elsewhere severely. At least in the last book our big ticket was a naff giant.

I confess I havent played against or with the new ogres, however I really really believe that the thundertusk is a godsend.

I see people complain that the Ogres are just as squishy as before with low armour and low initiative, I agree!

2 Cannons and 1 Thundertusk solves all of these problems (well most of).

2 cannons - deal with their war machines and big griblies.

Thundertusk - they're now striking last, you can strike before that nasty nasty hard hitting unit. Granted it's only 6" range so a bit tricky, but still, it's potential is devastating. That and its a stone thrower.

Bung in a unit of 3-6 sniper maneaters and some leadbelchers and you have your mage killers and infantry killers.

Sure you'll be lacking in the hard hitting combat units somewhat, but fill your core with a sizeable unit of Ironguts and a large unit of Ogres and you should have combat sorted too.

I personally see the potential for such a list as massive.

The Satyr
09-09-2011, 23:22
Thundertusk is pretty hard hitting too, 5-10 S6 attacks (stomps) and 2 bulls on its back that are worth 60pts alone and they both got ranged weapons, really you're only paying about 170pts for the monster.

KSpen
10-09-2011, 00:30
Well sure, its got 2 ogres who can shoot too! im sure its great at 2250+

Well the wording wrongs as per model in 6", it cost like 8 bulls, if you take 2 Ironblasters (in 2k) you can also use them as a chariot and youre getting almost the same damage (impact hits instead of stomp) output, with a better save. And you got 2 of em!

The Thundetusk is just so cumbersome, you cant have it behind a unit 3 deep as the 6" ASL wont reach, if you put it to the side its at risk of a charge.

Im not a tactical genius, but its my feel after a couple of games.

Hey, anyway, im going to bulk my core with units of x50 gnoblars with traps, put em right in front of an enemy unit and please charge me :)

I play OnG too, so usually anchor (night gobs) them and sent the chaff on the flanks, except our 'chaff' comes in the form of ogres, IGs, MEs & Mournfangs :evilgrin:

Fzargg
10-09-2011, 06:12
@minionboy: That's a really good point regarding the additional hand weapons vs ironfists on a unit of Ogres 18-strong. I've actually been looking for a good reason to equip my basic Ogres with ironfists(mainly because I dig their look a lot, and think they're very cool and "ogrey"), and your point regarding them is pretty much it. Thanks very much for setting me straight on that. I agree with your reasoning on the matter, and definitely see the advantage that ironfists would have over additional hand weapons on such a unit. Thanks very much!

Edit: I'm also still struggling a bit with how to equip my unit of 4 Mournfang Cavalry, whether it's going to be ironfists or great weapons. I know there's been quite a bit of discussion regarding this already, and I'm thinking it's pretty much going to come down to each Ogre player's personal preference. Still though, any thoughts on this would be great to see as well.

Fzargg

minionboy
10-09-2011, 06:27
@minionboy: That's a really good point regarding the additional hand weapons vs ironfists on a unit of Ogres 18-strong. I've actually been looking for a good reason to equip my basic Ogres with ironfists(mainly because I dig their look a lot, and think they're very cool and "ogrey"), and your point regarding them is pretty much it. Thanks very much for setting me straight on that. I agree with your reasoning on the matter, and definitely see the advantage that ironfists would have over additional hand weapons on such a unit. Thanks very much!

Edit: I'm also still struggling a bit with how to equip my unit of 4 Mournfang Cavalry, whether it's going to be ironfists or great weapons. I know there's been quite a bit of discussion regarding this already, and I'm thinking it's pretty much going to come down to each Ogre player's personal preference. Still though, any thoughts on this would be great to see as well.

Fzargg

Wow, someone actually listened to me!

I am just building my mournfangs right now, going to play some games tomorrow with them. As much as I really want Great Weapons on them, going from a 2+/6++ to a 3+ is a huge difference. If you took 9 s3 wounds on those saves, you're taking 3 wounds with the 3+, but only 1.25 with the Iron Fists, meaning there is a good chance that Mournfang will live to strike. An ogre can't attack much when he's dead.

If you're going to use the Mournfangs to hunt monsters though, then I definitely say go with the Great Weapons and Banner of Eternal Flame. Many monsters are striking at S6, so reducing your 2+ to a 5+ or your 3+ to a 6+, not a huge difference, but wounding on 3's with S6 (vs T5) or wounding on 5's with clubs could be huge.

For attacking basic infantry, the Ironfist is king, but if you're fighting against high S/T units a lot, such as Chaos Warriors with Halberds, monsters, etc., then the Great Weapon could have an advantage. Personally, I'm going with the Ironfists because I have Ironblasters to solve the other problems.

Fzargg
10-09-2011, 06:35
Thanks, minionboy! I was actually leaning towards the ironfists for the Mournfangs as well, but those are very good points regarding attacking more heavily armoured and high Toughness/monster types...it's a tough call. In fact, I was just about to ask what you'd consider using to take out said monster/high Toughness things if not the Mournfangs, and then you answered it; the Ironblaster. Score.

I'm definitely planning on having one of them in my 2000 point list, along with a Thundertusk, so I guess that should go some way in dealing with said problems. Also, I'm sure I'll manage to have a high Strength character in there somewhere too, not to mention the Ironguts, with which to deal with those things too. So, it's looking like my Mournfangs may end up being incredible infantry crushers.

Thanks again, minionboy!

Fzargg

AussieSocks
10-09-2011, 09:05
6 wounds that, in combat, have to be distributed between the musician and the champion.

As in Wound Allocation ala 40k?

Explain?

3 counters to Poisoin Pistol Maneaters:
a) 2nd wave bunkers ala Vampires
b) Skirmishing Bunkers
c) a ward save

Hope your opponents aren't putting 2 wound wizards in the fronk rank of their combat blocks.

drear
10-09-2011, 09:11
played my first game with the new book yesturday vs beastmen.
very fun game of watchtower.

a few things i noticed:

bulls need to be in units of 11+ any less than they reach combat at little to no effectivness. and higher they make the opponent nervous of the unit.
running them at around 11 in this game they were wonderful. running 3 wide they kick out 24 attacks with xhw, to a similar frontage , and because the opponents running 5-6 wide, your getting 12/18 attacks back. then theres stomp and impacts ! its alot of wounds.

SM in a challange is rather epic. if you give him armour of destiny adn an ironfist he can go toe to toe with alot of heroes/lords and live.
casting gut magic every turn re-gains his wounds aswell!
i held out 4 turns against a beastlord with a magical mace

the thundertusk is a confusing unit to play with. i want to keep it genrally away from stuff to shoot. but i want its frost aura. so it does need to advance 6 a turn , and shoot whilst it moves.

watching a game after mine, mournfang cavalry with ironfists are devistating. 4 charged a unit of 50 ungor, and caused about 15-16 wounds, and took none back.
this was without the dragonhide banner!

ogres owning a cannon is a massive thing. being able to point at a chariot, and auto kill it is a thing of beauty.

speaking of shooting..theres a damn lot of it. i found myself feeling like id missed out not taking pistols on my maneaters, as they spent 2 turns out of combat just moving into charge range.

maneaters! i took4 of these. scout-swiftstride and xhw. they went through 3 minotaurs, 4 razorgor and a jabbersythe ( granted it was only on 1 wound) but in return they lost 2 maneaters over the course of 7 turns.
having str 5 and a high ws makes them very very good at harrying a flank.and str 5 seems to make it a silly idea to take greatweapons on them, as 5 attacks at str 5 are alot against the units they will be pitted against.

leadbelchers, kick out a ton of shots, but hit about as often as any low bs fire does in warhammer. they are best to protect a flank, and unload shots at close range.
the fact that they come with light armour is a massive boon, shrugging off alot of shots from bows etc, and still having a save against what gets through.

KSpen
10-09-2011, 09:46
Yeah it is hard to use (Thundertusk).

The cannons are great, but I struggle to field 2 at 2k.

ME S5 is awesome with I3 >TK, Vamps, Dwarfs, Ogres, Lizards, OnG...half of warhammer!

Im going to get me 3 ninja ones today, for scout and ItP & AHW. (hmm rules say only 2 can get into attacking a warmachine, so I guess ill get 2).

I still hate the fact, we have to spend 100 on a butcher, so our lvl 4 can choose a lore :mad:

Ugh, cant wait to try a shooty list with heavens.

Ultraloth
10-09-2011, 09:54
That sillyness aside, I am trying to figure out how to sculpt an appropriate battle-wizard looking Butcher in plate armor.

I'm willing to bet that a future FAQ will state that SM's can't take magic armour. I will agree that RAW they currently can, but I strongly suspect that they didn't intend them to. (If they did, they should have just given them the option to take regular armour.) You're running the risk of ending up with a model equiped with an invalid option.

Nixon2802
10-09-2011, 12:02
Just a question, Im not an Ogre Kingdoms player but I like the look of it and it seems like most of the units are good. What Unit choices are good, which are bad and what characters do you put in what units? Plus are the big beasties (Thundertusk and Stonehorn) worth it?

drear
10-09-2011, 12:17
units worth taking - everything

except - hunters, and yhetees, gorgers

their rolls can be filled elsewhere in the book. gorger is expensive for an ambusher that could potentially not turn up. and is 1 model.
id prefer maneaters for the job of hunting warmachines and skirmishers etc

yhetees are high str and i but are very fragile, cost alot.
you can just add more bulls and hit somthing harder. str 5 isnt hard to come by through buffs either.

hunters-

as a hero he cant be the bsb, and he isnt to great options wise. sure you can mount him..but its alot of points. without equiopemt.
he also eats up the space for a bsb and a butcher/firebelly in a smaller list.
he cant join units, and will be sniped out rather quickly.

raymon
10-09-2011, 12:23
I'm willing to bet that a future FAQ will state that SM's can't take magic armour. I will agree that RAW they currently can, but I strongly suspect that they didn't intend them to. (If they did, they should have just given them the option to take regular armour.) You're running the risk of ending up with a model equiped with an invalid option.

I Choose not to equip the guy in armour, cause it does not feel right. Fluffwise he is without gutplate to show off his massive belly. To much off a braggard in my opinion to where plate.

Nixon2802
10-09-2011, 12:25
@Drear, thanks for that, so its definitely a competitive book then? are the 2 beasties are mount for a hunter or just on there own. Which of them is better, or are they both rubbish?

drear
10-09-2011, 12:26
i cannot see why there is a issue with this. ironfists give you +1 armoursave and act as a sheild. sheilds are armour.
armour - magical armour?

why would a SM have the option for an ironfist if he couldnt use armour? its armour.


nixon:

its a great little book, they really looked at how monsterous infantry armies should work .
the hunter can take the stonehorn, its a combat beast.
rare selection then has an unridden stonehorn, or the thundertusk, which is a support beast, giving you a stonethrower 2 other ranged attacks and an ASL aura.
im taking the thundertusk currently because who doesnt want a t6 stone thrower that can hold itself up in combat, and charge if need be with a thunderstomp!

Nixon2802
10-09-2011, 12:49
Oh right, aha yeah making Elves (except high) Strike last is always fun, Stone thrower sounds good. Ive heard about that impact hits thing which sounds good, would you say the best unit in the book is the mournfangs. ive seen lots of positive reviews about it

drear
10-09-2011, 12:54
definitly, they are apprently one of the best cavalry units now. 2+save always d3 impacts, and a ton of attacks and wounds.
id love to see a list based around just mournfang cav. its a pity a tyrant cant take a mournfang as a mount .

Nixon2802
10-09-2011, 12:57
D3 Impact hits sound good, 3 of them could have a maximum of 9 impact hits, 3 ogre attacks, 4 mournfang attacks and 3 stomps, 19 attacks and 2+ 6++ if heavy armour and ironfists, brilliant

Avian
10-09-2011, 13:57
I'll build my Mournfangs with ironfist, but a lot of the reason is that I want to use the great weapons on my Ironguts. :D

sturguard
10-09-2011, 15:20
drear- although the hunter is not exceptional, he isn't bad. You can put him inside a unit of sabertusks and have vanguard similar to how people are running ME.

The biggest thing I see that people are dismissing is his LDR 9. The stonehorn and thundertusk both suffer from low ldr and need to stay near an army standard bearer or the general, with a hunter, all of a sudden you can put that stonehorn on a flank and not really have to worry about him breaking and running if he has to take a ldr test. I have heard several folks worry about the ME ldr of 8, once again, a unit of sabertusks with a hunter are ldr 9. I don't think he is the "optimal" choice, but I think he is viable.

hobbs3023
10-09-2011, 15:26
If he could wear armour... he'd be equipped w/ either light or hvy armour as well as the ironfist. Think about it. IMO... no magic armour for the SM.


i cannot see why there is a issue with this. ironfists give you +1 armoursave and act as a sheild. sheilds are armour.
armour - magical armour?

why would a SM have the option for an ironfist if he couldnt use armour? its armour.


nixon:

its a great little book, they really looked at how monsterous infantry armies should work .
the hunter can take the stonehorn, its a combat beast.
rare selection then has an unridden stonehorn, or the thundertusk, which is a support beast, giving you a stonethrower 2 other ranged attacks and an ASL aura.
im taking the thundertusk currently because who doesnt want a t6 stone thrower that can hold itself up in combat, and charge if need be with a thunderstomp!

Da Black Gobbo
10-09-2011, 15:39
Guys let me know what do you think about my army please :D.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317095

drear
10-09-2011, 16:00
If he could wear armour... he'd be equipped w/ either light or hvy armour as well as the ironfist. Think about it. IMO... no magic armour for the SM.





a sheild is armour,magical armour contains sheilds.
if you can take mundane armour you can take magical armour.

sturguard
10-09-2011, 17:46
Why is everyone dismissing the Hunter on Stonehorn with Crown of Command so quickly? Yes, he is a 400 pt unit, but he has ldr 9/stubborn, is easily healed since the stonehorn takes half dmg on multi wound attacks and can get enough armor to be hard to kill by anything but the most dedicated close combat characters. He also has BS 4 for his harpoon, which isnt bad.

narrativium
10-09-2011, 17:58
He can't get enough armour - once he has the crown, you've got 15 points of magic items allowance to play with. That will get you to maybe 4+ armour (Enchanted Shield) or a 6+ ward. He's still a T5 W4 character, and the ability to issue challenges will probably count you in good stead.

The reason I think people might be dismissing it is because at his points cost (and you have him at 425 points), you need to be playing a game at at least 2250 points to get a Butcher or BSB into your army. Players like the Hero choices. Don't get me wrong though - that sounds like an awesome choice to see on the table.

(I'm not sure where you think he's healing wounds from. It might be tricky to take a wound from the model but he'll never get them back.)

sturguard
10-09-2011, 18:48
Maybe I am wrong but you get +1 armor for being mounted right? If so, LA, Enchanted Shield, Mounted is 3+? You could then add the 6+ regen item.

Avian
10-09-2011, 19:57
That's not terribly great, though.

I just wish he could get a close combat weapon AND the crossbow AND a shield.

No-One
10-09-2011, 20:00
anyone else think the Firebelly with Fencer's Blades, or even a Slaughtermaster with Fencer's Blades is pretty much a no brainer?

sturguard
10-09-2011, 20:54
Why would you want to put them on a Firebelly? I can see a Slaughtermaster as he has more points to spend on other items.

sturguard
10-09-2011, 20:58
Does anyone like the Forbidden Rod on a Slaughtermaster given that you can recover wounds by casting spells- so lose 2 wounds, add d6 power dice then regain the lost wounds. It is cheaper than the Grut's Sickle and doesn't come with the chance of getting autokilled by your unit. +2 to your casting rolls is nice, but if you have say 6 power dice it might not affect how many spells you can throw, whereas if you roll 4-5 additional power dice you could possibly throw 2 more spells with the +5 from your slaughtermaster (And casting gut magic).- Nevermind, I just reread and it is one use only, there goes that idea.

Avian
10-09-2011, 21:06
I'd rather take the Power Stone / Scroll and NOT have to heal back D3 wounds afterwards. ;)

sturguard
10-09-2011, 21:11
Yeah, I misread, I thought it was usuable each turn.

No-One
10-09-2011, 21:13
yeah, i suppose you're right about the Firebelly

though i think it would be a good choice on a Slaughtermaster

anyone have any good suggestions for Firebelly builds? or are they better off just running them naked and saving points?

Deroga
11-09-2011, 00:23
As in Wound Allocation ala 40k?

Explain?

3 counters to Poisoin Pistol Maneaters:
a) 2nd wave bunkers ala Vampires
b) Skirmishing Bunkers
c) a ward save

Hope your opponents aren't putting 2 wound wizards in the fronk rank of their combat blocks.

Kind of like would allocation in 40k, in a sense that any enemy models that are ONLY in b2b with the champ (which will happen most of the time) can only attack him. This is unless i am mistaken. Overall it would add 1 or 2 more wounds worth before having to lose the model via combat.

Orangecoke
11-09-2011, 05:36
Hey guys, I'm about to assemble 4 mournfangs. Should I be putting a full command in them?

Barry "the blade"
11-09-2011, 05:46
Hey guys, I'm about to assemble 4 mournfangs. Should I be putting a full command in them?

I haven't gotten a game in yet, but if the unit costs 280 without command you might as well throw in the extra 30 for full command.

That's how I would do it, but I'm not drawing from experience with the unit...

minionboy
11-09-2011, 07:12
Why is everyone dismissing the Hunter on Stonehorn with Crown of Command so quickly? Yes, he is a 400 pt unit, but he has ldr 9/stubborn, is easily healed since the stonehorn takes half dmg on multi wound attacks and can get enough armor to be hard to kill by anything but the most dedicated close combat characters. He also has BS 4 for his harpoon, which isnt bad.

Easily healed? By what? Unfortunately while we do get Maw, Heavens, Death and Beasts, we don't have access to Life.

ashc
11-09-2011, 07:14
I think it's ref to bloodgruel.

Nedar
11-09-2011, 07:58
Hey guys, I'm about to assemble 4 mournfangs. Should I be putting a full command in them?

I think Musician and Standard Bearer are good choices...but not sure on a champion. Not sure on the champion...only 1 extra attack, you already have 7. So if you can spare 10 points, go for it. I'll prob run without.

Do remember than champions do not HAVE to accept challenges, so there's not really a negative besides you will lose your standard first (probably the main reason to not take one).

fruitystu
11-09-2011, 13:33
I'd always take a champion meself. Good fun for challenging out enemy heroes.

Regarding Maneaters....ran a big block yesterday with Scout and Vanguard. It was one hell of a shock for my opponents, shame about my positioning. More experimentation required on that one!

minionboy
11-09-2011, 16:53
I think it's ref to bloodgruel.

Except that bloodgruel doesn't work on other units, just the caseter


Hey guys, I'm about to assemble 4 mournfangs. Should I be putting a full command in them?

I'd build the champion anyhow, if you're doing hand weapon and iron fist, he'll just look slightly cooler, the only identifying piece is the handgun, and if you're putting a handgun on your unit champion, you're doing something wrong.

ashc
11-09-2011, 17:02
Good point, i missed that it was ref hunters. Perhaps he meant less likely to take crippling damage as opposed to actual healing?

narrativium
11-09-2011, 17:25
I think Musician and Standard Bearer are good choices...but not sure on a champion. Not sure on the champion...only 1 extra attack, you already have 7. So if you can spare 10 points, go for it. I'll prob run without.

Do remember than champions do not HAVE to accept challenges, so there's not really a negative besides you will lose your standard first (probably the main reason to not take one). I'd actually be tempted by the champion. You're talking about a 70-point model, probably 80, with impact hits, stomp and eight attacks, who's got half a chance in a challenge against non-combat characters. There's an Underdog bonus up for grabs.

Avian
11-09-2011, 17:36
Champion should be fine, cost considering, especially since you can spread wounds from shooting out more and last longer before you have to remove any models.

Coldblood666
11-09-2011, 17:45
I'm going to use Mournfangs in units of 2 to support my Stonehorn, so no command for me.

jtrowell
11-09-2011, 18:37
In a unit of 2, I would take at least the musician, swifth reform can be sometimes very useful on fast units that have been redirected to get them back to the fight as soon as possible.

minionboy
11-09-2011, 19:23
I'm going to use Mournfangs in units of 2 to support my Stonehorn, so no command for me.

I would take a Musician and a Champion, that way you can reform and force the enemy to allocate attacks. On that same note though, I'd never take a unit of 2.

Biff Gunhed
12-09-2011, 04:56
I'm thinking of starting Ogres but my gaming group often plays 1000pt games, and Ogres look like they might be tough to play at such small points.

Anyone have some ideas on how to approach 1000pts? What characters should I take? I'm thinking the Slaughtermaster is still worth including despite having no room to buy him any gear.

Vsurma
12-09-2011, 05:24
Yea slaughtermaster still sounds good, skip the bsb in 1k game.

Slaughtermaster and then the rest in normal ogres/guts what have you.

Run the SM in a unit of guts with dicipline banner and you have ld9 for the army at least.

Biff Gunhed
12-09-2011, 09:34
I suppose a Slaughtermaster and a Thundertusk in 1000pts is too much of a points sink though... :D

raymon
12-09-2011, 10:22
5 leadbelchers and a firebelly on a flank sounds like something your opponent has to think about. keeping the firebelly cheap. thoughts?

Barry "the blade"
13-09-2011, 01:57
I like the idea of a hunter, and the model. So now to find a roll for it that makes it worth the points investment (I'm not super competitive).

Here is what I'm thinking of. Hunter with 2 sabertusks to gain vanguard. I'll try to set up a turn 2 charge on the opponents level 4(or maybe a BSB).

I'll also will be running 4 sniper/poison maneaters. Not to kill the mage, but the champion of the unit the L4 is in.

Now the hunter has additional hand weapon, and greedy fist. That's 5 S6 attacks, and each hit takes away a magic level and a spell.

I know it's probably not the best use of the 400 or so points it will cost, but what do you think of the idea? Any changes you would suggest to improve the concept?

Avian
13-09-2011, 07:52
Surely people will see that one coming and not put the level 4 on the front line. That's an additional -2 to shoot at him behind cover and you can't immediately charge him.

Vsurma
13-09-2011, 08:32
Most armies these days really don't have many support units to hide mages in, especially with that scouting maneater unit lurking around. Imo if they are hiding their lv4 where they cannot be sniped, they are also hiding the unit they are in, in many cases this will be several hundred points in cost from the unit that are now not participating in the battle.

So if that is the case the maneaters can fire at something else and be happy they accomplished their task before the game even started.

You can choose never to fire their guns and just run them as a unit with a measly 20 S5 attacks.