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Mrandrenv
21-08-2011, 17:46
Hey there!

I'm new on the forums, and would really appreciate some tips and advice. Recently me and som buddies from childhood started played Warhammer again after a 10-15 years break.

We play only for fun and nothing serious. We sometimes merge our armies and play, for example 2vs2 battles, where each has an army of 1000-1500 pts.

I've decieded to focus 100% on dwarfs, and played 3 matches so far and still got ALOT to learn. Wasnt until yesterday I realised I need to put more focus on what runes I pick for my heroes.

We played a game yesterday with me, dwarfs 1000 pts, and my 2 allies - Lizardmen and Skaven (both 1000 pts each) making us together a 3000 pts army. (I know, not very realistic allies, but as I said, we just play for fun with close friends) and we were up against Greenskins and Dark Elfs (1500 pts each)

Both me and my friends are totally newbs to the game and we had no idea what we were up against when our opponents chose to go all out with magic. They totally ripped our army apart in 1st magic phase since our only mage was Slann on Lizardmen-side.

Basicly I had 2 canons, 30 warriors, 15 Longbeards, 18 Thunderers, Thane hero, Dragon Slayer and 10 Miners so I coudnt do anything.

I want to build a Dwarf army of 1500 pts with good magic resistance, and still be able to pick out large targets such as monsters.

After some reading I understand that Runesmith is the answer. How well can he stand against, say 2 enemy mages? I want to buff him to the max, and also help my core regiments defend themselfs to magic.

And as for large targets, whats the best choice; Canon or Grudge Thrower? My opponent knows how to avoid my canons line-of-sight so mostly they do nothing good but just sitting. How does Grudge Thrower work? Can they shoot above regiments, and do the target have to be in line-of-sight?

Thanks for helping a newbie out! =)

calnen
21-08-2011, 18:29
Lots there! First, keep up on the stunties. They take a little work to get right, but they have good fluff and can be a strong army in the game with a little practice.

1 - Magic. Dwarfs need magic defence. In a 1500 point list, I'd take 2 characters. Don't try and turn them into combat monsters. This can be done much more cheaply by normal Dwarfs with great weapons. So, first character would be a Runesmith, as general. He needs a rune of spellbreaking, a master rune of balance (which is outstanding), and a shield with a rune of stone. Try to keep him out of combat! But this gives him a 2+ save so he won't die *that* easily. He should be able to stop most enemy spells, but if your opponents are really keen on magic, you could upgrade him to a runelord, or add a second runesmith with another rune of spellbreaking and maybe a master rune of challenge, which is an outstanding rune.

2 - The only other character I would take in a game this size would be a Thane BSB. Make him very survivable (eg Master Rune of Gromril, and Rune of Resistance for a 1+ rerollable save) and stick him front-centre.

3 - War machines. At 1500 points, probably take 2 or 3. First, I always take a cannon with a Rune of Forging. There are posts somewhere with the maths on it, but a rune of forging basically makes a cannon much, much better than without one. If you face Hydras or Hellpits, you can add a rune of fire as well. If the enemy hides from your cannon then fair enough, but then it's still affecting the game for only 125 or 130 points, and will still have some targets to shoot at.
Second, a Grudge Thrower. Go with a Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetration, and an Engineer. This comes to a lot of points, but it can pay for itself with a single hit on an enemy formation. The Engineer makes it more reliable, and gives it an extra wound.
If you want, then add an organ gun for close-range firepower. Organ guns are basically a replacement for thunderers - try both out and see which your prefer.

4 - After this, go for blocks of around 30 troops. At least 2 big, sturdy blocks are needed.
Normal Dwarfs are good fighters. With shields, place them in deep, 5-wide steadfast blocks and they should hold out well against any but the best troops. Alternatively, you can give them great weapons and deploy them 10-models wide. 30 Strength 5 attacks is not to be sniffed at! Be aware though that even with great weapons, you will sometimes need to redeploy to go deep for steadfast, depending on what is coming at you.

Long reply! Hopefully some of that helps though. Theres lots of Dwarf - specific advice on Bugman's Brewery, another web forum.

Mrandrenv
21-08-2011, 18:54
Great reply! Thanks :)

Yea, I assume my runes on the Runesmiths should be magicdefensive focused, and how should I play them? Keep them in the back hiding behind the blocks?

I've also looked into Rune of Spellbreaking (or even Spelleater, but I won't afford that if I'm going Balance aswell) and it looks great. However, I can't afford the Rune of Stone since I already spent all my 75 Rune Points on him? (Balance 50pt, Spellbreaking 25pt)

And also, I can only wear one Master Rune per Army, but I can put Spellbreaker Rune on both Runesmiths if I deciede to have two aslong as they don't have same Rune combo? (Rune Rules: Rule of Pride)

What does "BSB" mean, when you refer to Thane BSB? ;P

On warmachines, if I had to take max 2, and the battlefield is really crowded, would a Grudge Thrower be a better choice? I actually downed the Orcs & Goblins Arachnarok Spider with 1 canon, but he will never again let the spider in line-of-sight after he learned that lesson. Would 1-2 Grudge Throwers aswell have a chance on killing the spider?

My idea so far are something like;

1 Runesmith (general?)
1 Thane Hero
30 Warriors w/ shield
Longbeards or Hammerers, number depending on points..
10 Ironbreakers
1-2 Grudge Thrower
And finally a gyrocopter if I still got some points left over

calnen
21-08-2011, 19:19
Yes, the runesmiths should be kept out of harm's way as far as possible, unless they have decent armour on them. They can be useful for guarding your war machines against light troops.

You're quite right about the magic items limit on the basic Runesmith - my mistake.

Regarding master runes, you can only take *each* master rune once in the army. You can have more than one overall, but can only (for example) take the master rune of balance once.

BSB meant Battle Standard Bearer, the 25-point upgrade that lets you reroll leadership tests. The reroll is crucial - keep that Thane protected! He's there to give rerolls, not to kill all the baddies himself.

The Grudge throwers might be able to down the spider (you'd need to hit it directly with the centre of the template), but a cannon will do so more often, and the grudge throwers are much better at taking care of the Savage Orcs, Black Orcs and so on that'll be coming your way. The Arachnarok will need to come out from behind that hill eventually, and if not, then your cannon has more than paid for itself! I find that having a range of war machines tends to work best.

Regarding that list, I'd drop the ironbreakers, and have at least 30 hammerers in that big block. They're excellent for their points, and because of Stubborn you can always deploy them as a Horde (10 wide) without worrying about your opponent having more ranks than you.

Gyrocopters are always fun! But be aware than it's a little over-costed (in terms of points). Its the only thing in the game that still has to roll a 4+ to hit something under its template, and if you want to fire its steam gun, it can only move 10 inches.

russellmoo
21-08-2011, 23:23
I would try something like this- similar build but is more or less maximized-

Runesmith- MR balance, r of spellbreaking, shield
Thane, Battle standard bearer, MR Gromril, r of resistance
14 Quarrellers with great weapons
30 warriors- (I prefer great weapons, however, if you prefer hand weapon and shield is still viable)
Cannon, r of forging, r of burning
Grudge thrower, 2 r of pen, r of accuracy
Fill up the rest of your points with Hammerers (I think you can get close to 30)

Not sure though- I don't feel like doing the math-

This gives you the crossbows- which work well as a bunker, and will protect your runesmith, while still contributing to the game by shooting-

The cannon + gt in combination can take down most monsters- or whittle down and destroy monstrous cavalry/infantry- or large units of infantry-

The hammerers take on the heavy hitters
While the warriors support them-

I've left out the gyrocopter- it is a little overcosted/not quite worth what you pay in points-
And 10 ironbreakers aren't good for much- they work in larger games at size 30+ though-

N1AK
22-08-2011, 13:17
I've been playing quite a bit of 1600pt warhammer recently in preperation for the MK Massacre tournament.

Personally I have found that a Runesmith with 1x RoSpellbreaking provides enough magic defence. The MRoBalance is very good, but you need the ability to stop one key spell and I think both is too many points on magic defence at this level. I normally give him a shield & RoFire which gives him a cheap combat ward save and the ability to stop regen if he does get into combat.

I'd always take a BSB. Our units tend to be expensive and losing them because of panic/break tests can easily cost us a game.

I don't normally bother with Quarrellers anymore. I find I get more effective shooting from warmachines, and then spend everything left on combat blocks and characters to go in them.

Mrandrenv
22-08-2011, 20:44
Right! I taken all your advices into care and started making a list, its only about 1000ish pts so far, since I havent decieded what to pick next. (Aiming on 1500pts) Here goes;

Runesmith

Shield
Rune of Spellbreaking (Dispel scroll)
Master Rune of Balance (Remove powerdice from oppenent and gain 1
dispeldice)

Thane

Battle Standard Bearer (Re-roll leadership tests within 12")
Shield +2pts
Master Rune of Gromril 25pts (1+ armor save)
Rune of Resistance 25pts (re-roll armor save)

Dwarf Warriors x25

Shield
Veteran
Standard Bearer
Musician

Hammerers x25

Veteran
Standard Bearer
Musician

Grudge Thrower 8opts

Engineer
Rune of Accuracy (Re-roll scatter dice)
Rune of Penetration (+1 Str)

This means I got 500 points left. One thing for sure is that I'll get another warmachine (probably a second grudge thrower, but with different runes, since I can't have same runecombination twice)

Other then that, what should I focus on? One more smaller block of Longbeards or something similar? Or a big block of Thunderers/Quarrellers? What's the pro's and con's betweens thunderers and quarrellers btw?

russellmoo
22-08-2011, 20:59
Thunderers- can be fielded in small units 10-14- they shoot very well and can whittle down certain units, or even gun down chariots- however, they are mostly useful for shooting only-

Quarellers- a large unit equipped with great weapons can shoot and whittle down the enemy, while still being able to dish it out in close combat- pretty much they can be used just like warriors with great weapons, but have the added versatility of being able to shoot

Personally, I actually take a unit of Thunderers most of the time- but this is just because I like the look of them and the added firepower- but competitively they are not the best choice, they are too many points for what they do- especially since an Organ gun can do what 10 thunderers can do, but better-

stangthing06
23-08-2011, 00:57
With 500 pts left, I would bump the Grudge Thrower up to Str 5 (by adding a 2nd Rune of Penetration, although that makes it cost 170 but is totally worth it for the extra strength). I would probably bump up the warriors and hammerers to 30 guys each, and take one unit of 30 GW Warriors with full command for 325 and still have some points left over or possibly even make the GW warriors into Rangers to get the scout drop (30 Rangers = 355). I have found even regular warriors with great weapons can really put a hurting on enemy units.

calnen
23-08-2011, 09:28
With 500 pts left, I would bump the Grudge Thrower up to Str 5 (by adding a 2nd Rune of Penetration, although that makes it cost 170 but is totally worth it for the extra strength). I would probably bump up the warriors and hammerers to 30 guys each, and take one unit of 30 GW Warriors with full command for 325 and still have some points left over or possibly even make the GW warriors into Rangers to get the scout drop (30 Rangers = 355). I have found even regular warriors with great weapons can really put a hurting on enemy units.

Exactly this.

Haravikk
23-08-2011, 11:36
Gyrocopters are always fun! But be aware than it's a little over-costed (in terms of points). Its the only thing in the game that still has to roll a 4+ to hit something under its template, and if you want to fire its steam gun, it can only move 10 inches.
On the other hand, it's by far the best way for Dwarfs to run down enemy units, which is crucial in games for Victory Points; there's nothing worse than beating enemy cavalry only for it to get a mile away from you and then avoid you for the rest of the game to deny you all of its points!

I likewise don't it all the time, but if you forget about using it for damage then it's an ideal supporting unit for combats as it can flank and rear charges more easily than anything else in the army, and is your best bet for pursuing broken enemies due to Swiftstride.


As for army recommendations; I think at 1,500 points a single Runesmith with Master Rune of Balance is plenty, Rune of Spellbreaking is handy just in case. I tend to stick mine in a ranged unit like Thunderers, or Quarrellers if you need to save the points.

With regards to Quarrellers; as a properly ranged unit I personally find them terrible, their main advantages are the ability to take Great Weapons, however to capitalise on this they need to move, which prevents them from shooting. However, their shooting isn't that good at long range; but if you move them quickly you can get better short-range shooting in later turns, or charge them in when your main combat units have been charged. You can also make them Rangers, which lets them Scout, getting them an advanced position from the start, with buildings being ideal due to the fact that combats into buildings aren't persistent, so you can still shoot every turn that they hold their ground.

So ehm… yeah, if you have the models then I'm personally inclined to take a bigger unit of Quarrellers (usually around 20+), since you can use them with other combat units quite happily, and you don't need much long-range firepower if you have a Grudge Thrower and/or Cannon (with or without runes for both).

Mrandrenv
23-08-2011, 16:02
Great! Think I got a better image on how I should build my army now =)

Next problem.. I can't get my hands on either Hammerers or Grudge Throwers until they are released in Finecast since my GW doesn't sell metal-figures anymore... =/

And it's gonna cost me a fortune to build a block of 30 Hammerers since 5 Hammmerers costs 30 dollars here (Swe). Hope they lower the price when they come in Finecast..

Mrandrenv
27-08-2011, 10:42
What would you think of 30 Longbeards instead of 30 Hammerers? They are a little more expensive and miss Stubborn, but they got a magic banner. It would still be doable? Reason is they havent come in finecast yet, and I'll never when they come ;P

Tuttivillus
27-08-2011, 13:00
Thane 65pts

Battle Standard Bearer 25pts (Re-roll leadership tests within 12")
Shield +2pts
Master Rune of Gromril 25pts (1+ armor save)
Rune of Resistance 25pts (re-roll armor save)

Total: 142pts
Just a bit of comment, if i may.

1.BSB cannot take shield
2.What you need shield anyway if you have M.R.of gromril? You have 1+ASv. allready.
3.Hammerers won't be cheaper in finecast. Probbably they will be more Expensive :(
4.I would go with Longbeards with shields, and a unit of GW Warriors. But its only me.
5.Get a cannon, rune of forging ang fire. Best choice IMHO.
6.if u really have somethig left go for miners with explosives. Good for enemy warmachines. If he doesnt have any put them on monsters way :D
7.Good Luck!!!

Haravikk
29-08-2011, 10:39
Next problem.. I can't get my hands on either Hammerers or Grudge Throwers until they are released in Finecast since my GW doesn't sell metal-figures anymore... =/
You can order them to be delivered in-store I think? Still, they're not cheap!

Personally I got my Grudge Throwers from eBay as they're nice models, but desperately in need of a plastic kit as they're a pain to build, easily broken, and not cheap!

For Hammerers; they're a brilliant unit for the points and well worth taking in any army. Model wise there are some options; you can buy regular warriors and just equip them with the hammer arms, though this won't look desperately good (too much like regular hand weapon and shield Dwarfs).
Alternatively, you could take those hammers and try to convert them onto the great weapon arms; it's a bit fiddly to get them on straight, and quite time consuming, but it will look the part when combined with a suitable colour-scheme, the grander and more unified the better to distinguish them from regular Dwarfs. If you go the conversion route, I recommend trying out the look by making a few converted great hammer arms and using fixing putty (for sticking up posters etc.) to pop the arms in place on any unfinished warrior bodies you have, just to try out the look to see if you like it.

Another good way to distinguish special units is to try to save as many of the cloaked bodies as you can, but there are only four per box I think so it can take a while, but if you're going to be buying enough numbers of regular warriors then you should have plenty if that's what you want to do. Otherwise, it's no too hard to make decent green stuff cloaks, though it takes a little practise to get them just right.

The metal hammerers do look good, if extremely mono-pose, but the £65 for 20 models is not cheap, and you typically need bigger units than that these days to soak up the masses of damage flying about. I'm very hopeful that there'll be plastic kits for a lot of the special choices when Dwarfs get updated, but that's some time next year.

Mrandrenv
29-08-2011, 15:56
You can order them to be delivered in-store I think? Still, they're not cheap!

Personally I got my Grudge Throwers from eBay as they're nice models, but desperately in need of a plastic kit as they're a pain to build, easily broken, and not cheap!

For Hammerers; they're a brilliant unit for the points and well worth taking in any army. Model wise there are some options; you can buy regular warriors and just equip them with the hammer arms, though this won't look desperately good (too much like regular hand weapon and shield Dwarfs).
Alternatively, you could take those hammers and try to convert them onto the great weapon arms; it's a bit fiddly to get them on straight, and quite time consuming, but it will look the part when combined with a suitable colour-scheme, the grander and more unified the better to distinguish them from regular Dwarfs. If you go the conversion route, I recommend trying out the look by making a few converted great hammer arms and using fixing putty (for sticking up posters etc.) to pop the arms in place on any unfinished warrior bodies you have, just to try out the look to see if you like it.

Another good way to distinguish special units is to try to save as many of the cloaked bodies as you can, but there are only four per box I think so it can take a while, but if you're going to be buying enough numbers of regular warriors then you should have plenty if that's what you want to do. Otherwise, it's no too hard to make decent green stuff cloaks, though it takes a little practise to get them just right.

The metal hammerers do look good, if extremely mono-pose, but the £65 for 20 models is not cheap, and you typically need bigger units than that these days to soak up the masses of damage flying about. I'm very hopeful that there'll be plastic kits for a lot of the special choices when Dwarfs get updated, but that's some time next year.

Hmm, you're right. I was going the Longbeards with GW route until Hammerers are available in finecast, but I don't know how long that will be.. BUT I might aswell make the Longbeards with GW as Hammerers. I don't think my buddies will have anything against it, since we only play for fun and imho I got a valid reason for not buying real Hammerers yet ;P My warriors got more cloth and mixed colors of green/blue/brown, and I'm gonna make the Hammerers more silver/gold/bronze, and some red/brown cloth on the arms only so they are easy to seperate from regular warriors.

Jo-Jo
29-08-2011, 17:49
Just a quick reminder: Don't post lists which show how much everything is worth points wise (i.e. shield +1pt). Thats how you get sued by Games Workshop.

Mrandrenv
29-08-2011, 18:30
Just a quick reminder: Don't post lists which show how much everything is worth points wise (i.e. shield +1pt). Thats how you get sued by Games Workshop.

If that's true, then it's just stupid. Why is that? I'm just talking about their game.

The bearded one
29-08-2011, 19:22
GW isn't always logical.

Generally we just avoid posting straight pointcosts that allow people to see what things and upgrades cost, though total point values of things are fine (eg. thane, rune of stone, rune of cleaving, rune of fury, rune of snorri spangelhelm, shield: 142 points)

warplock
29-08-2011, 19:51
GW isn't always logical.

Generally we just avoid posting straight pointcosts that allow people to see what things and upgrades cost, though total point values of things are fine (eg. thane, rune of stone, rune of cleaving, rune of fury, rune of snorri spangelhelm, shield: 142 points)

Sometimes people post points costs in 'skaven slaves' or 'old gnoblars' though. Surely since everyone knows how much those models cost, it makes absolutely no difference. Do they do it for amusement or do people actually think it makes a difference?

The bearded one
29-08-2011, 21:51
Pretty much everyone here knows the pointcost of things. Who after all come into these threads to help write lists, if they didn't know the pointvalues. GW just doesn't want all the values and costs shouted across the internet rooftops. Everyone is aware of costs, but at least the profiles aren't basically copy-pasted in the internet.

Jo-Jo
30-08-2011, 16:31
Pretty much everyone here knows the pointcost of things. Who after all come into these threads to help write lists, if they didn't know the pointvalues. GW just doesn't want all the values and costs shouted across the internet rooftops. Everyone is aware of costs, but at least the profiles aren't basically copy-pasted in the internet.

Ah but you get to legal technicalities. Other boards have been closed due to exact points values been used.

You can say "This unit costs x pts altogether" but you can't say "this upgrade costs x pts". Its how the army builder gets around copywrite. Sure GW don't care, but if they wanted to say "we want Warseer closed because they are negative to us", its one of the things they could bring up.

Anyway, back to dwarves...

Haravikk
30-08-2011, 18:47
Just want to note that if you go with a good size unit of Quarrellers without upgrading to Rangers, then always remember to deploy them centrally! I usually field mine as Rangers but decided not to in a recent game, and paid the price for it when I stupidly put them on a flank instead of in the middle.

In the middle they can get in to support more easily, and can pick and choose most targets to shoot at. You want them in combat where possible, but only as support for another unit, or against something fairly weak, but shooting can be good if you're not able to find a good combat for them, but it's usually best used for Stand and Shoot if you don't manage a charge, or if you break out of a combat and have nowhere you can really go.

But ehm… yeah, they're a terrible flank unit as they die very quickly when not on your own terms. Stand and Shoot can be a good deterrent, but then instead of being whittled down in combat you end up with a unit that spends the whole game trying to get to where the action was in turns 1 and 2 :)

As Rangers you can just slap them somewhere reasonable defensible and shoot away to your hearts content; nowhere too far advanced as you want your other troops to catch up to them before they're overwhelmed. A character with a Rune of Brotherhood can be a fun addition to Rangers if you need some extra damage or to draw an enemy character into a challenge.