PDA

View Full Version : according to 5th ed. codex, GK gene-seed is from the Emperor?



MontytheMighty
22-08-2011, 05:43
"Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul."
so GK gene-seed is from the Emperor, right?
or does someone else have a different (and also reasonable) interpretation?

Hellebore
22-08-2011, 05:53
That's been the legend since day dot pretty much. It was only with far more recent info that the idea that the loyalists from traitor legions were the primogenitors.

Before BL or this codex my idea was that they were actually a secret 2nd founding of the Custodes.

Hellebore

MontytheMighty
22-08-2011, 06:00
Well now it's stated by the codex authour that "the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul".

Is there still any ambiguity?

Wyrmwood
22-08-2011, 06:02
I think that Ward has all but confirmed it.

Hellebore
22-08-2011, 06:05
This is a habit GW has - write something that sounds like it could be a legend, or vaguely hint at something, then a few years later through adaptive distillation come out and say that first mystery conspiracy idea was the truth all along.

This is why I don't put much stock in the defence many use of retcons that sound like legends, they're all but confirmed to be true. It's a pseudomystery.

Hellebore

Wyrmwood
22-08-2011, 06:08
It's a shame, because through such a practice the more interesting IP becomes stunted.

MontytheMighty
22-08-2011, 06:09
I think a line should be drawn between in-universe points of view and facts that the authour directly tells the reader

Wyrmwood
22-08-2011, 06:11
After giving the quote a second look, I realise that all of the Astartes geneseed carries/is formed of the Emperor's own blood/flesh. But it's the preface that changes the possibility of the latter quote into a fact.

Iuris
22-08-2011, 08:11
(/drowningsorrow mode ON) HIC... Bartender... HIC... gimme 'nother 'un, anna make it a double...

Geneseed coming from the Emperor, who was not actually genetically engineered... How low GW has fallen...

So what exactly WAS the Emperor doing for all those years in the labs? Donating blood samples? Stupid GW...

Born Again
22-08-2011, 08:39
(/drowningsorrow mode ON) HIC... Bartender... HIC... gimme 'nother 'un, anna make it a double...

Geneseed coming from the Emperor, who was not actually genetically engineered... How low GW has fallen...

So what exactly WAS the Emperor doing for all those years in the labs? Donating blood samples? Stupid GW...

The quote doesn't say that they literally took out gene seed from the Emperor and stuck it in the Grey Knights. Their gene seed was crafted from scratch (as opposed to being made from another existing chapter, as is the case with later foundings), using the Emperor's genetic material (which is not the same thing as gene seed!) as a blueprint or starting point. The Emperor used a similar process to create the Primarchs in the first place.

Sephiroth
22-08-2011, 08:57
The quote doesn't say that they literally took out gene seed from the Emperor and stuck it in the Grey Knights. Their gene seed was crafted from scratch (as opposed to being made from another existing chapter, as is the case with later foundings), using the Emperor's genetic material (which is not the same thing as gene seed!) as a blueprint or starting point. The Emperor used a similar process to create the Primarchs in the first place.

Yeah but the implication is the Emperor used his own flesh, and possibly his warp/soul/magics in the creation of the Primarchs, who would have the unique organs.

After they got stolen, the Emperor used left over material and implanted it in the first Space Marines he led from Terra. After the Primarchs were rediscovered, samples taken from them allowed the unique organs to be cloned more easily.

Taking samples from the Emperor for a new batch, still doesn't give them a gene-seed model to work from.

Harwammer
22-08-2011, 10:37
No, so they must have (reverse?) engineered a geneseed model from those samples taken from the Emperor?

Also is it far fetched to assume The Emperor subjected himself to all sorts of genetic therapies and surgical enhancements in his massively long life? It could be these therapies and enhancements the GK geneseed was based off?

Lord-Caerolion
22-08-2011, 11:39
Yeah but the implication is the Emperor used his own flesh, and possibly his warp/soul/magics in the creation of the Primarchs, who would have the unique organs.

After they got stolen, the Emperor used left over material and implanted it in the first Space Marines he led from Terra. After the Primarchs were rediscovered, samples taken from them allowed the unique organs to be cloned more easily.

Taking samples from the Emperor for a new batch, still doesn't give them a gene-seed model to work from.

That's what happened though. The Primarchs didn't have the organs implanted in the Astartes either, it was developed from their genetic material, or geneseed, as it's called. The Grey Knights just got organs developed directly from the genetic material of the Emperor, rather than from a Primarch. So sayeth A D-B.

TheScreamingGodKing
22-08-2011, 12:18
They are the work of ward, and you cant more awesome sauce than that, this means that they are much like the primarchs in composition, leading to the engraving og hearts

Lord Commissar Aquila
22-08-2011, 14:31
No, so they must have (reverse?) engineered a geneseed model from those samples taken from the Emperor?

Also is it far fetched to assume The Emperor subjected himself to all sorts of genetic therapies and surgical enhancements in his massively long life? It could be these therapies and enhancements the GK geneseed was based off?

Geneseed has been known to be independently developed(Mentor Legion's GS, for example), so it may mean that some genetic material of the Emperor was engineered into geneseed samples(with the help of Malcador?), and thus was the making of the GK geneseed.

Idaan
22-08-2011, 14:51
What's so special about the Emperor's DNA? He was just a regular dude born to pre-Hittite parents in Anatolia thousands of years ago. It's his soul that was special, and that doesn't have anything to do with his genome as far as we know.

And if he subjected himself to genetic treatment at some point, that still doesn't explain the hassle: the DNA still isn't his unique trait. It's like saying that some pornstar's breast implants are superior, because they're made from the same batch of silicone as Jenna Jameson's. (sorry for my choice of simile)

FlashGordon
22-08-2011, 15:44
Anyone actually listens to Mat ward?!
Anyway, do we actually know that gene-seed is not somehow warp powered?

Charax
22-08-2011, 16:46
lateral thinking is an entirely lost art

"Gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul" could mean a number of things:
- it's literally made from the emperor's flesh and soul. Although lord knows how bits of his soul got in there.
- It's literally formed from the basis of the Emperor's own genetic structure, and he worked on it personally (You've never heard the phrase "Put your heart & soul" into something?)
- It's something the Emperor worked on personally (Again "Put his heart and soul" into it)

My interpretation is that the geneseed is based on the Emperor's genetic structure, which isn't that big a whoop, and the soul stuff is hyperbole

Chem-Dog
22-08-2011, 18:14
I'd be inclined to believe that the GK's do indeed bear a portion of the Emperor's genetic template within them, if only to make it more likely that they can survive the Soul-Binding process. Unless that's been retconned.

MontytheMighty
22-08-2011, 18:56
It's his soul that was special
apparently the GK have the gift of the Emperor's flesh and soul because of their special gene-seed

I guess we could underplay it and interpret it as saying GK gene-seed contains the Emperor's genetic material (all gene-seed does, albeit indirectly through the primarchs)

but we'd be ignoring the point of the passage, which is to point out what sets the GK apart from "regular" SM

Terminatorphoenix
22-08-2011, 19:25
That's been the legend since day dot pretty much. It was only with far more recent info that the idea that the loyalists from traitor legions were the primogenitors.
Hellebore


I actually got the impression that Garro and his men were the primordial Deathwatch; born into an organisation without the specialisation that would come later and the realisation that something else was required ie Grey Knights.

Sevon
29-08-2011, 20:49
That'd be like the Emperor saying "I wish I never made the 20 original Primarchs"...

...and given it's the Emperor, he probably could...

khirsath
30-08-2011, 00:28
I figured the GK geneseed was amalgamation of it's original member's gene-seed. This was done in a manner to rid it of all impurities and make it stable without the presence of the primarh(s). Thus they are still partly the emperors flesh like all astartes are his grandchildren. It also gives them a special and unique geneseed without having to fracture their already devastated background further.

ashendant
30-08-2011, 00:40
The black crusade rulebook also states that the geneseed comes from the emperor

RunepriestRidcully
30-08-2011, 07:37
Ohh Grey knights background.. you were so good, so cool and interesting and full of mysteries..sigh. I personally don't use the new codex because the sheer advantage it seems to give you, plus the background that makes whinnie the poo seem machiavellian and complicated in comparisson. After what happened to the Grey knights, the Necrons don't stand a chance. I persoanlly would interpetate it as meaning he put his "body and soul" into it's creation like how artists are described as putting their heart and soul into a masterpeice, that's the best interpretation that maintains some mystery and complexity in the 4ok univers, whch is going to be difficult as he does more codexs.

MontytheMighty
31-08-2011, 00:31
The black crusade rulebook also states that the geneseed comes from the emperor
mind providing a quote?
would be interested how it's worded in there

Hannimar
31-08-2011, 01:18
Thou shall not quote Matt Ward codexes for fluff. He is not canon. He is like the Chaos Dwarfs for regular Dwarfs - never happened, crossed out from the records. I honestly believe Matt Ward was one of the two Primarchs that were erased from history :D.

If you're mature and want GK fluff, read the old IA. That's the only source of information. The Codex is written for 12 year olds who wanted Dragon Ball, and Matt Ward brought it to them. Draigo, scene with Mortarion, Titan's disappearance... no. It never happened.

MontytheMighty
31-08-2011, 01:34
Thou shall not quote Matt Ward codexes for fluff.
black crusade rulebook was written by Ward?

Xisor
31-08-2011, 01:47
Draigo, scene with Mortarion, Titan's disappearance... no. It never happened.

I guess the Emperor'll need to stay put on the Golden Throne a while longer then. The (seemingly) primed-candidate for being a Thorian-esque resurrection-vessel never happened. :rolleyes:

@ Monty: No, not by Matt Ward. IIRC Black Crusade's primarily Tom Watson, but with significant input from Andy Chambers. Remember him, anyone? (Deus Ex Mechanicus is still one of my favourite short stories.)

ashendant
31-08-2011, 02:20
mind providing a quote?
would be interested how it's worded in there

Since the book is written from the viewpoint of a heretic it could probably just fear but this is what is written


The Grey Knight are Space Marines said to have received their geneseed directly from the Emperor himself.

Also this nugget


Amongst the tides of the Immaterium, the Grey knight is a feared legend, terrifying those whom fear is otherwise unknown.