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View Full Version : OK...who's fed up with the Alpha Legion fluff



MontytheMighty
22-08-2011, 06:05
never liked this chapter, but I just read a short story in which
the scheming of a single Alpha Legionnaire wipes out an entire loyalist chapter
I mean, really?
people complain about how the Ultramarines are portrayed as invincible, but I seriously think the prize for being annoyingly untouchable should go to the Alpha Legion

BobtheInquisitor
22-08-2011, 06:08
I completely agree. Legion doesn't help, either.

Jack of Blades
22-08-2011, 06:08
What annoys me with the Alpha Legion is how ''they're really just misunderstood and trying to do the right thing! they're good bad guys! so cool''. They're not good guys masquerading as jerks, they're just as rotten as any other legion. It's a bugbear to read about people liking the Alpha Legion because they're different and doing it for a hidden motive and bla bla bla...

MontytheMighty
22-08-2011, 06:11
and they never lose
they just pretend to lose because doing so suits their grand plan

Wyrmwood
22-08-2011, 06:21
What those people fail to consider is that it's been ten thousand years, less so within Warp Space, but every single Alpha Legionnaire seen has been corrupted and/or mutated. What is more annoying is the bandwagon of 'Alpharius did it!', 'X is Alpha Legion' and so on.

stormblade
22-08-2011, 06:31
They lost in Dawn of War I.

And no, their fluff is no more annoying than any other SM chapters fluff.
To me, of course.

Sephiroth
22-08-2011, 06:54
never liked this chapter, but I just read a short story in which

Which is based on an event in the Chaos Codex. Seemed fair to me, its actually a pretty clever way to take a Space Marine Chapter out. I'd like to know how they (the Alpha Legion) got onto the recruiting ground, and an explanation for how the the Chapter's Librarium missed it, as they're suppose to screen new recruits for hints of psyhic power, and you'd think warp-spawned mental conditioning would show up...

But other then questions of "how", easily the cleverest way to kill a Chapter.

Wyrmwood
22-08-2011, 07:05
Agreed. Said story would probably have worked better as a full novel.

mob16151
22-08-2011, 07:34
I'm not annoyed by Alpha Legions fluff. For as long as I can remember there the go to guys for overly convoluted plans.

All the newer stuff just reinforces it.

Endobai
22-08-2011, 07:36
never liked this chapter, but I just read a short story in which
the scheming of a single Alpha Legionnaire wipes out an entire loyalist chapter
I mean, really?
people complain about how the Ultramarines are portrayed as invincible, but I seriously think the prize for being annoyingly untouchable should go to the Alpha Legion

And so legends are born...

First - it is not a chapter, but LEGION i.e. several times bigger and with much larger resources at their disposal.

Second - I've read the story in Hammer and Bolter, quite recently, so remember it well. All there was was a closing, ending gambit following years, decades of preparation.

I see it as a master player allowing himself to taste the fruits of victory he laboured very hard on.

Notice that Alpha Legion's forces had to be considerably larger even during the last stage of the operation and remember that other forces were also involved (no details not to spoil the story).


I am not an Alpha Legion fanboy and the short story is not perfect, but it is far from 'one legionary defeating a chapter'.





Overall the Legion is simply very different from all others and it is not too easy to grasp its peculiar nature.
There are better attempts such as in 'the Legion' and worse - I mean the story about the Raven Guard in 'the Age of Darkness' where this particular part was pretty lame, though one of my favourite remains a story in Inferno I've read many years ago.

Alpha is not invincible, neither is their primarch but for now we only see first attempts in dealing with the Legion. After all its existing fluff is still rather young so it tends to touch episodes and much depends on writer's skills.

I am sure that in 10 millenia of the Long War the Legion splintered in more than a dozen possible ways, parts of it were corrupted leaving sanity behind (plotting plots in order to plot for the sake of plotting), yet it might be the only legion with its primarch still alive and not in the Eye which should be also considered in discussing its background.

Parts of the Legion might still fight the good war their primarch initiated. If that is really what is happening is just another story and something we could find entertaining to discuss - and hell it should!

Wyrmwood
22-08-2011, 08:43
I'm not annoyed by Alpha Legions fluff. For as long as I can remember there the go to guys for overly convoluted plans.

All the newer stuff just reinforces it.
You gotta wonder why they aren't dedicated to Tzeentch instead of/as well as the Thousand Sons.

KingDeath
22-08-2011, 09:33
You gotta wonder why they aren't dedicated to Tzeentch instead of/as well as the Thousand Sons.

Some warbands might be openly dedicated to the dark gods ( including Tzeentch ), others might think that they still work for themselfs and merely use Chaos as a tool.

Wyrmwood
22-08-2011, 09:35
Some warbands might be openly dedicated to the dark gods ( including Tzeentch ), others might think that they still work for themselfs and merely use Chaos as a tool.
It's perfectly feasible, but I meant it's a wonder why Tzeentch wasn't explicitly in their background from Index Astartes onward.

mob16151
22-08-2011, 10:05
It's perfectly feasible, but I meant it's a wonder why Tzeentch wasn't explicitly in their background from Index Astartes onward.

Tzeentch is also the lord of sorcery,and knowledge(I think) thus giving the Thousand sons a small edge in the get picked by a patron race lol.

Captain Semper
22-08-2011, 10:09
Sorry guys, what short story is that? Where can i find it? Is it in Age of Darkness (haven't read all of it yet)? I really would like to read this now :)

Wyrmwood
22-08-2011, 10:17
Tzeentch is also the lord of sorcery,and knowledge(I think) thus giving the Thousand sons a small edge in the get picked by a patron race lol.
The Alpha Legion prize knowledge above all else, it's the cornerstone of their philosophy.

Korraz
22-08-2011, 10:53
Spotlighted chapters and legions are all equally good or bad (depending on your taste) when it comes to this.
That's just how the Marine fluff rolls. They are the Uberprotagonists.

Endobai
22-08-2011, 12:40
Sorry guys, what short story is that? Where can i find it? Is it in Age of Darkness (haven't read all of it yet)? I really would like to read this now :)

The short story is 'The Long Games at Carcharias' by Rob Sanders available in Hammer and Bolter issue 3 which might be still possible to download from the Black Library website.
The other stories mentioned in my post are from the Age of Darkness and a magazine titled Inferno which was in circulation years ago ( personal - my first encounter with this Legion, I was not playing Wh40k yet).

The forthcoming title in the HH series - 'Deliverance Lost' will also feature something about this Legion. Hopefully better written than in the short story in 'the Age of Darkness'.

That should answer your question. I hope. :)

Captain Semper
22-08-2011, 13:10
@ Endobai:

Thanks for that, I'll get the Hammer and Bolter issue 3 just to get up to speed. As for the rest, I'm covered - got all Inferno! issues as well as the Age of Darkness anthology.

I'm aware that "Deliverance Lost" will have strong references to Alpha Legion, I look forward reading that too! I hope they keep everything in perspective.

Thx again!

shadowhawk2008
22-08-2011, 13:58
never liked this chapter, but I just read a short story in which
the scheming of a single Alpha Legionnaire wipes out an entire loyalist chapter
I mean, really?
people complain about how the Ultramarines are portrayed as invincible, but I seriously think the prize for being annoyingly untouchable should go to the Alpha Legion

You are assuming of course that just because only one Alpha Legionnaire was shown in the story, then there was only one of them involved.

There were undoubtedly others involved in the misdirections for the Crimson Consuls involved in the Damocles Gulf and others who set up the brainwashing of the hivers.

MontytheMighty
22-08-2011, 14:12
by all means, make the Alpha Legion look cool if you're writing about them, but why does it always have to be at the expense of loyalist IQ
it gets annoying when they dupe everyone and no one can see through their "subtle plans"


I'd like to know how they (the Alpha Legion) got onto the recruiting ground, and an explanation for how the the Chapter's Librarium missed it, as they're suppose to screen new recruits for hints of psyhic power, and you'd think warp-spawned mental conditioning would show up...
oh y'know, the Alpha Legion are just good like that


But other then questions of "how", easily the cleverest way to kill a Chapter.
by "cleverest way", I'm sure you mean "the most ridiculously implausible way, the details of which the authour left out because he knew he'd never be able to provide a convincing explanation"

Wyrmwood
22-08-2011, 14:31
by all means, make the Alpha Legion look cool if you're writing about them, but why does it always have to be at the expense of loyalist IQ
it gets annoying when they dupe everyone and no one can see through their "subtle plans"


oh y'know, the Alpha Legion are just good like that


by "cleverest way", I'm sure you mean "the most ridiculously implausible way, the details of which the authour left out because he knew he'd never be able to provide a convincing explanation"
The details would stretch the short story out to at least a novella sized piece, but really only a full novel or something could do it justice.

Idaan
22-08-2011, 15:32
So basically people complain because Alpha Legion are Space Marines?

Killgore
22-08-2011, 15:36
The details would stretch the short story out to at least a novella sized piece, but really only a full novel or something could do it justice.

Itís a very good short story :)

I've got fed up of BL stories where the goodies slay Chaos Marines by the hundred without breaking a sweat (McNeill's 'The Chapters Due' was terrible for this), itís good that the baddies win a spectacular victory of such magnitude through careful planning and playing the long game.

The Alpha Legions party trick is subtle complex plans, not head on assault like other Legions/ Chapters, of course they are going to be very good at doing it!

shadowhawk2008
22-08-2011, 15:40
by all means, make the Alpha Legion look cool if you're writing about them, but why does it always have to be at the expense of loyalist IQ
it gets annoying when they dupe everyone and no one can see through their "subtle plans"

oh y'know, the Alpha Legion are just good like that

by "cleverest way", I'm sure you mean "the most ridiculously implausible way, the details of which the authour left out because he knew he'd never be able to provide a convincing explanation"

The Alpha Legion is the legion for which subtlety and misdirection is a way of life. They can frak up anyone and everyone. And it is not always against loyalists, they did this to the World Eaters as well.

Secondly, the Alpha Legion spent years preparing for that betrayal. The most subtle kind of conditioning using hypno-suggestion. And who said the CC Librarians were really awesome Librarians anyway? A Blood Ravens Librarian didn't know a Tyranid hive-splinter was attacking a subsector until it was too late and all the warning signs were already there.

Also, Rob Sanders didn't cook this up out of nowhere. I believe this has been in the background already for quite a while. The short story is not meant to be about HOW the betrayal happens but WHEN it happens.

FlashGordon
22-08-2011, 15:41
It’s a very good short story :)

I've got fed up of BL stories where the goodies slay Chaos Marines by the hundred without breaking a sweat (McNeill's 'The Chapters Due' was terrible for this), it’s good that the baddies win a spectacular victory of such magnitude through careful planning and playing the long game.

The Alpha Legions party trick is subtle complex plans, not head on assault like other Legions/ Chapters, of course they are going to be very good at doing it!

The alpha legion is like a cartoon with Droopy(you know, the dog) who manages to escape and pop up everywhere. I never liked droopy because it was too illogical. So are the Alpha Legion.
It just feels lazy imo.
(and yeah i know its too much to ask of a short)

Excessus
22-08-2011, 18:10
bohoo, there is ONE story where AL has an operation for almost THREE CENTURIES and wipes out a chapter...

I bet there are faster ways to wipe out a chapter...

mob16151
22-08-2011, 19:14
The Alpha Legion prize knowledge above all else, it's the cornerstone of their philosophy.

No the Alpha Legion prizes Secrecy, and Misdirection, above all else.


The whole knowledge seeking thing has always been the 1000 sons.

malika
22-08-2011, 19:22
I like the idea that the Alpha Legion come up with these strange and sometimes over the top plans to do stuff. For example the Tesstra Prime campaign. The Alpha Legion could have done it the easy way and be done with it, but they came up with this big concocted plan.

I can imagine them taking this to yet another extreme after the Heresy. Really making up their own campaigns/doctrines/objectives as they go, but not just to beat the enemy, but to prove to themselves and each other that they can pull off these things.

MontytheMighty
22-08-2011, 19:27
just venting my annoyance
if you're an AL fan then it's great for you
I just don't want to hear anymore whining about how unstoppable the Ultramarines are when the Alpha Legion has even thicker plot armour


The details would stretch the short story out to at least a novella sized piece, but really only a full novel or something could do it justice.
perhaps but I doubt it

the thing about ridiculously byzantine plans is that the more variables involved, the less likely everything will transpire as anticipated, and the more suspension of disbelief required

KingDeath
22-08-2011, 20:38
The plan was pretty simple. Corrupt the recruits and once everything is ready scatter the target as best as possible. Then strike fast and hard.
That noone noticed the hypno indoctrination part isn't too far fetched, after all even powerful Librarians are not necessarily able to read your mind like a book ( especialy not if the corruption is settled deep within your subconsciousness ).

Sephiroth
22-08-2011, 20:46
by "cleverest way", I'm sure you mean "the most ridiculously implausible way, the details of which the authour left out because he knew he'd never be able to provide a convincing explanation"

All Space Marines are susceptible to hypnotic suggestion and indoctrination. It is a requirement for them to become Space Marines. The Alpha Legion, as Astartes themselves, know this and have targeted it. That's pretty clever. Certainly better than just showing up to fight them.

Space Marines wouldn't really detect that sort of thing, it requires Inquisitors... something Astartes aren't eager to share their details with.

Freak Ona Leash
22-08-2011, 21:12
just venting my annoyance
if you're an AL fan then it's great for you
I just don't want to hear anymore whining about how unstoppable the Ultramarines are when the Alpha Legion has even thicker plot armour


perhaps but I doubt it

the thing about ridiculously byzantine plans is that the more variables involved, the less likely everything will transpire as anticipated, and the more suspension of disbelief required

I'm not certain where this vehement dislike for the Alpha Legion comes from. They have...what, a SINGLE short story where they destroy a chapter. As opposed to the other Loyalist and Traitor legions that do ridiculous things on a daily basis.

You just sound like a whiner.

mob16151
22-08-2011, 21:14
I'm not certain where this vehement dislike for the Alpha Legion comes from. They have...what, a SINGLE short story where they destroy a chapter. As opposed to the other Loyalist and Traitor legions that do ridiculous things on a daily basis.

You just sound like a whiner.


There's also the short story in Age of Darkness where they mess with the World Eaters.

Freak Ona Leash
22-08-2011, 21:16
There's also the short story in Age of Darkness where they mess with the World Eaters.

He doesn't seem to be complaining about that one.

Eetion
22-08-2011, 21:32
just venting my annoyance
if you're an AL fan then it's great for you
I just don't want to hear anymore whining about how unstoppable the Ultramarines are when the Alpha Legion has even thicker plot armour.
.
Sorry but that is simply ridiculous. You have taken one example and spun it into plot armour a metre thick.
They were beaten in the dawn of war games and i think they were nothing special in hunt for voldorius (although iv not read that so I'm open minded about that).

They simply have a different way of operating. The thing is the AL stack the deck with as many advantages as they can before attacking. You seem annoyed that they just don't get portrayed is mindless lackeys lacking focus rather than an intelligent enemy. And if they take down a chapter with guile instead of brute force then excellent. It portrays them so much the better. Remember that taking down a chapter need not require vast resources if your own are significantly enhanced.

Also keep it in mind that the alphas also endorsed adaptability never relying on a single plan or event and always had back ups in place according to the IA.
Whereas Ultra plot armour is rock solid with avatar whacking masters and virtual untouchable troops. To compare the two as anything near the same is pure rubbish.

Garven Dreis
22-08-2011, 22:00
I don't see the point of this argument. Every faction/chapter has stories where they kick ass and and chew bubblegum. At least the Alpha Legion didn't take on the Ecclesiarchy and then get them to back down, or forge an alliance with Necrons..

Excessus
22-08-2011, 22:11
The Alpha Legion has had their fair share of defeats. You don't get declared wiped out by the Inquisition without some bloodshed...and definitely not THREE TIMES!

Inquisitor Engel
22-08-2011, 22:19
I think a lot of people are fed up with Alpha Legion because the GW-Internet took the Alpha Legion things from 'Legion' and turned it into a Meme. How many threads have posts with "It was Alpharius!" or "The Alpha Legion did it!"

Yeah.

Tay051173096
22-08-2011, 22:28
I like the AL for their theme of cunning and misdirection... Tatics and making the most of any advantages appeals to me, that and the cult rules for them made playing against the a blast.

Fluff wise I think destroying on chapter with 300 years work is cool, compared to some of the mad things that happens in 40K its quitedull but oh well...

I am hoping for more of these short stories in the next chaos codex.

Scalebug
22-08-2011, 22:42
I think a lot of people are fed up with Alpha Legion because the GW-Internet took the Alpha Legion things from 'Legion' and turned it into a Meme. How many threads have posts with "It was Alpharius!" or "The Alpha Legion did it!"

Yeah.

This.

I think you can really count canon Alpha Legion fluff-pieces on one hand, and then you have interwebs-spin exaggerating what they do ad nauseum. Just like any other thing in the 40k canon, really...

It's a short story with a faction as the protagonists. There is two ways you can write it; either they do their thing and win, or they lose dramatically (as heroes or villains). That is really the two ways to do it.

I can understand things grating on readers nerves, like the Avatar having a skewed win/being pwned ratio when you count its appearances, hammy one-liners like every chapter lamenting they are not Ultramarines, or odd quantum leaps in achievements above other characters, like Draigo, but the Alpha Legion here doing what they do, in one story, is just whining.

Mannimarco
22-08-2011, 22:49
Hell no! The Alpha Legion are great, Chaos needs more depth and a hell of a lot less "hurr hurr I R SPIKY AND EVIL HURR HURR".

Alpha Legion fluff doesn bother me, what bothers me is all the "The Alpha Legion did it" and "they're secretly good guys!".

I would like to categorically deny the Alpha Legion did not do it, everybody knows it was the Ctan that did it and no they are not good guys: beating the Ultras, spreading their operatives around to destabilize regions so either thet or other Chaos forces can move around, a horribly over thought plan to wipe out a loyalist chapter from within? Lets brush away everything we know about the AL because of what Legion said.

massey
23-08-2011, 00:32
Yeah, the Alpha Legion being good guys is stupid. They're bad guys through and through. My only issue with the incredibly convoluted plots is that you don't have to be a space marine to have that. You have this giant genetically engineered warrior with incredible armor and weapons, and he's sitting there waiting for 300 years for his plan to come to fruition. Why even bother with all the enhancements? You don't have to be a space marine to do that stuff.

TheLaughingGod
23-08-2011, 06:27
In case it hasn't already been said, the old fluff has Alpha Legion as Tzeench worshipers. I think it makes sense.

Gu Long: Ancient Dragon
23-08-2011, 08:51
Yeah, the Alpha Legion being good guys is stupid. They're bad guys through and through. My only issue with the incredibly convoluted plots is that you don't have to be a space marine to have that. You have this giant genetically engineered warrior with incredible armor and weapons, and he's sitting there waiting for 300 years for his plan to come to fruition. Why even bother with all the enhancements? You don't have to be a space marine to do that stuff.

Kinda do if you wanna survive the 300 years of planning :p

Captain Semper
23-08-2011, 09:39
Hell no! The Alpha Legion are great, Chaos needs more depth and a hell of a lot less "hurr hurr I R SPIKY AND EVIL HURR HURR".

Actually they identify less and less the above description through all the HH novels (not to mention the Night Lord novels by ADB). In fact they (Chaos Legions) are increasingly portrayed as basically good guys with just a different perception of how the Imperium should be run. Certainly not spiky, evil, one dimentional hurr hurr. Haven't read "Legion" mind you...


Lets brush away everything we know about the AL because of what Legion said.

As I said I've not read "Legion" yet but having to live with BL books being official lore can be a bitch...

Erazmus_M_Wattle
23-08-2011, 10:24
In case it hasn't already been said, the old fluff has Alpha Legion as Tzeench worshipers. I think it makes sense.

It makes sense to me. I don't know about worshipping Tzeentch though. For knowledge and magic the Thousand Sons are the go to guys. The thing is that's not all Tzeentch is about.

Tzeentch is obsessed with plans and plots within plans and plots. For no other reason than just to plot and plan. Even if the AL don't worship him they share the same modus operandi and so give power to him. So willing or not they are by now his pawns.

Tay051173096
23-08-2011, 10:54
In case it hasn't already been said, the old fluff has Alpha Legion as Tzeench worshipers. I think it makes sense.

It why they have fish scales on thier armour in the older stuff, they have kept it actually. :)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440209a&aId=1100022

MontytheMighty
23-08-2011, 15:19
Kinda do if you wanna survive the 300 years of planning :p
nope not in 40k
old inquisitors and members of their entourage are frequently several hundred years old (rejuvenat treatments, bionics, surgeries, etc.)


I'm not certain where this vehement dislike for the Alpha Legion comes from. They have...what, a SINGLE short story where they destroy a chapter. As opposed to the other Loyalist and Traitor legions that do ridiculous things on a daily basis. You just sound like a whiner.
pls stop whining about my whining
thank you

FlashGordon
23-08-2011, 15:31
As long as BL does not continue with this Age of Darkness(the book) madness i will be happy(AL popping up in random place like a lazy plot device).

Yodhrin
23-08-2011, 16:13
First, I don't see how people are getting from the events in Legion, to "Alpha Legion are totes the goodies!".

Conspiring with a cabal of mysterious aliens to bring about the utter extinction of your own species, regardless of your supposed motivation for doing so, is hardly the act of the traditional "good guy". At best, it's utterly ruthless pragmatism.

Further, I don't get why people are complaining about the route being taken with the Horus Heresy novels. First, the Heresy has always been cast in the style of an Epic Greek Tragedy, that this is now being made explicit by virtue of more extensive exploration through the novel series was inevitable. Second, one of the central themes of the Heresy is that intentions mean very little, and that even the most noble can be manipulated to act in a manner that is objectively opposite to those intentions. It's been 10,000 years since the events of Legion, and as a result of their MO, it's impossible to tell if the Alpha Legion are still conforming to their intentions back then.

Sandlemad
23-08-2011, 17:27
If you look at a lot of the Alpha Legion background in 'modern' 40K, it's clear that a lot of the Legion have fallen for their own hype. Are they simply pretending to be chaotic but secretly working for their own vision of the imperium? It's kind of like the inquisition, half of the Legion probably have different ideas about how to carry out their goals, if they still hold the goals of Alpharius. Look at the Night Lords and how many different agendas/motives there are there. When 'Secrets and Lies' is your watchword, this applies doubly.

Basically, if you're becoming a daemon prince to carry out what you think are ultimately anti-chaos goals (eg. Voldorius), you might want to reevaluate who exactly is getting duped...

Polaria
23-08-2011, 17:49
and they never lose
they just pretend to lose because doing so suits their grand plan

Naah, they lose for real, but they just want everyone to believe they did it on purpose.

Okuto
25-08-2011, 14:58
someone talkin bad about my legion? lol

Personally I love the Alpha Legion fluff and Legion only made me love them even more, though I admit the short story in the CSM dex was a bit over the top.

I always assumed that after the hersey when our beloved Legion broke into it's many cells, some of us stayed true to our Primarch's vision and others gave into chaos and openly worshipped those false idols!

I just hate that they keep changing their color scheme lol, though I've repainted the bulk of my alpha legionnaires as Black Legion and begun work on some new Alpha Legion marines

Wyrmwood
25-08-2011, 15:53
I just hate that they keep changing their color scheme lol, though I've repainted the bulk of my alpha legionnaires as Black Legion and begun work on some new Alpha Legion marines
I really like the deep blue/almost black and gunmetal trim of Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3rd Edition, Second Ver.). I don't like the brighter blue and scales.

Drakcore Bloodtear
25-08-2011, 16:58
I always assumed that after the hersey when our beloved Legion broke into it's many cells, some of us stayed true to our Primarch's vision and others gave into chaos and openly worshipped those false idols!


Or maybe due to arrogance, some Legionaries tried to masquerade a devotion to the Dark Gods to baffle the Imperium, however they were fully consumed by Chaos.

It would be a nice to see the AL trying (and sometimes failing) new approaches of deceiving.

spetswalshe
25-08-2011, 19:18
So basically people complain because Alpha Legion are Space Marines?

That's my problem. They'd do much better at the misdirection, infiltration and sabotage thing if they weren't seven-foot walking tanks. Sure, strike teams of such are pretty damn useful, but if spymastering and crazy economic manipulation is your thing then you're better off getting in a nutri-vat and wiring yourself up to the archaeointervoxnet.

Saying that, if they're just going with the 'unusual tactics, subtlety, intelligence, and then kicking the door in and killing everyone' schtick then I'd probably go for them, if I didn't remember them solely as The Ugly Blue And Turquoise Marines.

Although it should be noted the difference between HH and M41; most people reading the HH novels seem to think that's how each Chapter should be in the current day, when I think the DoW depiction is more likely; just another generic warband looking for stuff to kill (especially those cowards who hide in METAL BOXES). Any Legion is going to be utterly debased by then (for the most part) - the 'time runs quicker in the Eye, they're all HH veterans and they haven't changed' excuse doesn't stick unless a Legion were to spend just a few centuries terrorising the galaxy in real time, popping out of the eye for a few weeks every century or so. AFAIK, they're still Space Marines and they're still all war, all the time.

mob16151
25-08-2011, 22:52
You know I've seen a lot of people say, the Alpha Legion are secret good guys. And I've seen a lot of people say that the Alpha legion are bad guys.

I prefer to think that the Alpha Legion are simply working towards their own goal.

For Humanity, but not for the Imperiums version of Humanity.

And you'll also have your run of the mill standard chaos renegades, splinter factions etc.

10,000 years is a long time after all.

DuskRaider
26-08-2011, 01:27
mob is right. One must also remember, Alpharius / Omegon were on their own a lot longer than any other Primarch(s), being the last to be found. They had already developed their own philosophies, ways of waging war, beliefs, etc. I believe it was only 20 years or so before the Heresy itself that they were found by Horus, so these guys are relatively new in the fold, which means they'd be less inclined to let the Emperor influence their actions and ideals.

That being said, I love their recent fluff. It gives them a more mysterious edge. You don't know why these guys are doing what they're doing, nor are you allowed inside their heads unlike in most of the other books. They're an enigma wrapped in a mystery. And I'd like to keep them that way, TBH. Their old reasons for turning seemed so ridiculous and utterly nonsensical, I'm glad Abnett has breathed new life into this Legion.

Wazzahamma
26-08-2011, 01:33
Their old reasons for turning seemed so ridiculous and utterly nonsensical, I'm glad Abnett has breathed new life into this Legion.

The great thing about the way the Alpha Legion IA is written is that it's suggested that almost anything and everything in it is misinformation.

It would make some sense for the legion to spread the "little brother syndrome" about to cover any true motives, especially as the Imperium would eagerly jump on it to denigrate a traitor legion.

That, or the Imperium truly saw that as the Alpha Legion's reasons for turning, and the Alpha Legion simply played up the idea, twisting it to their own advantage.

jareddm3
26-08-2011, 03:15
On the issue of space marines being sneaky and spreading misinformation, the Alpha Legion specialize in most other legions wouldn't even think of doing, painting themselves up as a different space marine! Yes they're 7 feet tall, but if an Alpha Legionaire disguised as an Ultramarine, decked out in all sorts of honors comes walking up to IG command and requests access to the operations files, VERY few people would deny him that.

That said, I don't feel that modern 40k AL are good guys at all. It's like those old deep deep undercover stories. You go so far under that you forget what the truth is. I imagine post-heresy, only the highest ranking AL actually knew what their goal was in terms of saving humanity. If they happened to die in battle or through some accident, that secret is lost forever and the remaining AL are as traitorous as any other fallen legion. This is the tragedy of the Alpha Legion in my eyes.

MontytheMighty
26-08-2011, 04:08
Yes they're 7 feet tall, but if an Alpha Legionaire disguised as an Ultramarine, decked out in all sorts of honors comes walking up to IG command and requests access to the operations files, VERY few people would deny him that.
that little trick would get old fast

I think its implied that they do all sorts of infiltration through human agents
I'm pretty sure human agents are their bread and butter

Freak Ona Leash
26-08-2011, 04:12
I don't know why all of these ideas couldn't be correct. 10,000 years is a LONG time. Are some of the Alpha Legion chaos-worshippers and chaos-aligned? Without a doubt many are. Are there others whom fight for (or at least believe they fight for) the Emperor or Imperium or Humanity? Certainly there could be. I like to think that the Hydra has so many heads that many of them don't even recognize each other or are outright opposed to one another.

jareddm3
26-08-2011, 04:47
that little trick would get old fast

I think its implied that they do all sorts of infiltration through human agents
I'm pretty sure human agents are their bread and butter

Worked on the Dark Angels and Crimson Consuls at the very least. While their human agents certainly can do a lot for them, for a legion known for their infiltration, I doubt disguising themselves in order to perform infiltration is going to get old.

MontytheMighty
26-08-2011, 04:56
Worked on the Dark Angels and Crimson Consuls at the very least. While their human agents certainly can do a lot for them, for a legion known for their infiltration, I doubt disguising themselves in order to perform infiltration is going to get old.
sounds like the idea is dependent on contrived stupidity on the loyalists' part...are measures for verifying Astartes authenticity/identity that easy to get around? wouldn't the loyalists wise up after a few infiltrations?
just my opinion

jareddm3
26-08-2011, 05:13
sounds like the idea is dependent on contrived stupidity on the loyalists' part...are measures for verifying Astartes authenticity/identity that easy to get around? wouldn't the loyalists wise up after a few infiltrations?
just my opinion

*Shrugs* Depends. We don't really know what kind of technology the Alpha Legion has access to. Facial reconfigurations, authenticity codes, setting up human serfs in the chapter beforehand. When your entire legion is based around a concept, you tend to be really good at it. Besides, it's a big galaxy and word spreads incredibly slowly, if at all. No reason to hit the same chapter or organization twice in a row.

Harwammer
26-08-2011, 10:27
wouldn't the loyalists wise up after a few infiltrations?They wouldn't if they don't often realise they've been infiltrated. Indeed even if they realise an infiltration may have occurred they may not know the how/what/where/when/why behind it.

Edit: having AL agents infiltrating imperial organisations is little more stupid than inquisition agents infiltrating chaos organisations.

Iskandar
26-08-2011, 10:32
I imagine that people got tired of Alpha Legion fluff in the same way as they used to get tired of Tzeentch cults back in the day insofar as they'd lose a millennium's worth of planning, equipment and resources but, hey it's all "part of the plan". Personally I don't agree with either interpretation but, in the latter case, that's a story for another time.

The idea that the Librarians of the subverted chapter missing the corruption in the subconsciousness isn't the flaw to their fall, it's entirely the point: if a chapter's Librarians, the guys supposedly in charge of duties as mundane as selection and recruitment to awe inspiring activities as warp manipulation can't easily detect the subtle Alpha Legion flaws, then neither, by extension, can they detect an offer too good to be true whispered by a helpful voice. Which leads me on to the wider point.

Their targets always seem to be picked with more purpose unlike most other threats to the Imperium. Necron raisings and Tyranid invasions exist to feed and, in the case of Genestealer cults, be fed on, Ork and Dark Eldar raids occur for ***** and giggles, Eldar activities bourne out of desperation and Chaos incursions exist at the whims of individuals and/or entities. The Legion apparently has none of this drive, their activities more subtle and with more purpose. They rarely, if ever go on Crusades, neither are they wholly subsumed by the Warp (given the relative lack of Daemon involvement in their activities). They focus on the Ultramarines to draw them to their line of thinking. The battle in which Alpharius was apparently killed by Guilliman was as much a victory for the Legion as the Ultramarines as they finally made the Smurfs think outside the box. The wider picture is that as a Legion, they choose their targets carefully against the Imperium but do not seem to make outright galaxy wide conspiracies derived from a whim or an instinct.

I see Alpha Legion as 40k's version of Revan from KOTOR in that they are ruthlessly pragmatic, and that they are indeed the bad guys thinking that they're doing good (yet at the same time surrounded by meatheads like Malak who just exist to blow **** up). Which leads on to the next point.

I see the Legion as being similar to the Dark Angels insofar as both are likely to have separate circles each with their own respective knowledge of "the big picture". Before anyone comments, I also see that the "big picture" might be deeply flawed. The Dark Angels might well be the bad guys of Caliban and the Alpha Legion might be horribly horribly wrong in trusting some random xenos organisation. The outer core, distant from the inner circle, are little better than Chaos Legionnaires and are used as fodder or distractions, quite like Malak. The inner core however are more enigmatic. Their motives are as shrouded in secrecy and contradiction as an Eldar Farseer. But which of the circles is are present at a fight? Who knows and that adds to their mystery.

On Tartarus for instance, the detachment might simply be a rogue group who were Alpha Legion in name and colour only. Ignorant of the wider motives behind the Legion they were sent there, or maybe even arrived there to kick up mischief. Or perhaps their motives were deeper. Perhaps they wanted the events which drew out to happen as the alternative was far worse. Maybe they saw something the Eldar did not. Maybe they didn't want the Maledictum to return to the Warp for whatever reason. Maybe their decision to send that particular detachment was to purge their own ranks of bad blood. Indeed when was the last time an Alpha Legionnaire became possessed by a Daemon Prince?

At a stretch perhaps they envisaged that the Blood Ravens were an easily corruptible chapter and wanted to bleed the bad blood. In essence that's what ultimately happened in the series. Assuming the Blood Ravens actually survive, they'll be stronger and more loyal for it. Assuming they die, they were unworthy in the first place and likely to have turned rogue had the events not borne out as they did.

Of course a lot of this is ungrounded as there isn't a whole lot of information about the Legion. But that's what makes them, as a whole, so interesting and a lot more interesting than Tzeentchan machinations which purely exist for the vanity of said chaos god.

Okuto
26-08-2011, 19:14
Those idol worshipping whelps deserved to die lol.

I like to think the Alpha Legion over the years split into many camps of thought and basically broke away from one another though I believe those of us in the camp of following our primarch's vision are basically just concerned about general survival....

I mean if I were in the "stay true to the primarch's vision" camp of the alpha legion then at this point I'd just be more concerned about the legion's overall survival. I'd have the network keep us informed of imperial movement so we can avoid heavy losses and know when to raid them for supplies.

The main reason I like them is out of all the traitor legions they are the most professional imo and it doesnt hurt that Gulliman has a special dislike of us which I'm loving.

flota
26-08-2011, 19:25
s the remaining AL are as traitorous as any other fallen legion. This is the tragedy of the Alpha Legion in my eyes.

i believe this aswell

Xisor
26-08-2011, 20:13
I think it bears repeating that Legion, Chapter 7 features the Alpha Legion basically openly discussing that they aren't that invested in the Emperor's Utopia. They're loyal to the Imperium, to an extend, but they're ultimate loyalty is to the species. It puts their 'final decision' in Legion into perspective, certainly, but also informs their long-term plan: if their legion is infused with that sort of thinking from the beginning (e.g. they've got abstract ultimate goal views, then everything else derives from or informs that, to an extent).

To that extent, I found the likes of Hunt for Voldemort slightly disappointing. There's no insight into how things got to where they are. But I say that's disappointing, it's also fairly refreshing: 10k years is a very long time, as many have noted. The Alpha Legion of 40k are surely as diverse, varied and working to esoteric/odd/conflicting goals as the Inquisition itself. Many are blatant, many are conspiring, many are uncaring of what goes on in the galaxy.

The outlook initially is that Chaos isn't to be embraced, but that it can't be denied either. How individual legion cells operate independently, that's a lot of room for schisming and diverging creeds/objectives/methods.

Excessus
26-08-2011, 20:15
The idea that the Librarians of the subverted chapter missing the corruption in the subconsciousness isn't the flaw to their fall, it's entirely the point: if a chapter's Librarians, the guys supposedly in charge of duties as mundane as selection and recruitment to awe inspiring activities as warp manipulation can't easily detect the subtle Alpha Legion flaws, then neither, by extension, can they detect an offer too good to be true whispered by a helpful voice. Which leads me on to the wider point.

Well, the fluff about it states that many were in fact discovered and denied, but some got through the net. So it's likely that during the three hundred years there would be a large number of future traitors accumulating in their ranks, slowly but surely filling up the squads and various positions at a natural pace until even high positions like captains might have been taken by a future traitor...

...who knows, even the chapter master might have been one...