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Lorex
23-08-2011, 14:18
Hey all i need some help.
So if unit A are the charge by unit B and C.
As you can see unit C is in the flank arc on unit A. So what will happen. Unit C cant fit becuse the house is in the way.
Is it gonna be a faild charge or do they move to the front arc???

hamsterwheel
23-08-2011, 14:35
Unit C cannot make contact with only a 90 degree wheel so it's a failed charge.

Lorex
23-08-2011, 14:52
So the hole unit must fit between the wall and the unit?

hamsterwheel
23-08-2011, 15:12
So the hole unit must fit between the wall and the unit?

Nevermind, I took a closer look at the picture. I originally thought the bottom of unit A was in line with the lowest part of the building but that appears to be just open ground around the building. Both unit C and B can make charges, since they're both charging on the same turn, you have to attempt to maximize contact between both sets of units. When unit C charges, it appears that it will only clip corner to corner with unit A, there is no way for it to close the door while remaining in the flank, nor is there anyway of unit A closing the door while retaining it's facing. Unit B will have close to a straight charge.

Yrrdead
23-08-2011, 18:33
I don't see how Unit C can make that charge. Buildings are impassable terrain. Unit C cannot make contact with Unit A's flank in this situation. Unit C can't/shouldn't be allowed to declare a charge in this case.

So to directly answer your question; It is a failed charge.


@hamsterwheel ; You were correct originally. There is no way(that I see) for Unit C to make a successful charge into Unit A's flank, even by clipping.

hamsterwheel
23-08-2011, 18:41
@hamsterwheel ; You were correct originally. There is no way(that I see) for Unit C to make a successful charge into Unit A's flank, even by clipping.

I was thinking that if unit C went forward until it hit the building and then turned and followed the angle of the building that it might be able to clip a corner on unit A but I can't be certain until it's tried.

Yrrdead
23-08-2011, 18:50
Part of my reasoning is also due to the phrasing of the OP which was "failed charge or do they move to the front arc".

Additionally there is a decent argument that a clip in this case is still a failed charge as it doesn't complete all the conditions of a charge (one of which is closing the door).

T'Green T'Bad T'Ugly
24-08-2011, 07:28
I would say the charge is possible.

please excuse the quality of my pic, graphic-art isnt my strong point!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/ljay1973/chargecomplete.jpg
(sorry, can't seem to get the Picture showing in the reply)

Unit C rotates slightly anti-clockwise (to position shown by green box)
Unit C follows the red line
Unit B charges straight forward (having the saem size frontage as Unit A, they will end up 'square' )
All Units end up as indicated by the yellow boxes, this leaves Unit C having 1 model in base contact.

Mercules
24-08-2011, 13:01
The answer is: Maybe

It is certainly possible both units could make it if C can Wheel just enough to miss the building and hit the unit and then "close the door" and line up perpendicular to them. It looks plausible but only careful movement will make it possible. This is one of those times when you will want to mark the position of C before beginning to move it as it is likely you will wheel too far or too little when trying to line it up and it is good to be sure you have your starting position clearly set so that no one accuses anyone else of nudging the unit while trying to make the charge.

theunwantedbeing
24-08-2011, 13:35
Unit C rotates slightly anti-clockwise (to position shown by green box)

Rotating isn't allowed.
You can only Wheel.

However it does look like the unit will fit, but the movement tray is what causes it to foul on the building.

T'Green T'Bad T'Ugly
24-08-2011, 13:46
Rotating isn't allowed.
You can only Wheel.

However it does look like the unit will fit, but the movement tray is what causes it to foul on the building.


isn't wheel just another term for rotate?

Mercules
24-08-2011, 13:54
isn't wheel just another term for rotate?

Not even close.

in Warhammer terms Rotate typically means around the center while a Wheel happens at one or the other front corners. "Rotate the unit directly away..."

T'Green T'Bad T'Ugly
24-08-2011, 14:16
Not even close.

in Warhammer terms Rotate typically means around the center while a Wheel happens at one or the other front corners. "Rotate the unit directly away..."

I thank you for the correction.
I had always took the meaning of 'wheel' from the army definition which is any change in facing that keeps a formation (the British naval definiton takes this further and a wheel for them is a change in direciton that keeps the formation while not moving the position of its centre).
But, having read your comment (and looking up the specific rule on page 14 of the rulebook) i see that yet again GW have their own definition of terms!

So, having looked again at the picture, I would say that the charge is still possible as you could wheel enough to miss the building and still make contact with the enemy unit with one model

Zentdiam
25-08-2011, 16:24
Just for the record too. I believe it is impossible for anything to be within 1" of a building without being in it. So both A and C are prob in illegal positions to begin with. Just something to think about.

Mercules
25-08-2011, 16:39
That depends on if they are playing the "base" as part of the building or only the walls. By the walls it looks like they might both be right at 1" even though they touch the base of the model.

jaxom
25-08-2011, 16:58
Regardless, unit C cannot charge unit A. Unit C would have to wheel twice to do anything more than clip a corner. If unit C just wheels clockwise until it clips then the next part of the charge rules would require one of the two units to close the door but there is a house in the way. No way to close the door, ergo a failed charge by rules. Unit B is just a red herring here since it cannot affect the legality of C's charge in any way.

Surgency
25-08-2011, 17:38
Just for the record too. I believe it is impossible for anything to be within 1" of a building without being in it. So both A and C are prob in illegal positions to begin with. Just something to think about.

This rule doesn't exist. You could feasibly put the edge of your unit by the building, and still not enter it. Whether they play as the buildings edge is the wall, or the edge of the base is up to the group, and will determine if the charge is possible in the given picture

Mercules
25-08-2011, 18:27
Regardless, unit C cannot charge unit A. Unit C would have to wheel twice to do anything more than clip a corner. If unit C just wheels clockwise until it clips then the next part of the charge rules would require one of the two units to close the door but there is a house in the way. No way to close the door, ergo a failed charge by rules. Unit B is just a red herring here since it cannot affect the legality of C's charge in any way.

Why do you believe there is no way to Close the Door since Closing the Door simply means aligning the units and you can certainly be parallel to the side you have charged even when corner to corner?

Yrrdead
25-08-2011, 18:43
This rule doesn't exist. You could feasibly put the edge of your unit by the building, and still not enter it. Whether they play as the buildings edge is the wall, or the edge of the base is up to the group, and will determine if the charge is possible in the given picture

The 1" rule applies to impassable terrain which a building is(p13). Of course I realize that some groups treat the 1" rule differently than others.

Mercules
25-08-2011, 19:07
The 1" rule applies to impassable terrain which a building is(p13). Of course I realize that some groups treat the 1" rule differently than others.

Not during a charge.

Yrrdead
25-08-2011, 22:12
Did I say it did? I was simply correcting Surgency who says that "This rule doesn't exist."

Zentdiam
26-08-2011, 00:53
Sorry was not at home so didn't want to quote the passage yet. In the BRB FAQ it states

Q: Can a model move within an inch of a building without
garrisoning it? (p126)
A: No.

So technically one can not even charge to within an inch and if you finish within an inch it is an illegal move, thusly you can not perform the charge.

So in the scenario provided, technically the unit next to the building could not charge as it would bring it within an inch of the building. (Assuming that A was one inch away to begin with.)

Yrrdead
26-08-2011, 01:22
Zentdiam - That FAQ Q&A was to clarify that buildings are counted as impassable terrain for the 1" rule. If you look at pg126 (as referenced by the FAQ) you will see that the sentence classifying buildings as Impassable terrain is slightly ambigious. Which this FAQ is clearing up.

You still ignore the 1" rule while charging.

Surgency
26-08-2011, 02:03
The 1" rule applies to impassable terrain which a building is(p13). Of course I realize that some groups treat the 1" rule differently than others.

hmm. I was looking under the rules for buildings. Whoops

jaxom
26-08-2011, 15:57
Why do you believe there is no way to Close the Door since Closing the Door simply means aligning the units and you can certainly be parallel to the side you have charged even when corner to corner?

I do not believe that the unit can make contact if it wheels counterclockwise. As I stated, the only way that I believe it can make contact from the picture shown is to wheel clockwise. If it does so then the only way to close the door is to pick the building up and remove it from the table.

If you believe that it is possible to make contact by wheeling counterclockwise with unit C and then moving straight forward to clip corner-to-corner then you could "close the door" by aligning unit C with the flank of unit A. Based on what I see though, if you try to wheel counterclockwise you are going to clip the building anyway. I suppose that could be a trick of perspective from the picture though.

BEEGfrog
26-08-2011, 16:02
Not during a charge.

I was going to say that!

Providing the unit "C":
1)- only wheels at the start of its charge move
2)- and then can move in a straight line to contact unit "A"
3)- and the shortest distance between the two units is less than or equal to C's charge move (pg19)
4)- and there is nothing to prevent C from closing the door i.e, wheeling C to be perpendicular to the appropriate face of A (or if there is an obstacle, nothing to prevent A wheeling instead):

then the charge is successful.

You now need to work out how many models of A and C are placed in contact. The rule given in the rulebook (pg20) for this is that the initial wheel see step 1) above is where maximisation occurs. As the only wheel that allows a legal contact only allows 1 model to contact then this is the maximisation for this combat.

Mercules
26-08-2011, 16:10
I do not believe that the unit can make contact if it wheels counterclockwise. As I stated, the only way that I believe it can make contact from the picture shown is to wheel clockwise. If it does so then the only way to close the door is to pick the building up and remove it from the table.

If you believe that it is possible to make contact by wheeling counterclockwise with unit C and then moving straight forward to clip corner-to-corner then you could "close the door" by aligning unit C with the flank of unit A. Based on what I see though, if you try to wheel counterclockwise you are going to clip the building anyway. I suppose that could be a trick of perspective from the picture though.

Ah, see I do believe it is possible to wheel and clip the unit without clipping the building. That is why I said it would be tricky and was a "maybe".

N1AK
31-08-2011, 13:15
Hey all i need some help.
So if unit A are the charge by unit B and C.
As you can see unit C is in the flank arc on unit A. So what will happen. Unit C cant fit becuse the house is in the way.
Is it gonna be a faild charge or do they move to the front arc???

Assuming the unit can move such that it hits the flank of the target unit it can charge. What I'm not sure on, and I don't have the book with me is how the units would then be moved.

Obviously you can't just move unit C up and use it to 'close the door' due to the building. I believe the rules cover this. What you should be doing is rotating the charged unit instead.

Lorex
31-08-2011, 13:26
Ok so we have all kinde of answers. A unit can only wheel 90 degree?

jaxom
31-08-2011, 16:02
Assuming the unit can move such that it hits the flank of the target unit it can charge. What I'm not sure on, and I don't have the book with me is how the units would then be moved.

Obviously you can't just move unit C up and use it to 'close the door' due to the building. I believe the rules cover this. What you should be doing is rotating the charged unit instead.

You cannot hit the charged unit in the front. The concept of sliding is gone so that's not going to happen. Actual rotation is not allowed, all you can do is close the door which means move until a unit makes contact and then swing like that point of contact is a hinge.

The only way you could make a charge with unit C (and I don't think this is possible but others seem to, see Mercules' comment) is to wheel less than 90 degrees counterclockwise with unit C and then move forward until the front, right corner of unit C makes contact with unit A. At that point, unit C will then Close the Door to wind up flush with the flank of unit A. If it cannot make contact in this fasion then there is no way for either unit to actually Close the Door and we know that is a failed charge.

Be very careful with words like "rotate" and "slide" which have different meaning and are *not* closing the door since they are no longer valid.

Mr_Rose
31-08-2011, 16:14
Ok so we have all kinde of answers. A unit can only wheel 90 degree?
During a charge? Yes, because that's what the charging rules say. One wheel of up to 90 degrees.
Closing the door is additional to this, free, and unlimited.